Ren'Py Summertime Saga [v21.0.0 wip.5605] [Kompas Productions]

[wolfpackjac3]

Tracker was never accurate and didn't get updated for months. Any rando that pays for the "expanded" tracker could tell us why they doubled some of the tasks. And they're not adding new coders : it's taking them a decade to recode because they let 4-5 dudes code junk on top of each other since the game launched, they're not doing the same thing again

This answer and "reason" for not having multiple programers displays an immense lack of understanding of programming large projects by the dev. Having 5 ppl code separately from each other over years of coding has NOTHING to do with a team coding a project together at the same time. Every company working with moderate budgets use teams of coders. It creates BETTER code that is best practice and multiple people catch mistakes and bad ideas that one person creates. Astoundingly bad idea to have one programmer but sure, defend it. It's taking a decade because one person is doing the work of 3.

 

[MurkyTurtle]

This answer and "reason" for not having multiple programers displays an immense lack of understanding of programming large projects. Having 5 ppl code separately from each other over years of coding has NOTHING to do with a team coding a project together at the same time. Every company working with moderate budgets use teams of coders. It creates BETTER code that is best practice and multiple people catch mistakes and bad ideas that one person creates. Astoundingly bad idea to have one programmer but sure, defend it. It's taking a decade because one person is doing the work of 3.

Screaming into the void here, mate. DC's refusal to hire more people even as he expands the scope and ambition of the game has been well-documented. He did at one point in time have multiple coders, but has dropped to just one for reasons unknown; I suspect he either doesn't attract or is unwilling to pay for top-flight talent. "Adult game dev" may not look that good on a resume

I honestly think the situation is even worse than the tracker indicates. Even with just one person working the code it shouldn't have taken this long to re-make the game when they were starting with a nearly complete set of assets and a working example. The fact that the tracker nearly stalled for several months and they went suspiciously quiet on how the tech update was going suggests that a lot of work has needed to be thrown out at least once. I'm not even sure if the art is actually done; DC was on stream less than two weeks ago (4/27) expanding existing mini-game art assets to widescreen.

 

[Omnikuken]

This answer and "reason" for not having multiple programers displays an immense lack of understanding of programming large projects by the dev. Having 5 ppl code separately from each other over years of coding has NOTHING to do with a team coding a project together at the same time. Every company working with moderate budgets use teams of coders. It creates BETTER code that is best practice and multiple people catch mistakes and bad ideas that one person creates. Astoundingly bad idea to have one programmer but sure, defend it. It's taking a decade because one person is doing the work of 3.

As turtle above said : whining about it here does nothing. Grab your face and go scream at the Discord/stream, maybe there some1 will notice you (probably seconds before banning you too). And where in my reply is there anything pretending to defend what DC and co are doing ? Stating facts and listing stuff isn't defending anything, keep trying though

 

[srksrk 68]

DC's refusal

If I throw an increadulous amount of money at you, out of my free will, without you forcing me to, and say "Do this!", would you do it? Even though I know exactly what you promised to do, and did, when you got a significant lower amount already? I guess not.

well-documented.

Not good enough, apparently.

has dropped to just one for reasons unknown

He did not "drop" to one, he never fired one except once, and that has had reasons.

 

[jimmyjambles]

I feel like this is because of the coding bottleneck that is apparent. Also, unrelated to what you said, paying more people to code the game does NOT cost a lot more since it cuts the time they are working. You pay two people to get the job done in half the time.... You may have to pay a small extra premium and that is it.

It turns out that the overwhelming majority of DC's income is probably getting eaten by processing fees. He made the unusual move of making the game fully available at the $1 tier, whereas pretty much everyone else on Patreon will only give you access to the news feed and a Discord channel. It's safe to assume that the lion's share of his followers are subbing at a level where he nets a very modest amount. Then if he's located in the US, the IRS is making him pay self-employed income tax.

At some point, you do make it up on volume. But don't be surprised if he's still only making enough to barely keep the lights on. He could have twice as many subs as he does not and still not be able to afford a full-time coder or other personnel, because of the way he structured his sub levels.

 

[Omnikuken]

It turns out that the overwhelming majority of DC's income is probably getting eaten by processing fees. He made the unusual move of making the game fully available at the $1 tier, whereas pretty much everyone else on Patreon will only give you access to the news feed and a Discord channel. It's safe to assume that the lion's share of his followers are subbing at a level where he nets a very modest amount. Then if he's located in the US, the IRS is making him pay self-employed income tax.

At some point, you do make it up on volume. But don't be surprised if he's still only making enough to barely keep the lights on. He could have twice as many subs as he does not and still not be able to afford a full-time coder or other personnel, because of the way he structured his sub levels.

