VN Ren'Py Superhuman [v0.996 Public] [WeirdWorld]

[Dysphorika]

I'd say debatable. That character was, on all accounts, trans to begin with, so if we're talking technicality, the change was driven by the desire "she" had to be a woman. So in that sense, is it really a matter of the MC willing the change all of his own accord or more the intent of the person he was using his power on... I'd say more likely the second. After all, is the prisoner had been against it, it's likely the body the MC was trying to change would have resisted.

True enough

 

[Deleted member 5212650]

What do you think the eye will do?

 

[DrakoGhoul]

I'd say debatable. That character was, on all accounts, trans to begin with, so if we're talking technicality, the change was driven by the desire "she" had to be a woman. So in that sense, is it really a matter of the MC willing the change all of his own accord or more the intent of the person he was using his power on... I'd say more likely the second. After all, is the prisoner had been against it, it's likely the body the MC was trying to change would have resisted.



That's all true. But you also know that there is definitely something bigger shaping up, something she knows about. There's been enough hints and we've talked about it. So even if the MC didn't ask for shit, taking into account that point, it's very likely she's doing it with pretty much all her pupils to, one, make sure they get strong enough to not get wiped by the first monster or HERO grunt to come along, two, learn to control themselves instead of letting their inner monster win, and three, possibly become strong enough to resist/help in whatever is coming.
Should she have rather explained and recruited volonteers ? I... don't think so, actually. That wouldn't be a good way to get people with an actual chance and the will to actually push further. Rather, she'd have ended up with people wanting to play superheroes or getting power for selfish reasons becoming nuisance for her plans. Plus she could have been rated out to HERO.

Also I don't think the MC would have progressed that far, or that fast, without Ella putting her fingers in that pie, honestly. She made sure to give him a steady line of hurdles, while he would have just likely enjoyed his student life using his powers for nothing more than be a huge beefcake with a massive dick.

I mean, isn't that what her "students" are doing anyway? Cole definitely fits the description of doing things for selfish reasons. Jake and even Deryl did as well. Also, of course no one would volunteer if she told them the truth but at the same time, her being manipulative and coercing them to possibly die for her cause is still bad. Just because she wants to withhold info doesn't mean we should therefore lose every right to refuse as it's "for our own good" instead.

The only huge hurdles that she caused, that we know of(and that I remember atm) was Kenny, Jake and herself. When you look at all of Klaus encounters, which she claimed she had some involvement in, the MC battled Danica and Klaus with little to no Ella at all. It was mostly Alice's war. He successfully beat both with Alice's help and reached lvl 2 in the end. The Minyak fight was only him as well.

The MC most definitely would've got far without Ella plotting against him, in my opinion. Would it be as fast? Probably not but he would've still progressed. The reason for that is simply that too much stuff is going on in the background that's bigger than Ella. Hero, the Doctor's own plotting and Jared's dad were also stirring up trouble in the background. Then you factor in the Monsters increasing their activity and you have a whole bunch of stuff piling up that would've eventually knocked on the MC's door.

 

[Rutonat]

The MC most definitely would've got far without Ella plotting against him, in my opinion. Would it be as fast? Probably not but he would've still progressed. The reason for that is simply that too much stuff is going on in the background that's bigger than Ella. Hero, the Doctor's own plotting and Jared's dad were also stirring up trouble in the background. Then you factor in the Monsters increasing their activity and you have a whole bunch of stuff piling up that would've eventually knocked on the MC's door.

Yeah... but that's thinking about it in a "storytelling" point of view. Of course the story isn't gonna get to a point where the MC has no hope, since it would mean the end of the story.

Now, if you think about it from a "in universe" point of view... not progressing as fast would have meant that the MC would have likely died very much earlier than Klaus, in my opinion. He went to Ella quite early on to get pointers about how to work his powers, and had she just told him to fuck off and find out on his own, he wouldn't even have made it to that part of the story, in my opinion. Because the events owuldn't have waited for him, he isn't the one creating all of those. The fact that Ella keeps messing with him like that is a dick move, I'm not arguing against that. But you can't deny it's deinitely a catalyst for his growth and it hastens it tremendously.

The MC barely survived the Klaus encouter as it is. If it hadn't been for his inner monster (or whatever it is) awakening to talk to him, and the whole evolution triggering, I'm pretty sure the MC would have died then and there. He was barely a match to Klaus before that, and he was on that level in part thanks to Ella's meddling.

So I don't think Ella is that much of an asshole. If that was just a culling, she would just be way more brutal about it, or straight up do it herself. Her methods are assholish, no arguments about that. And I'm not saying the MC could just tell her off (though she might get mad and kill him for it). But saying that things wouldn't be different if she wasn't always fucking around with her students... I think it's delusional, honestly.

