VN Ren'Py Superhuman [v0.991] [WeirdWorld]

[Gtdead]

For you to be right we have to forget about that scene existing, for me to be right no such action is needed. What I've said, or rather quoted from the game, doesn't contradict any of the snippets you posted.

Definition of maintenance:
1) The process of preserving a condition or situation or the state of being preserved.
2) The process of keeping something in good condition.

First definition helps your argument, second definition helps mine. I've proved beyond any reasonable doubt that MC thinks he expends power when is either altering his form or when repairing it.

The exact Ella quote you provided works perfectly fine with my interpretation. There is no fallacy, there is no logical leap. The only reason I'm explaining this is because it can be interpreted like you do, but there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

I could be wrong of course, but unless we find a single instance where MC spends energy to sustain an uninjured transformation, there is absolutely no reason why your interpretation is the right one.

 

[bloodaxis]

I could be wrong of course, but unless we find a single instance where MC spends energy to sustain an uninjured transformation, there is absolutely no reason why your interpretation is the right one.

Exactly, if he did have to spend passive energy to maintain his form, what is his true form? A pile of goo? And why wasn't he a pile of goo the first time he woke up instead of his newer improved form? His true self that needs no energy to sustain beyond the normal food a person has to eat, at least until level 4, is very clearly the form he usually takes, only when transforming away from that form has it been implied that he needs a tiny amount of concentration and power/energy.

 

[bloodaxis]

Then this conversation is pointless, we already established that you probably need to be conscious to resist the shapeshifting placed on you.

It's probably how it works yes, unless you have a power that subconsciously works toward a goal in opposition to whatever shit was forced on you in which case you'd likely break it eventually, or gradually return to your form regardless of you being conscious/consciously knowing about it.

 

[vogelbeest]

First, Jake has a different power from a different set of apostles, using him as a reference to explain a different s/h is a bad idea.
Second, could you people stop shitting on tree man? He is not weak by any means of the word. Him losing to Ella is not a matter of her having more power, it's a matter of her unlocking a strong ability through the evolution trance or research.

It doesn't really matter what apostle is you parent if we are talking about how powers work. The Apostles just have different skillsets that a spawn can receive, but even that depends on the physical and mental state of the spawn...

Nobody is shitting on Gillibrand. He's a third evolution superhuman with impressive powerlevels, so much he even has more raw power then some 5th evolution superhumans. He is afraid of monsterfication and justifies not evolving by that fact.
Ella can see his strengths and weaknesses and simply uses logic to beat him. It's not like Nico is doing much better right?
Ella at level 4 still outsmarted 2 (fresh but still) 5th evolution superhumans... And even Malik more or less gets toyed with...
Above all it's a matter of understanding your opponents powers and applying the best possible tactics against them...

 

[vogelbeest]

Then this conversation is pointless, we already established that you probably need to be conscious to resist the shapeshifting placed on you.

There is no shapeshifting placed on others, shapeshifting is done by the shapeshifter.
What Ella and MC do to others is transformation or transmutation... It's different skills....

 

[Fanvor]

Definition of maintenance:
1) The process of preserving a condition or situation or the state of being preserved.
2) The process of keeping something in good condition.

First definition helps your argument, second definition helps mine. I've proved beyond any reasonable doubt that MC thinks he expends power when is either altering his form or when repairing it.

The exact Ella quote you provided works perfectly fine with my interpretation. There is no fallacy, there is no logical leap. The only reason I'm explaining this is because it can be interpreted like you do, but there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

I could be wrong of course, but unless we find a single instance where MC spends energy to sustain an uninjured transformation, there is absolutely no reason why your interpretation is the right one.

Just for you. The aftermath of the first Klaus fight. Alice's mansion when mc grows large.
Choosing size+power against Klaus.
There are others, for sure, these are just a few that I remembered.

