due to variables getting out of hand (how would WW handle limber stats lol) im leaning towards shopkeep item somehow triggering an evolution for them or if MC can calm tf down and keep cole away for literally a minute I still dont see a reason why he couldnt just "heal" both of them without much difficulty
- Thread starter WeirdWorld
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- Jul 28, 2017
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- Jul 13, 2021
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By shared evolution I mean the Twin connection triggering an evolution in both. If for example Amber survives and sees Liz's corpse, it's likely that the mental load will cause her to evolve, which may trigger a Liz evolution too. I don't subscribe to the fusion theory, at least not in the way most of the supporters think about it.
I think that instead of amber seeing liz it will have something to with the item shopkeep gave them but otherwise agree, beyond memes I dont have much faith in fusion....MAYBE a temp one (would "revive" them, could give us preview to their late/endgame powers, would make the fight more interesting than a recently powered up MC beating up someone just at his level.
- Jun 22, 2017
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Considering that they would evolve straight to lvl 3 a temporary fusion could be a great power to have, the minyaks could so it's possible for monsters at least, though they are from a completely different origin than Amber/Liz.
Temporary fusion seems the best of both worlds.
- Sep 27, 2017
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Liz and Amber will live the most likely cause of them living is the fact they are spawn of the Strength Eaters which are aptly named as they absorb the power of those around them and Liz and Amber have the perfect energy source in the MC and Cole who are going to be fighting right there in proximity to them. Also there is the fact they have those ear rings from shop keep which probably link their powers together in some weird way as the Shopkeep seems to know everything even whats going to happen in the future and sells people the items they need in response to that.
pretty sure the strength eaters need to be "alive" to eat
Shopkeep is interesting.... but i disagree that he "knows everything" (or is more plot reliant/strapped than deus), even if you ignore "joke stuff" like him calling MC charlie (despite him knowing that he would be selling to charlie and that MC and charlie would know each other), why does he only indirectly interact with "weak" people (aka no level 5s) despite multiple of his items directly involving/impacting them? (Shopkeep helping charlie indirectly pushed charlie towards leaving sin, the whole rune thing for henri) if he knows all, can go between the matieral and immaterial and can get anicent (sky/sea) parts, why arent zak/deus aware? Or does deus allow shopkeep to get away with stuff because deus knows its pushes MC towards what he wants? That doesnt explain why zak (pre injury/now) is allowing a third party to influnece stuff as heavily as he is
IMO shopkeep is something/one that "shouldnt exsist" rather than another very powerful "deus ex machina" it wouldnt really change much about his character the only thing it would really chnage is he doesnt interact with strong people because they are likely to know what/who he is and they might not allow him to keep doing what he is doing.
Whose the strongest person we have seen directly interact with him? Is it MC/Met/Charlie at level 3? Im pretty sure if you help henri MC only make a mention of shopkeep to him and even then henri seems like the most likely "strong person" to not care what shopkeep means/could represent
- Feb 22, 2019
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Well, we have seen Deus interact with the shopkeep and he bullied him, he's technically a lv 4 but a mad strong one. Though IIRC Henri should've already interacted with himpretty sure the strength eaters need to be "alive" to eat
Shopkeep is interesting.... but i disagree that he "knows everything" (or is more plot reliant/strapped than deus), even if you ignore "joke stuff" like him calling MC charlie (despite him knowing that he would be selling to charlie and that MC and charlie would know each other), why does he only indirectly interact with "weak" people (aka no level 5s) despite multiple of his items directly involving/impacting them? (Shopkeep helping charlie indirectly pushed charlie towards leaving sin, the whole rune thing for henri) if he knows all, can go between the matieral and immaterial and can get anicent (sky/sea) parts, why arent zak/deus aware? Or does deus allow shopkeep to get away with stuff because deus knows its pushes MC towards what he wants? That doesnt explain why zak (pre injury/now) is allowing a third party to influnece stuff as heavily as he is
IMO shopkeep is something/one that "shouldnt exsist" rather than another very powerful "deus ex machina" it wouldnt really change much about his character the only thing it would really chnage is he doesnt interact with strong people because they are likely to know what/who he is and they might not allow him to keep doing what he is doing.
