VN Ren'Py Superhuman [v0.996 Public] [WeirdWorld]

[DrakoGhoul]

I think you are really misunderstanding the argument. It's not about if Laurie can return to active duty, evolve, or even manage to reach level 5.

The game deals with literal gods, way beyond what superhumans can deal with, and the main cast are all spawns of some of the strongest beings in existence, that will certainly play a role at that level.

Jake for example is an important character because he is an apostlespawn and was destined to inherit a power that literally shapes the universe. Characters like Laurie, Danica, even the HERO captains, will probably be small fish by the time the endgame kicks in, so their development while having the capacity to create good content for the viewers, in the grand scheme of things is irrelevant. At least some of them are powerful enough to drive the plot and possibly become important allies or important roadblocks.

Laurie is just a level 2 and certainly not on the level of the more powerful characters, mentally or ability-wise. She could play a support role that allows MC to develop a bit faster, but there are so many characters who can do the same and are part of the main cast, that she really doesn't even worth mentioning in comparison.

She performed fine as a vehicle for Deryl's and Alice's presentation and development. Liking Laurie and caring about future scenes is fine, and we can have a good discussion on how we would like her to develop, but the chances of her getting a important/leading role, even without her possible death, weren't that great to begin with.

Exactly. Deryl, Michael, Tiffany and Alice are all connected to an apostle. They're going to play major roles. Jake is the exception because he can die but he's 1st Spawn. Laurie has no connection at all. She's not link to any of the major plot points that'll develop from here on out and she's not strong enough for the stuff we'll be facing.

As happy as I am that Danica is alive, I'm not delusional enough to think she's going to be apart of the main cast. I'm thankful that WW gave me my waifu, but I'm under no illusion that she'll be that important to the story going forward beyond her being alive still. At most, she'll be working as Xanthe's assassin in the background and MC's lover.

 

[DrakoGhoul]

How much do we know about the Apostles? From what I remember from my playthrough, the First is Authority, the Second is Power, the Third is Memory, and Fourth is Body (might've mixed up 3 and 4). I assume that "Grandfather" character that Alice saw after her evolution is one of them, but not sure which. The Eleventh and Twelfth are twins (though there is a trend of pairing sequential apostles together like how Authority and Power pair to make Order, and how the MC refers to 3rd and 4th as Mother and Father) but I don't know what they represent. I haven't gone into much of the deadends. Also do we still not really know what the thing that killed Mother was in the dead end where we fight Ella? If I recall correctly, it will appear in one of the MC's dreams, I assume if corruption is high enough but I'm not certain about that.

The Dead End monster that kills the 4th's avatar with Ella is the 7th. That's Valravn's Lord.

As for the Apostles, we don't know a lot still but we know there's 12 of them, each with a twin born alongside them. Each twin is closely linked together and they share their powers. The twins are:

1st and 2nd is Authority and Power
3rd and 4th is Body and Memory
5th and 6th is Time and Ether(Space)
7th and 8th is Dark and Light
9th and 10th is unknown currently
11th and 12th is Destruction and Creation

These are the characters directly connected to an Apostle.

The 1st - Jake

The 2nd - Michael

The 3rd - Ella and MC (possibly)

The 4th - Aglaecwif and MC

The 5th - Possibly Deus

The 6th - Fairy Thing and Alice

The 7th - Valravn

The 8th - Tiffany

The 9th - Eisheth

The 10th - Mystery Chosen(?)

The 11th - Evander

The 12th - Rebis, Tanos, Devana and Deryl

 

[KingAgamemnon]

The Dead End monster that kills the 4th's avatar with Ella is the 7th. That's Valravn's Lord.

As for the Apostles, we don't know a lot still but we know there's 12 of them, each with a twin born alongside them. Each twin is closely linked together and they share their powers. The twins are:

1st and 2nd is Authority and Power
3rd and 4th is Body and Memory
5th and 6th is Time and Ether(Space)
7th and 8th is Dark and Light
9th and 10th is unknown currently
11th and 12th is Destruction and Creation

These are the characters directly connected to an Apostle.

The 1st - Jake

The 2nd - Michael

The 3rd - Ella and MC (possibly)

The 4th - Aglaecwif and MC

The 5th - Possibly Deus

The 6th - Fairy Thing and Alice

The 7th - Valravn

The 8th - Tiffany

The 9th - Eisheth

The 10th - Mystery Chosen(?)

The 11th - Evander

The 12th - Rebis, Tanos, Devana and Deryl

I get Love and Hate vibes from 9 and 10. Mostly from Eisheth and also kinda from Demi.

 

[DrakoGhoul]

I get Love and Hate vibes from 9 and 10. Mostly from Eisheth and also kinda from Demi.

While anything's possible, the twins seem to make up the universe in a dualistic manner. In the sense that they have cosmic properties that govern everything.

Demi's power alters perception and emotions which could be a memory and authority trait. Monsters breeding a lot created many traits so it's not exactly guaranteed that it hints at an Apostle Trait. 9th and 10th was originally thought to be Death and Destruction by me before the reveal this update but it seems that Life falls under Creation which eliminated the need for the Life and Death duality. Especially since Destruction is now the 11th.