 

[Fanvor]

There is no shapeshifting placed on others, shapeshifting is done by the shapeshifter.
What Ella and MC do to others is transformation or transmutation... It's different skills....

Potato potato, it's just different names.

 

[vogelbeest]

Potato potato, it's just different names.

No it's different things...
You're calling a potato banana... lol

In mythology, folklore and speculative fiction, shape-shifting is the ability to physically transform oneself through an inherently superhuman ability, divine intervention, demonic manipulation, sorcery, spells or having inherited the ability.

Shapeshifting is limited to yourself...



What is the power of transmutation?

The power to alter the forms/structure of matter/energy. Sub-power of Form Manipulation, Matter Manipulation, Nuclear Manipulation and Structure Manipulation.


But they're both sub-powers of Form Manipulation...
Same family, but your sister isn't your brother either, right?

 

[Fanvor]

No it's different things...
You're calling a potato banana... lol

In mythology, folklore and speculative fiction, shape-shifting is the ability to physically transform oneself through an inherently superhuman ability, divine intervention, demonic manipulation, sorcery, spells or having inherited the ability.

Shapeshifting is limited to yourself...



What is the power of transmutation?

The power to alter the forms/structure of matter/energy. Sub-power of Form Manipulation, Matter Manipulation, Nuclear Manipulation and Structure Manipulation.


But they're both sub-powers of Form Manipulation...
Same family, but your sister isn't your brother either, right?

Considering that one of the apostles is called body, it really is potato potato, since it's just different ways to exercise the power over "body" yours or others really shouldn't matter.

 

[vogelbeest]

Considering that one of the apostles is called body, it really is potato potato, since it's just different ways to exercise the power over "body" yours or others really shouldn't matter.

LMAO Man, whatever logic you are using with that sentence, i can only say one thing :

 

[bloodaxis]

Just for you. The aftermath of the first Klaus fight. View attachment 2677180 Alice's mansion when mc grows large.
View attachment 2677182 Choosing size+power against Klaus. View attachment 2677183
There are others, for sure, these are just a few that I remembered.

These are all him actively changing/doing something other than just being in his actual form though, those black hands are not his real hands, it's well established they cost power to use, second one he grows larger, which, obviously costs power, same in the third. The first one he also doesn't have enough energy to repair his legs and yet he doesn't turn into goo or whatever because his natural form clearly doesn't need sustained power to not fall apart. Not sure what these are meant to prove exactly.

 

[Fanvor]

LMAO Man, whatever logic you are using with that sentence, i can only say one thing :

View attachment 2677251

Jake's power is not mind control, it's "Authority", based on Ella dialogue Jake might have had control over inanimate objects, but that wouldn't mean that his powers are mind control + telekinesis, it would still mean that his power is "Authority". It is the same with Mc, his power is not shapeshifting or transmutation, his power is the control of the "Body". What body? Who's body? It doesn't matter, neither is the name you give it since the power is, deliberately, very broad in potential and applications. So yeah, potato potato, since both of those powers are just the same thing.

 

[Fanvor]

These are all him actively changing/doing something other than just being in his actual form though, those black hands are not his real hands, it's well established they cost power to use, second one he grows larger, which, obviously costs power, same in the third. The first one he also doesn't have enough energy to repair his legs and yet he doesn't turn into goo or whatever because his natural form clearly doesn't need sustained power to not fall apart. Not sure what these are meant to prove exactly.

Jesus Christ, at this point I'm fucking exhausted. We talked about how he has a maintenance fee for maintaining any change to his body, those black hands are part of his body.
Case 1. When he was critically injured he used up his last drops of power on creating black hands, few seconds later he ran fully dry and he couldn't pay the fee so the power got cancelled.
Case 2. He tried to go large, it was tough, he got exhausted, the transformation ended.
Case 3. He literally says that his large form is hard to maintain, which is the point i was fucking making, he has to exert power to maintain any sort of transformation.
What is it that you don't understand?