 

[mrttao]

> Gives you super-powers
She does not give you superpowers, you are just lucky that you survived the attack.

Giving you powers is literally the explicit reason she gave you the pill. And surprising how many folk get "lucky" to survive taking her pills.
Jake, Darren, that jock guy who mosterified, that friend who introduced you.
so out of 5 people who we know took her pills. 5 survived the attack. 1 monsterified near immediately and got put down (by the MC). Darren failed his level up and monsterified then.

And once she gets hat she wants she kills you anyway.

No? if you tell her you are what she was looking for, she takes you somewhere she underestimated and BOTH of you die together to an OP monster she couldn't handle.

> Even supervised to make sure you don't die.
Yeah, no. Her strategy is "If he dies, he dies, I'll just get another chump". She saved the friend because she was running out of test subjects

You are literally contradicting yourself. First saying she doesn't do it... then admitting she does.
You admit that she has done it on 100% of the examples given in the game. You just insist she did it because of "running out of test subjects" (which is ridiculous considering there are billions of human test subjects out there) or a sudden bout of pity.

 

[mrttao]

The point is that Ella isn't all that benevolent.

Ok, stop right there.
"Gave me super powers" does not mean benevolent. It never meant benevolent.
It means I personally owe her a debt that I cannot even begin to repay. because I am not an ungrateful bastard.

I am not a paragon of virtue, I am going to use super powers given to me for selfish self gain. Giving them to me was not an act of benevolence.
But I do understand the concept of reciprocity and of being grateful to those who help you. And at the end of the day it was I who was given a gift that is beyond precious.

So many people will sacrifice their life at a chance for something that was just handed to me for free. How can you not be grateful to that?

 

[DrakoGhoul]

Yeah... but that's thinking about it in a "storytelling" point of view. Of course the story isn't gonna get to a point where the MC has no hope, since it would mean the end of the story.

Now, if you think about it from a "in universe" point of view... not progressing as fast would have meant that the MC would have likely died very much earlier than Klaus, in my opinion. He went to Ella quite early on to get pointers about how to work his powers, and had she just told him to fuck off and find out on his own, he wouldn't even have made it to that part of the story, in my opinion. Because the events owuldn't have waited for him, he isn't the one creating all of those. The fact that Ella keeps messing with him like that is a dick move, I'm not arguing against that. But you can't deny it's deinitely a catalyst for his growth and it hastens it tremendously.

The MC barely survived the Klaus encouter as it is. If it hadn't been for his inner monster (or whatever it is) awakening to talk to him, and the whole evolution triggering, I'm pretty sure the MC would have died then and there. He was barely a match to Klaus before that, and he was on that level in part thanks to Ella's meddling.

So I don't think Ella is that much of an asshole. If that was just a culling, she would just be way more brutal about it, or straight up do it herself. Her methods are assholish, no arguments about that. And I'm not saying the MC could just tell her off (though she might get mad and kill him for it). But saying that things wouldn't be different if she wasn't always fucking around with her students... I think it's delusional, honestly.

That ignores a lot of context for a lot of stuff but you're entitled to think what you want in that regard. Ella isn't the only huge catalyst. She's one of many factors and I think it's more delusional to think that all of his training is attributed to Ella and not his own hardwork.

 

[DrakoGhoul]

Ok, stop right there.
"Gave me super powers" does not mean benevolent. It never meant benevolent.
It means I personally owe her a debt that I cannot even begin to repay. because I am not an ungrateful bastard.

No because she didn't do it out of the kindness of her heart. She did it for her own mysterious plans... I don't owe her anything. That's not being ungrateful. She lost all that when she tried to kill us multiple times. You can be her little pawn but I won't.

 

[Rutonat]

That ignores a lot of context for a lot of stuff but you're entitled to think what you want in that regard. Ella isn't the only huge catalyst. She's one of many factors and I think it's more delusional to think that all of his training is attributed to Ella and not his own hardwork.

I didn't say she was the reason for all his training, did I ?
Also you are yourself ignoring some of the latest moments in the game currently in which she admits to have a particular fondness for the MC over other of her pupils. You imply she has no kindness in her acitons but there good hints now that she's more carefull with him than she could be, likely because she likes him specifically.

 

[mrttao]

No because she didn't do it out of the kindness of her heart. She did it for her own mysterious plans... I don't owe her anything. That's not being ungrateful. She lost all that when she tried to kill us multiple times. You can be her little pawn but I won't.

It is in fact being ungrateful. supremely ungrateful at that. it is literally the logic of
> "I don't owe anyone anything no matter how much they help me unless they are a literal saint who does everything out of pure charitable benevolence, expecting nothing back"

This is a very very ungrateful mindset to have.
Also, there is a difference between being grateful and being a pawn.