The only thing I can think of at the moment is Cause (9th) and Effect (10th) with the combined power being Causality. I'll have work out some ideas after rereading Eisheth memory scene again. It does hint at what her trait could be but we'll likely have to wait and see.

 

[lorkdubo]

I get Love and Hate vibes from 9 and 10. Mostly from Eisheth and also kinda from Demi.

Demi's monster does kinda look like higher up the scale. Something with emotions and could be a good fit for Liz.

 

[KingAgamemnon]

While anything's possible, the twins seem to make up the universe in a dualistic manner. In the sense that they have cosmic properties that govern everything.

Demi's power alters perception and emotions which could be a memory and authority trait. Monsters breeding a lot created many traits so it's not exactly guaranteed that it hints at an Apostle Trait. 9th and 10th was originally thought to be Death and Destruction by me before the reveal this update but it seems that Life falls under Creation which eliminated the need for the Life and Death duality. Especially since Destruction is now the 11th.

The only thing I can think of at the moment is Cause (9th) and Effect (10th) with the combined power being Causality. I'll have work out some ideas after rereading Eisheth memory scene again. It does hint at what her trait could be but we'll likely have to wait and see.

When was that again? I'll reread the script file.

EDIT: Nvm, found it.

 

[DrakoGhoul]

When was that again? I'll reread the script file.

Should be at the Xanthe scene after we escape with Nico.

 

[KingAgamemnon]

Here's her memory:

"Memories of her companion are fragmented and unclear."
"I see him teaching her the modern tongue. She has known variations of it over the millennia, but he taught her to speak in the way she currently does now."
"More than that... I can't really see, not clearly."
"But there's an intense love for him, a devotion, maybe even... An obsession. She cares deeply for her companion, at least in her own way."
"But there's something else... Something I can't quite put my finger on.... That almost makes me want to doubt everything I just read."
"Is it suspicion? Wariness? Frustration? I can't tell, but...."
You "....."

Here's her powers:

"Her powers, her origin.... The Ninth...."
"Objects, lifeforms, moving at her whim. Her powerful mind directing stable reality, guiding it through the world... And crushing it."
"More than that I can't see, the memories are too fragmented."

Here's her motives:

"A swirling maelstrom of past thoughts, ideas, pursuits, flow over me, too much for me to see and comprehend in a human lifetime."
"The memories are breaking down though, creating huge missing chunks in the whirlpool I draw from..."
"Several memories burst out. Of the kingdom she's ruled, the children she's born, the mates she's taken. Only passing glimpses that I can only just barely grasp."
"I see hordes of humans gathered around her, worshiping her as a god. I feel an intense desire to spread her influence, to be worshiped across the land."
"Then the memory shifts, to the child she raised, the rabid monster that turned on its mother and nearly consumed her. I feel the sorrow and the deep wish for a second child."
"Desires from her long forgotten past, interesting, but it tells me nothing about what it is she desires currently."

 

[KingAgamemnon]

Mmm, I think cause and effect are a bit too esoteric. Sure, they're a duology, but not really in the same way as the other ones. It's kinda funky to talk about one without the other.

 

[KingAgamemnon]

If not for the Algae talk, I would've said the best fit for this is Order vs Chaos.

 

[DrakoGhoul]

If not for the Algae talk, I would've said the best fit for this is Order vs Chaos.

Order is the original trait of Authority and Power. Chaos or Change could be the original trait of the 3rd and 4th.

Unless you can think of another set of powers that could govern reality and complete each other. Cause and Effect are one of the last few left.

 

[KingAgamemnon]

Order is the original trait of Authority and Power. Chaos or Change could be the original trait of the 3rd and 4th.

Unless you can think of another set of powers that could govern reality and complete each other. Cause and Effect are one of the last few left.

Is vs Is Not is one of the few ideas I have left.

 

[DrakoGhoul]

Is vs Is Not is one of the few ideas I have left.

How would that work though? With what Eisheth showed.

Is and Is Not is Reality and Fiction, Real and Unreal or True and False. That's more into the God territory, if it was a thing. Not so much the 6 Arbiters and 12 Apostles.

 

[Gtdead]

It's more likely for Eisheth's Apostle to be relevant to her powers than her state of mind, and the main ability we can observe is telekinesis. Telekinesis is about motion, so a possible apostolic pair could be Motion and Inertia. Very Newtonian!

This is how I perceive the apostolic concepts. Those who were born first were the building blocks for those who came after. It works a bit like a chain, although it's not exact:

1) Authority / Behavior -> Determines the behaviors of everything. The laws of the universe
2) Power / Energy -> The universe started as various energies that interacted and created the rest, according to the laws of authority.
3) Body / Matter -> Energy can create matter.
4) Memory / Structure -> The structure of matter determines it's properties
5) Time / Causality -> Time as a concept exists because we can observe matter. It's powers seem to manipulate cause and effect.
6) Space / Dimensions -> Matter has dimensions and mass creates gravity
7) Dark -> This one is a bit odd conceptually. It could refer to the absense of matter, or something related to the default state of the universe.
8) Light -> Light symbolizes many things, so again I'm not sure how it works conceptually, but it requires matter and structure in order to exist.
9) (Speculation) Motion -> Through the interaction of energy, matter and space, objects can move relative to one another.
10) (Speculation) Inertia -> Objects want to retain their state of movement.
11) Destruction / Annihilation -> The combination of the previous concepts that facilitates the transformation of matter to energy.
12) Creation / Purpose -> The combination of all the previous concepts to create objects with purpose.