Game is free to every1 .... Subbing only gives you a private link for the 1st 24h of release, access to some secret Discord channel and voting in polls. And the average duder is "paying" ~3$ a month

 

[wolfpackjac3]

As turtle above said : whining about it here does nothing. Grab your face and go scream at the Discord/stream, maybe there some1 will notice you (probably seconds before banning you too). And where in my reply is there anything pretending to defend what DC and co are doing ? Stating facts and listing stuff isn't defending anything, keep trying though

Was just trying to have a reasonable discussion but yeah, gaslight that im whining. Educate yourself before speaking about coding again because you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Count Morado]

Was just trying to have a reasonable discussion

Sorry, I was going to keep silent and let you whine and throw your tantrum and have others reply to you .... But you thought your tone throughout this conversation was REASONABLE? What the fuck do you call unreasonable? Holy fucking shit.

You talk shit, don't have any facts or basis to make your claims. You don't have the resumes of the people involved on DC's team, you have very little knowledge of the development history of the game, you don't sit in on their meetings, you don't have access to their Trello or whatever project management solution they utilize. You have made statements which show you have little-to-no experience in contract hiring and negotiations, budgeting of projects, or the like. All you do is rant and rave from a Dunning-Krueger level of expertise. But ...

 

[ImTransAndTiny]

Every company working with moderate budgets use teams of coders. It creates BETTER code that is best practice and multiple people catch mistakes and bad ideas that one person creates. Astoundingly bad idea to have one programmer but sure, defend it. It's taking a decade because one person is doing the work of 3.

It depends on the programmers. I recently started a new job where I'm the sole programmer. My employer had been using multiple part-time coders before realizing that it was better to have a single, dedicated coder. Now I'm undoing the mistakes of three or four people who didn't know what they were doing. One competent programmer is better than a team of incompetent ones.

 

[Omnikuken]

It depends on the programmers. I recently started a new job where I'm the sole programmer. My employer had been using multiple part-time coders before realizing that it was better to have a single, dedicated coder. Now I'm undoing the mistakes of three or four people who didn't know what they were doing. One competent programmer is better than a team of incompetent ones.

Come back in over a year telling us how unfucking the others' work didn't take over a year and you were expecting to finish everything within 3-4 months, with no unforeseen junk that needed to be added to the list. Then keep a tally of every duder telling you what ever you're doing, they'd have finished in ~2 weeks, get paid for nothing and you're actually wasting their time over a free game they barely know exists ....... (/mega-extreme-sarcasm depicting what happens in here)

Was just trying to have a reasonable discussion but yeah, gaslight that im whining. Educate yourself before speaking about coding again because you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

Gotta love how telling you to go to the place where people might actually care enough about your "visions for coding" somehow translates into my own coding ability. Then I was wondering why you were already on the blacklist .......

 

[Heycock]

It turns out that the overwhelming majority of DC's income is probably getting eaten by processing fees. He made the unusual move of making the game fully available at the $1 tier, whereas pretty much everyone else on Patreon will only give you access to the news feed and a Discord channel. It's safe to assume that the lion's share of his followers are subbing at a level where he nets a very modest amount. Then if he's located in the US, the IRS is making him pay self-employed income tax.

At some point, you do make it up on volume. But don't be surprised if he's still only making enough to barely keep the lights on. He could have twice as many subs as he does not and still not be able to afford a full-time coder or other personnel, because of the way he structured his sub levels.

The team is making around 100 grands a month, or 1 millon a year. Some devs here work for less than 500 dollars a month. DC could easily pay a team of 5 guys if he wanted. If not from USA from anywere in the world were 500 dollars is actually a good income. And even then he would still have 98% of the earnings. He could actually pay 5 grands to 5 different people and still get 75% of the earnings. And 5 thouthands dollars is what the salary of the presidents of my country.

 

[Omnikuken]

The team is making around 100 grands a month, or 1 millon a year. Some devs here work for less than 500 dollars a month. DC could easily pay a team of 5 guys if he wanted. If not from USA from anywere in the world were 500 dollars is actually a good income. And even then he would still have 98% of the earnings. He could actually pay 5 grands to 5 different people and still get 75% of the earnings. And 5 thouthands dollars is what the salary of the presidents of my country.

Weird self-loathing disguised as milking, but at least it's an original take. Grats

 

[Heycock]

Weird self-loathing disguised as milking, but at least it's an original take. Grats

Sorry, not sure what you meant but I didn't say he is milking noone. I don't know what the fuck is going on with this people but I reserve that word for guys like Icstor.

I honestely would like to know why they got in this mess couse more I know about how the game code works it makes less sense to me.