You are also assuming that whatever her plans are, they are harmful to the MC... but we don't actually know that.
Maybe she literally plans on eating you
Maybe she plans to usurp the monster gods and needs peer allies to do the deed, and all members of the team would benefit. Whatever it is we won't know until much later in the game.

Until I find out she has actual harmful plans for me though, I intend to show some common fucking decency by being grateful for the gift she has given me.

Also. I would like to point out that even if she had actual ill intent, you still owe her... and can even still be grateful.
Grateful does not mean "let her eat me". I can be mentally aware that I owe her a lot, yet still fight her to the death because she is trying to eat me and I don't want to die. Basically:
> I am grateful for the gift you gave me
> Then let me eat you
> That exceeds the bounds of my gratitude.

 

[DrakoGhoul]

I didn't say she was the reason for all his training, did I ?
Also you are yourself ignoring some of the latest moments in the game currently in which she admits to have a particular fondness for the MC over other of her pupils. You imply she has no kindness in her acitons but there good hints now that she's more carefull with him than she could be, likely because she likes him specifically.

You also do realize she said she was fond of the MC moments before she told Jake to kill him right? And even with that fondness stuff, it can easily be a facade from her side of things and she has no one else to blame but herself for that doubt. Also, Emily and Christie would instantly disprove me if I said Ella isn't kind at all towards anyone.

Look, I'll level with you. If her "fondness" turns out to be genuine with no trickery and she truly had the MC's best intentions in mind, I'll take back what I said about her having no regard for the MC's wellbeing with all this manipulation she's doing. That's fair?

 

[Rutonat]

You also do realize she said she was fond of the MC moments before she told Jake to kill him right? And even with that fondness stuff, it can easily be a facade from her side of things and she has no one else to blame but herself for that doubt. Also, Emily and Christie would instantly disprove me if I said Ella isn't kind at all towards anyone.

Look, I'll level with you. If her "fondness" turns out to be genuine with no trickery and she truly had the MC's best intentions in mind, I'll take back what I said about her having no regard for the MC's wellbeing with all this manipulation she's doing. That's fair?

Well I was just debating with you, like we've done multiple times before.
Truth is, yeah, Ella could very well end up being revealed as the evil mastermind behind everything. But on a writing standpoint it doesn't seem likely, especially with what seems like more and more cracks forming in her "crazy superhuman goth chick" mask.
But I could just as well be the one being wrong on everything.

It's just that... I don't know, I see people labeling her as all ranges of evil, but I really get the feeling she's hiding her true self behind that attitude, potentially so she can seem stronger. Like... Like her being "physically" (i.e. powers) strong doesn't relate to her being as psychologicaly strong, therefore using that mask.
But again, that's just a feeling I get from her. Which has only grown stronger with the last scene with her, the little date in the park, where she seemed to show more of the real her than ever before, almost like it sliped out from her mask, you know ?

 

[DrakoGhoul]

It is in fact being ungrateful. supremely ungrateful at that. it is literally the logic of
> "I don't owe anyone anything no matter how much they help me unless they are a literal saint who does everything out of pure charitable benevolence, expecting nothing back"

This is a very very ungrateful mindset to have.
Also, there is a difference between being grateful and being a pawn.

You are also assuming that whatever her plans are, they are harmful to the MC... but we don't actually know that.
Maybe she literally plans on eating you
Maybe she plans to usurp the monster gods and needs peer allies to do the deed, and all members of the team would benefit. Whatever it is we won't know until much later in the game.

Until I find out she has actual harmful plans for me though, I intend to show some common fucking decency by being grateful for the gift she has given me.

Also. I would like to point out that even if she had actual ill intent, you still owe her... and can even still be grateful.
Grateful does not mean "let her eat me". I can be mentally aware that I owe her a lot, yet still fight her to the death because she is trying to eat me and I don't want to die. Basically:
> I am grateful for the gift you gave me
> Then let me eat you
> That exceeds the bounds of my gratitude.

Anything involving Monsters is harmful. Ella's plan involves Monsters and Deryl himself tells you what she's planning isn't good before he monsterfied. If even our Monster Parent is telling us to devour and get stronger quickly then you know what's about to happen is bad.

Once again, I don't feel like I owe her anything and no I'm not grateful towards her. How you plan on going about it is a whole other story.

 

[mrttao]

Anything involving Monsters is harmful. Ella's plan involves Monsters and Deryl himself tells you what she's planning isn't good before he monsterfied. If even our Monster Parent is telling us to devour and get stronger quickly then you know what's about to happen is bad.

Once again, I don't feel like I owe her anything and no I'm not grateful towards her. How you plan on going about it is a whole other story.

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"Oh woe is me! She is harming me so much with all those super powers and sex she is throwing my way."

I can only dream that one day I would be as "cursed" as the MC in this game.
Sigh, if only I had an Ella to "harm" me in that way.