Of course some of my descriptions are a bit iffy but I don't have a better way to present them.

 

[KingAgamemnon]

How would that work though? With what Eisheth showed.

Is and Is Not is Reality and Fiction, Real and Unreal or True and False. That's more into the God territory, if it was a thing. Not so much the 6 Arbiters and 12 Apostles.

That's true...
Able to move objects and lifeforms, so it's probably not another mentality based power like authority or memory, it would be weird to triple up on that.

Maybe Fate/Destiny vs Freedom?

 

[KingAgamemnon]

It's more likely for Eisheth's Apostle to be relevant to her powers than her state of mind, and the main ability we can observe is telekinesis. Telekinesis is about motion, so a possible apostolic pair could be Motion and Inertia. Very Newtonian!

This is how I perceive the apostolic concepts. Those who were born first were the building blocks for those who came after. It works a bit like a chain, although it's not exact:

1) Authority / Behavior -> Determines the behaviors of everything. The laws of the universe
2) Power / Energy -> The universe started as various energies that interacted and created the rest, according to the laws of authority.
3) Body / Matter -> Energy can create matter.
4) Memory / Structure -> The structure of matter determines it's properties
5) Time / Causality -> Time as a concept exists because we can observe matter. It's powers seem to manipulate cause and effect.
6) Space / Dimensions -> Matter has dimensions and mass creates gravity
7) Dark -> This one is a bit odd conceptually. It could refer to the absense of matter, or something related to the default state of the universe.
8) Light -> Light symbolizes many things, so again I'm not sure how it works conceptually, but it requires matter and structure in order to exist.
9) (Speculation) Motion -> Through the interaction of energy, matter and space, objects can move relative to one another.
10) (Speculation) Inertia -> Objects want to retain their state of movement.
11) Destruction / Annihilation -> The combination of the previous concepts that facilitates the transformation of matter to energy.
12) Creation / Purpose -> The combination of all the previous concepts to create objects with purpose.

Of course some of my descriptions are a bit iffy but I don't have a better way to present them.

I like the idea behind this, but I feel motion/inertia is pretty much subsumed conceptually by authority

EDIT: Maybe Change vs Stasis is a better way of putting it?

 

[DrakoGhoul]

I honestly don't have a good replacement for 9th and 10th. While Cause and Effect makes a lot of sense for me, even I'm not confident in that. I think I went too hard on Life, Death, Creation and Destruction speculation that I didn't expect WW to say fuck that, I'm combining them together instead. Pretty much removing Life and Death from the speculation altogether.

I will say it's more exciting this way though. Like, I guessed the 12th accurately and pretty much the 11th as well. I just didn't put the 11th in the correct order. Now, it's a complete mystery and has me even more interested to find out what it could be from the clues in the future.

 

[KingAgamemnon]

I honestly don't have a good replacement for 9th and 10th. While Cause and Effect makes a lot of sense for me, even I'm not confident in that. I think I went too hard on Life, Death, Creation and Destruction speculation that I didn't expect WW to say fuck that, I'm combining them together instead. Pretty much removing Life and Death from the speculation altogether.

I will say it's more exciting this way though. Like, I guessed the 12th accurately and pretty much the 11th as well. I just didn't put the 11th in the correct order. Now, it's a complete mystery and has me even more interested to find out what it could be from the clues in the future.

At this point, I'm just looking up common dualities. I figure whatever the real answer is, it's not gonna be something super radical. Like we've got pretty standard dualities here with light and dark, creation and destruction, etc. So I'm not expecting something totally out there like Concepts vs Actualization or something. Cause and Effect makes the most sense not because I think it's a good fit, but because it's a very popular duality that wouldn't seem out of place on the list.

 

[Deleted member 6673683]

Chaos or Change could be the original trait of the 3rd and 4th.

Even though it might sound a little implausible, I was thinking about the possibility that "Integrity" was the origin shared by the Third and Fourth. Integrity as in being "whole," "undivided," and "complete.". "What You Think" and "What You Do" are integrated. "Integrity" and "Chaos" would be diametrically opposed.

In that one Dead End, isn't "completion" what the Arbiter is searching for?

 

[DrakoGhoul]

Though it may sound a bit unrealistic, I was considering the possibility that "Integrity" was the initial characteristic of the Third and Fourth. Integrity in the sense of being "undivided," "whole," and "complete." - An integration of "What You Think" and "What You Do". "Chaos" would be completely opposed to "Integrity".

In that one Dead End, isn't "completion" what the Arbiter is searching for?

That was mostly because he was incomplete overall. In other words, he wasn't reborn as a full Arbiter/Origin. It's speculation currently but we think he was looking for Ella for the other part to complete his ascension. However, he was killed by Deus before he could accomplish it.