 

[Count Morado]

The team is making around 100 grands a month, or 1 millon a year. Some devs here work for less than 500 dollars a month. DC could easily pay a team of 5 guys if he wanted. If not from USA from anywere in the world were 500 dollars is actually a good income. And even then he would still have 98% of the earnings. He could actually pay 5 grands to 5 different people and still get 75% of the earnings. And 5 thouthands dollars is what the salary of the presidents of my country.

Well, hey! Last I heard - It is a team of 5 people: DC, 2 posers, 1 coder, 1 writer. ( I could be off - but going by what's been presented in this thread)

Your math is off for monthly (but about correct for annual) - it maxes out at 80k USD per month gross (currently) - after Patreon's cut, currency conversion fees, credit card processing fees, national income tax, website hosting, software and app costs, other technology purchases/repairs/upgrades, accountant fees, other expenses related to running a business (before paying 4 other people on contract) - you're looking at about 35k USD per month. Now from that comes salaries, etc etc etc etc.

Spoiler: Minutiae

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For a small business of 5 staff members - a $1 million USD annual income isn't unheard of after 6 years of work. In fact, for a semi-successful small business - that's meh. It would have been considered "average" in the US

You must be registered to see the links

. Today, it would be considered underperforming.

But he's doing something correct. He's the #1 Adult Game Creator on Patreon by subscriber numbers - and has been so for years. Where others have flamed out, petered out, abandoned, etc.

I honestely would like to know why they got in this mess couse more I know about how the game code works it makes less sense to me.

It's been covered dozens of times in this thread if you want to read about it. First DC started coding the game when he probably knew less than you do now. Then, over the years, he's had people come in and code the game - mostly adding to the code, not fixing previous code, necessarily. It's a jumbled mess and that is why about a year ago, DC decided to have ONE person go through 6 years of code from various people within the game and bring it all into one style, better optimizing the game and have it ready for future development. This, rather than continue piecemealing it. At the same time, DC decided to take the game toward the 16:9 aspect ratio (away from the 4:3 standard at the time he started developing) for mobile players and to give the city more locations without needing more than one map screen. yada yada yada yada.

 

[wolfpackjac3]

Sorry, I was going to keep silent and let you whine and throw your tantrum and have others reply to you .... But you thought your tone throughout this conversation was REASONABLE? What the fuck do you call unreasonable? Holy fucking shit.

You talk shit, don't have any facts or basis to make your claims. You don't have the resumes of the people involved on DC's team, you have very little knowledge of the development history of the game, you don't sit in on their meetings, you don't have access to their Trello or whatever project management solution they utilize. You have made statements which show you have little-to-no experience in contract hiring and negotiations, budgeting of projects, or the like. All you do is rant and rave from a Dunning-Krueger level of expertise. But ...
View attachment 1804976

You as the bottom and Omni as the top are the ones with unreasonable tone throughout every conversation you have. How the fuck do you as pseudo thread mods think your tone is taken? Even when someone is not a troll and just stating their opinion on a matter, you swoop in like batman and robin with a MASSIVE amount of tone, talk shit, and talk like you have facts on things like how much coding development would cost and why they are in a bind. You are the one with "little-to-no experience in contract hiring and negotiations, budgeting of projects, or the like". I support this game and the dev and just thought one coder was a mistake and shared why I thought why. Its called REASONABLE DISCUSSION.

 

[Heycock]

Well, hey! Last I heard - It is a team of 5 people: DC, 2 posers, 1 coder, 1 writer. ( I could be off - but going by what's been presented in this thread)

Your math is off for monthly (but about correct for annual) - it maxes out at 80k USD per month gross (currently) - after Patreon's cut, currency conversion fees, credit card processing fees, national income tax, website hosting, software and app costs, other technology purchases/repairs/upgrades, accountant fees, other expenses related to running a business (before paying 4 other people on contract) - you're looking at about 35k USD per month. Now from that comes salaries, etc etc etc etc.

Spoiler: Minutiae

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

For a small business of 5 staff members - a $1 million USD annual income isn't unheard of after 6 years of work. In fact, for a semi-successful small business - that's meh. It would have been considered "average" in the US

You must be registered to see the links

. Today, it would be considered underperforming.

But he's doing something correct. He's the #1 Adult Game Creator on Patreon by subscriber numbers - and has been so for years. Where others have flamed out, petered out, abandoned, etc.

It's been covered dozens of times in this thread if you want to read about it. First DC started coding the game when he probably knew less than you do now. Then, over the years, he's had people come in and code the game - mostly adding to the code, not fixing previous code, necessarily. It's a jumbled mess and that is why about a year ago, DC decided to have ONE person go through 6 years of code from various people within the game and bring it all into one style, better optimizing the game and have it ready for future development. This, rather than continue piecemealing it. At the same time, DC decided to take the game toward the 16:9 aspect ratio (away from the 4:3 standard at the time he started developing) for mobile players and to give the city more locations without needing more than one map screen. yada yada yada yada.