 

[DrakoGhoul]

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"Oh woe is me! She is harming me so much with all those super powers and sex she is throwing my way."

I can only dream that one day I would be as "cursed" as the MC in this game.
Sigh, if only I had an Ella to "harm" me in that way.

Cool story, but I didn't ask . No offense but I seriously don't care how you feel about Ella right about now and how you feel you owe her. You do you.

 

[New Kid]

Just to pitch in my two cents in the Ella discussion, I think that while she does indeed help the MC develop his power by creating situations that push him into action and growth, ultimately it's all for her own benefit and probably just to use him as a sacrifice, she doesn't antogonize him TOO much because if he goes rogue on her she will lose her creation either by having to kill the MC herself or if he joins up with HERO or someone else that is hostile to her. In that bad end in the beginning of the game where you fight her and actually put up a decent challenge she immediatly takes you prisoner and tries to sacrifice you to a monster... not to mention she doesn't give a shit about how many people will die/get messed up as collateral damage as long as she achieves whatever she wants to. I don't really trust her and probably will end up fighting her in the end if the option presents itself.

 

[plong]

If her "fondness" turns out to be genuine with no trickery and she truly had the MC's best intentions in mind, I'll take back what I said about her having no regard for the MC's wellbeing with all this manipulation she's doing. That's fair?

I should point out that just because someone exhibit fondness it doesn't mean they aren't pragmatic about it. In Ella's case, she has a set goal and she will not stop at anything to reach it but that does in no way stop her from genuinely liking the MC or hang out with friends etc if it it doesn't negatively impact the goal.

To make an analogy: A researcher may be fond of the animals used in animal trials and pet them on occasion or give them treats but in the end they will still be used in experiments.

 

[Edvin]

I see you're having quite an interesting debate here, so I'll probably join.

Is Ella good? - Not particularly.
Is Ella evil? - Not particularly.
Can we trust her? - Definitely not!

I agree with plong that Ella is above all pragmatic. So far, I haven't seen her inflict more suffering than necessary, or kill for pleasure. If nothing else, we can only trust that she will stand by our side until she finds someone better, or we don't start messing up her plans in any significant way. But if that happens, we will be just another pawn for her that she will be willing to sacrifice.

But there are a few things to keep in mind.

All hybrids are predators, it's deep in their genes, MC is no exception. The change that hybrids go through is not only physical but also psychological. I am not talking only about the possible influence of corruption, but about the overall change. It is not possible to apply human morality to hybrids, just as it is not possible to apply it to animals. It is impossible to explain to a wolf that killing hares and eating them is wrong, he should feel remorse for it and above all he should not do it at all. It is inevitable that all hybrids will sooner or later begin to think of humans as an inferior species. If it wasn't true, the psyche of the vast majority of people wouldn't be able to handle it. Think about how many people MC has already killed. And it wasn't something impersonal like pulling the trigger. He literally tore apart hundreds of people with his own hands. Still, he doesn't seem particularly bothered by it. And Ella has been a hybrid for much longer than we have been…

 

[Raizeki]

Like I said, the pill is a lure for the Monster themselves. Ella didn't give him any powers "herself". It's the result of the Monster directly infecting you. All Ella did was risk the MC dying from it since he could've monsterfied or been killed as a result of the Monsters she lured coming. That is potentially Ella's fault.

She only "saved" his friend because he had a bad reaction to the pill itself and the monster that came was most likely weaker than her. The MC on the other hand was up against the 3rd and 4th, who are vastly superior to her. If he monsterfied at the end, she would've killed him. If they decided to just eat the MC, Ella would've just stood there "supervising" and you would be shit out of luck. That's the one big detail you were missing while pointing out "she's supervising the MC there". He managed to survive the encounter on his own.

The point is that Ella isn't all that benevolent. She will throw you to the wolves completely and using only early scenes in the game doesn't disprove that. Especially with the 3rd and 4th in the beginning. She sets you up to get killed multiple times since you've became a superhuman. She almost killed you herself. The MC being strong enough to overcome it all doesn't make what she did not wrong.

Did her actions lead to the MC getting superpowers from Monsters, themselves? Yes. Were the superpowers worth the risk? Absolutely, like I said to her in-game. That still doesn't mean she had only good intentions in mind for the MC though.

I Think i missed some lore, when and what is that ''3rd and 4th'' monsters you are talking about ? i know that are the two monsters that gives MC powers, but when they talk about their ranking/power in the history ? i don't remember ever getting new info about them

 

[plong]

I Think i missed some lore, when and what is that ''3rd and 4th'' monsters you are talking about ? i know that are the two monsters that gives MC powers, but when they talk about their ranking/power in the history ? i don't remember ever getting new info about them

Every monster has a "rank", the first two monsters you meet in the park in the beginning are ranked 3rd and 4th respectively - this is mentioned later in the story.