Whose the strongest person we have seen directly interact with him? Is it MC/Met/Charlie at level 3? Im pretty sure if you help henri MC only make a mention of shopkeep to him and even then henri seems like the most likely "strong person" to not care what shopkeep means/could represent
- Apr 17, 2024
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Can Liz and Amber eat strength? Tanos says that the Strength Eaters' power is to teleport through water, and that their energy absorption is "something quite different". That kind of makes it sound like it's not an innate ability of theirs, and that Liz and Amber wouldn't inherit it.
Henri has interacted with him, yeah. We see Henri in Shopkeep's shop at one point, asking him "hey, you look weird, are you a really corrupted superhuman, too?". Which is just rude, Henri.
Like i said "deus could be allowing shopkeep", I guess shopkeep didnt offer him the rune becuase Herni was rude
but "logically" it still kind of hurts the idea that shopkeep knows everything (in the same way deus does at least)
- Feb 22, 2019
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Could be that, or maybe he didn't give it to him 'cause it wouldn't have worked or it could only work in the dream realmLike i said "deus could be allowing shopkeep", I guess shopkeep didnt offer him the rune becuase Herni was rude
IIRC you buy the monster can in the real world but then MC drinks it in the immaterial? Obviously its not the same item but if a can is allowed to go between the real and immaterial why not a fancy glowing rune
- Feb 22, 2019
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I don't know man, only thing I can come up is that it's a different item with different properties or more simply in the material world it doesn't have a practical use so he doesn't have it thereIIRC you buy the monster can in the real world but then MC drinks it in the immaterial? Obviously its not the same item but if a can is allowed to go between the real and immaterial why not a fancy glowing rune
- Apr 17, 2024
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You don't drink it in the dream world, Shopkeep teleports it to MC's cell so that he can drink it once he wakes up. On the other hand, Shopkeep can sell you the monster parts regardless of whether you're in the physical world or dream world, so he clearly has some ability to transfer objects between them.IIRC you buy the monster can in the real world but then MC drinks it in the immaterial? Obviously its not the same item but if a can is allowed to go between the real and immaterial why not a fancy glowing rune
My guess is that Shopkeep didn't sell Henri the rune stone just because he wanted the MC to be the one to use it. Shopkeep seems to want the MC to know about the alt-humans, most of the details we have on them came directly or indirectly from something he sold us. He probably knew Henri would climb the Vestige's tower if he had full lucidity and wanted to make sure the MC was along for it.
according to the walkthough you drink it before you say goodbye to mom? even if he is able to teleport it into the sin base that would require him moving it into a different dimension anyway (maybe you could argue he used the cracks from hex to send it).
I agree with you in story (especially about him hinting to dumb boi MC about alt stuff) but when you consider the "overall game?" it kind of makes him seem dumb/poor planning etc.
for us metagaming every choice slyly siding with MC is a great choice..... but what about all the MC who never bought anything from him and ended up in dead end?
shopkeep left with his dick in his hand because he put all his eggs in a basket that regularly admits its stiupid
- Apr 17, 2024
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Nah, you drink it after you wake up, the walkthrough's wrong.according to the walkthough you drink it before you say goodbye to mom? even if he is able to teleport it into the sin base that would require him moving it into a different dimension anyway (maybe you could argue he used the cracks from hex to send it).
I agree with you in story (especially about him hinting to dumb boi MC about alt stuff) but when you consider the "overall game?" it kind of makes him seem dumb/poor planning etc.
for us metagaming every choice slyly siding with MC is a great choice..... but what about all the MC who never bought anything from him and ended up in dead end?
And yeah, the MC could totally ignore the hints that Shopkeep is trying to drop for him, that is entirely possible. But I doubt he's the only person that Shopkeep is working on. We know he's got other deals going on with Charlie, Deus, and Henri, and there are probably plenty more we haven't seen.