I have been reading the arguments here, not everything but some things from time to time.
Ok, it was a little less than 80k last time I checked.
Are you sure about the numbers you are giving?
Couse it's really hard for me to believe this guys spend 45k in doing a game while a lot of devs here work for less than 1k.
Some things you mention barely worth anything. Like software. Wich software? They use renpy and photoshop. The first is free and the second is... what? 10 dollars? They don't need to even buy assets, music or anything.
Now, about the 6 years... it's true, but that can't hardly explain what it's going on now. If something the fact they are doing better should improve their work speed. If the proyect was sustainable for 3 years with a minimum wage, with 80k should go better. If this guy worked on Summertime for 3 years with minimum wage when nobody was doing... ¿What, 10k?, ¿What else did he expected to acomplished? The numbers he has right now should be the maximum of his initial aspiration. I don't see how those numbers could not be, in this field, a completely win.
And yeah, the game it's the number 1 in patreon. That's another reason who makes this wierder. How can you make a mess when you have the golden eggs chicken.
And finally i repeat my statement. Not in the USA but for a lot of people around the world 1k a month is a fortune.

About the second half (that actually i have less clue what's the problem is). The first thing there is: "If it's not broken then don't fix it". The game still works fine. Even if you are a perfeccionist, to lost 4 months ofa proyect valuable like this to fix a mistake that it's not cousing any real trouble...
But let's say at the moment it makes sense, after all just 4 months... Well, as soon as you realize that it's not going to be easy at all then simple change your proyect, make the 16:9 ratio and forget to clean the code. You present the 16:9 ratio as your achieved goal and forget or pospone any cleaning.
Otherwise you get stuck in a position you should avoid. To delay your proyect for a year, a year and a half at its best moment, to fix something it wasn't making any mayor trouble in the begining.
And I don't see how a change in the ratioto 16:9 could be so time demanding for the code. It actually makes more sense for me that it meant a lot more work for art. Even if we consider a 16:9 ratio an important improvement, wich honestely it's not. DC sayd he wanted to change the map and more locations, but then again that's really wierd. Instead of ading a secondary map that you can travel to from the first map... You change the whole game!

Couse this is the main issue for me. As a developer you should try to avoid by any means exactly what's going on with Summertime Saga. To get indefentely delayed at it's peek. That's my take on it.

 

[Omnikuken]

Well, hey! Last I heard - It is a team of 5 people: DC, 2 posers, 1 coder, 1 writer. ( I could be off - but going by what's been presented in this thread)

Your math is off for monthly (but about correct for annual) - it maxes out at 80k USD per month gross (currently) - after Patreon's cut, currency conversion fees, credit card processing fees, national income tax, website hosting, software and app costs, other technology purchases/repairs/upgrades, accountant fees, other expenses related to running a business (before paying 4 other people on contract) - you're looking at about 35k USD per month. Now from that comes salaries, etc etc etc etc.

Spoiler: Minutiae

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

For a small business of 5 staff members - a $1 million USD annual income isn't unheard of after 6 years of work. In fact, for a semi-successful small business - that's meh. It would have been considered "average" in the US

You must be registered to see the links

. Today, it would be considered underperforming.

But he's doing something correct. He's the #1 Adult Game Creator on Patreon by subscriber numbers - and has been so for years. Where others have flamed out, petered out, abandoned, etc.

It's been covered dozens of times in this thread if you want to read about it. First DC started coding the game when he probably knew less than you do now. Then, over the years, he's had people come in and code the game - mostly adding to the code, not fixing previous code, necessarily. It's a jumbled mess and that is why about a year ago, DC decided to have ONE person go through 6 years of code from various people within the game and bring it all into one style, better optimizing the game and have it ready for future development. This, rather than continue piecemealing it. At the same time, DC decided to take the game toward the 16:9 aspect ratio (away from the 4:3 standard at the time he started developing) for mobile players and to give the city more locations without needing more than one map screen. yada yada yada yada.

Pleb, it's 3 coders (possibly the music dude and the website admin/host too) and the amount of $/month shown on Patreon is after they take their cut

 

[JC9750]

is there an incest patch available for the 20.14 update please?

 

[ImTransAndTiny]

is there an incest patch available for the 20.14 update please?

There's no need for one, since there is no new Jenny/Debbie/Tammy content. The old one didn't need to be updated.

 

[Omnikuken]

There's no need for one, since there is no new Jenny/Debbie/Tammy content. The old one didn't need to be updated.

Hope you're prepared to repeat that a few times a week for the next 3+ years, cause no1 will read it and keep asking the same thing anyway