 

[bloodaxis]

Jesus Christ, at this point I'm fucking exhausted. We talked about how he has a maintenance fee for maintaining any change to his body, those black hands are part of his body.
Case 1. When he was critically injured he used up his last drops of power on creating black hands, few seconds later he ran fully dry and he couldn't pay the fee so the power got cancelled.
Case 2. He tried to go large, it was tough, he got exhausted, the transformation ended.
Case 3. He literally says that his large form is hard to maintain, which is the point i was fucking making, he has to exert power to maintain any sort of transformation.
What is it that you don't understand?

When was it in dispute that he doesn't have a maintenance fee for changes? I must have missed that, there is obviously a maintenance fee for himself with anything but his "real" form, same with healing/repairing any of his forms. Regardless, wasn't the original argument that the gillibrand transformation needed a constant source of power to stay a tree?

 

[Fanvor]

When was it in dispute that he doesn't have a maintenance fee for changes? I must have missed that, there is obviously a maintenance fee for himself with anything but his "real" form, same with healing/repairing any of his forms.

If you don't know what the conversation is about, then why are you butting in?

Regardless, wasn't the original argument that the gillibrand transformation needed a constant source of power to stay a tree?

This is a conversation i had with completely different people.

 

[Snugglepuff]

If you don't know what the conversation is about, then why are you butting in?

This is a conversation i had with completely different people.

The answer to both, is that you're on public thread on a public forum, not private/direct messages.
Nobody is restricted from saying their piece.

 

[AnonymousMouse]

If you don't know what the conversation is about, then why are you butting in?

It’s an open forum not your personal space lol anyone can butt in with whatever they like

 

[bloodaxis]

If you don't know what the conversation is about, then why are you butting in?

This is a conversation i had with completely different people.

I read an argument about the tree situation and I answered it, I apologise for butting in. If this argument is so important you might as well take it into pms since quibbling about dictionary definitions of words isn't particularly on topic if it doesn't pertain to the larger argument at hand.

 

[necromater]

This forum right now ella went pathfinder with the master shapeshifter feat so me boy gonna be a tree till somebody changes him back XD

 

[Gtdead]

Just for you. The aftermath of the first Klaus fight. View attachment 2677180 Alice's mansion when mc grows large.
View attachment 2677182 Choosing size+power against Klaus. View attachment 2677183
There are others, for sure, these are just a few that I remembered.

The crumbling fists is a very good argument. I will have to research it more. Hopefully there will be some similar situations. If I find a counterargument I will edit this post.

The second and the third can easily be explained with the following snippet.

"I fly high, up into the clouds, beyond even this creature's reach."
scene black with dissolve
"My body floods with power and its size is increased manifold."
"This is the first time I've tried this since my evolution, and the first time doing so with my dark armor."
"It's easier in a sense, my enormous pool of power now allowing me ample energy to maintain this huge size."
"However, doing it while keeping my armor on, covering my identity, is quite the challenge. Ordinarily it'd be difficult to even maintain my regular clothes in this size, let alone my armor."
"It takes quite a bit of control, more than I'm used to. And what's worse-"
play sound "audio/splash.mp3"
scene minyakhunt 49 with hpunch
Minyak "!!!"
"My opponent doesn't just wait for me to complete my transformation. A stream of black tar fires into the sky, nearly hitting my expanding form."
"It takes all I have to evade it, while still maintaining control over my transformation."

MC talks a lot about maintaining control. Not just power. He uses his power to transform and then he has to control it.
This language is similar to when he tries to transmute others. He pours power and then he has to control it otherwise it goes wild and creates eldritch structures, as shown during the prison segment, or just reverting to his natural state as shown when he tried to increase his size in Alice's house.

This theme is also repeated during the Kenny fight. MC says that he can't maintain a transformation and fight at the same time, especially if his body isn't familiar to him. Fighting however doesn't expend power. He is obviously talking about the mental effort of both controlling the form and fighting.