We know for a fact that Shopkeep values/thinks/cares about/ is using the MC more than henri....otherwise there would be no need to sell MC the rune instead of Henri. (and leaving up to "chance" if henri gets helped or not and if mc gets more lore) and unless there is some timeline stuff (which starts to really infringe on deus) Shopkeep has been focused on/dealing with/grooming/pushing MC since way before he got his powers imo its likely it goes back just a bit after his mom died (since MC has made 0 mention of forgetting stuff in relation to shopkeep)
- Sep 27, 2017
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We already know some super humans and monsters don't instantly die even when decapitated so that isn't a problem.pretty sure the strength eaters need to be "alive" to eat
Shopkeep is interesting.... but i disagree that he "knows everything" (or is more plot reliant/strapped than deus), even if you ignore "joke stuff" like him calling MC charlie (despite him knowing that he would be selling to charlie and that MC and charlie would know each other), why does he only indirectly interact with "weak" people (aka no level 5s) despite multiple of his items directly involving/impacting them? (Shopkeep helping charlie indirectly pushed charlie towards leaving sin, the whole rune thing for henri) if he knows all, can go between the matieral and immaterial and can get anicent (sky/sea) parts, why arent zak/deus aware? Or does deus allow shopkeep to get away with stuff because deus knows its pushes MC towards what he wants? That doesnt explain why zak (pre injury/now) is allowing a third party to influnece stuff as heavily as he is
IMO shopkeep is something/one that "shouldnt exsist" rather than another very powerful "deus ex machina" it wouldnt really change much about his character the only thing it would really chnage is he doesnt interact with strong people because they are likely to know what/who he is and they might not allow him to keep doing what he is doing.
Whose the strongest person we have seen directly interact with him? Is it MC/Met/Charlie at level 3? Im pretty sure if you help henri MC only make a mention of shopkeep to him and even then henri seems like the most likely "strong person" to not care what shopkeep means/could represent
He does know everything as one of Shopkeeps rewards for the package delivery was the eye of Aglaecwif's son and if you choose it he even mentions knowledge and pleasure which is the two reasons you choose the path that leads to Aglaecwif meaning he knew we would run into her. He also gives you the necklace that is given to the Deryl clone which likely had a effect on his degridation stopping.
Deus might know and just not care as we have already seen Deus' goals don't really align with H.E.R.O. as he often ignores acting in their interests or even acts outright against H.E.R.O. such as when he gave Valravn his heart back. Or Deus might not know at all as he stated he only knows what is going to happen if it directly involves him.
As for Zack he isn't all knowing even about what happens in his time loops a example of this is that you can effect a hidden stat that makes H.E.R.O. stronger or weaker based on if you give Zack the information you learn during the S.I.N. infliltration mission meaning he doesn't know the majority of what happens in the time loop something that is even further reinforced by the fact he needs to ask you for the information in the first place.
Shopkeep does interact with strong people as you can see both Deus and Henri in his store if you go to it multiple times after joining H.E.R.O.
shopkeep didnt know charlie would come back asking "tf i wanted oscar back not whatever this is" yet he didnt tell her originally that "it would point towards who will bring him back".... but let me guess shopkeep knew that charlie would come back asking and also know that MC would come at that exact same time, only for MC to not hear anything about it.....so what was shopkeeps plan then??
i typed out way more but this isnt worth it.
right now shopkeep is a poorly implemented version of dues at best. not because of the writing or ideas behind him, or even because deus is a better deus ex machina but because this a choice based VN.
Go ahead and list every interaction with shopkeep and how he planned for them all to go that way, but it doesn't change the fact that in some "timelines" (whatever you want to call a run in universe) he is ignored to the point that the MC dies. Dues works as a Dues ex machina becuase he isonly relevent to things he is inovlved with and he doesnt give you a choice. Imagine if when deus catches MC him giving the option "turn down dues help" and then he goes and stops del from leaking MC info (much like shopkeep not getting to impart his alt knowlegde and lore if MC doesnt buy shit from him)
Edit: At least shopkeepists are fresher than ellaists i suppose
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- Sep 27, 2017
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The MC heard enough or more specifically we the players heard enough that was the point of the whole thing.
He is implemented just fine as he does what is needed while also selling some useful and amusing items.
He gives you the necklace that you give to Deryl, he gives the twins the ear rings, and he has you deliver a package to Charlie which informs us where she is living then has us encounter Charlie at the store. By the way these are all required things no way to skip or get around them. So even ignoring all the optional stuff he still does quite a bit.
Deus didn't give help when he caught them MC he just talked then left leaving the MC confused about the whole encounter.
I don't even know what would be considered being a shopkeepist or ellaist and I honestly don't think you do ether which is why you used those terms.