VN Ren'Py Superhuman [v0.996 Public] [WeirdWorld]

[Gtdead]

Furthermore, you are trying to correct me on things I never said.
I explicitly hypothesized early on that it might be possible to create purely mundane creations.
But there is rarely a reason to do so.
And by default they make "magic X". therefore the assertion that "X must conform to known physics" is wrong as it ignores the magic part.

Yet you have been trying to twist the above into me saying "it is impossible for them to create mundane stuff".

Well, your posts are getting predictable at this point.
1) You completely ignore the pieces that you can't contest, like I never mentioned them.
2) You hang on some word that you take out of context or failing to understand it's context in the first place as an "aha" moment.
3) You whine that I twist your arguments while you casually strawman me.
4) You continue using your ideas as proof despite, even when shown proof that the game's text contradicts you, without even making an attempt to explain yourself.

Fire that burns without a source is NOT mundane fire. That is magic, it literally breaks physics.
Fire that burns with intensity greater than it should based on physics is NOT mundane fire.
Your argument is literally self contradicting.

Look, if you are going to make a discussion based on physics, do your homework. Different fuels create flame with different temperatures and Malik provides the fuel which I already said it's magical, There is not a speck of inconsistency in my post, but you do you.

You are accusing me of what you are doing.
I clearly read far more than you did consider how you are ignoring every fact in the game that is inconvenient to your imagination.

Certainly, like you read the bit about "evaporation", like you read the bit about your "aura/soul/magic pressure" ideas. And the funniest part is that you accuse me of ignoring the facts when I literally use the script to counter your arguments, and instead of attempting to prove me wrong, you claim that you "read far more".

Sure, you do you.

You quoted it (alongside with another argument) when you first told me I am wrong.
Later, you misinterpreted it as being a response to the magic argument

Are you talking about the "kamehame" post that I quoted? Where in that post does it mention planet busters?

because nowhere in the story does it say that they are tossing kamehamehas with more than 100 nukes worth of explosion

"Even to an ordinary mountain, a nuclear bomb would do precious little, you'd have to launch hundreds."
Bernhard "Very well. A little pressure should do it." | Bernhardt "Just applied a little pressure, that is all."

You have failed to produce a single example of someone converting their magic into purely non magical energy.
C. You are ignoring the part where I explicitly stated that Berhard, Nico, and Malik are explicitly potential planet busters. Nico literally destroyed a demiplane.

I was the first who tried to explain that planet busting is normal for level 5 Superhumans in this discussion, and there is no need for "magic" to destroy a planet, so that's not an argument which helps your case.

I don't see how I misrepresented it (basically I don't even see how I quoted it in the first place, but whatever). In fact not only that didn't happen, but I stayed polite despite your tone.
But it seems like your only line of defense is claiming that I twist your arguments.

Well, polite time is over. If you want to continue this discussion

1) Learn to read. Some better comprehension will go along way to stop you from accusing me of twisting your words all the time.
2) Learn that insinsting on your ideas without any attempt of proof, when someone challenges it with a direct quote from the only authority in this discussion (the game), is childish.
3) Learn enough physics to avoid having to discuss about stuff like the flame.
4) Pull that stick out of your ass and stop strawmaning me while claiming that I somehow twist your arguments. My arguments are not even relevant to what you are insinuating. I don't care if you think Superhumans are capable of creating mundane effects as it's not part of the discussion. I only care that you are trying to prove that the effects are inherently magical.

The premises are
Mine: The effects are inherently mundane and can be augmented with magic.
Yours: The effects are inherently magical and have the potential to be mundane.

That's the only thing that drives my responses. I don't misrepresent, and I don't care for satellite arguments unless I believe that they directly contradict the written script.

Edit: Just to make it clear to people who read my posts. As it stands, I currently believe that every effect we see in the game, which looks familiar to a real life concept, like fire, mass, teleportation etc, can be measured exactly how a scientist would measure it in a lab. The medium that makes these effects happen is monster energy, which is anyone's perogative if he believes it's more of a fantasy concept or a sci-fi / exotic material one. I think it's a mix based on the concepts of annihilation and exotic matter, but it expresses itself in ways that are mostly fantastical.

This opinion may change in the future if we get information on the particulars. As it stands, I believe that the only hint that supports the "magic" idea is Xanthe's assertion that in order to turn monster biology into functional technology, it requires a "magical" element, along with his opinion on why MC can't mimic other powers despite shapeshifting into them (the bit about lifeforce). This says something about the medium, not necessarily the effect.

 

[ConsciouslyCrazy]

Watch closely kids. On the posts before mine, you can see the effects of a near update on the members of the thread. On one side you have GT, who is already used to the anticipation; that's why his mind can't be affected and he is fully lucid on the other side... I will refrain from commenting since I don't want to repeat the accident from two days ago. Now what does all of this mean? You may be asking well, the truth is, I don't know. The only thing I know is...

WE NEED THIS UPDATE RIGHT FUCKING NOW! WW LOOK WHAT YOU'RE DOING TO US

 

[Dipasimaan]

Watch closely kids. On the posts before mine, you can see the effects of a near update on the members of the thread. On one side you have GT, who is already used to the anticipation; that's why his mind can't be affected and he is fully lucid on the other side... I will refrain from commenting since I don't want to repeat the accident from two days ago. Now what does all of this mean? You may be asking well, the truth is, I don't know. The only thing I know is...

WE NEED THIS UPDATE RIGHT FUCKING NOW! WW LOOK WHAT YOU'RE DOING TO US
View attachment 3275382

 

[ConsciouslyCrazy]

View attachment 3275384

 

[Gtdead]

Watch closely kids. On the posts before mine, you can see the effects of a near update on the members of the thread. On one side you have GT, who is already used to the anticipation; that's why his mind can't be affected and he is fully lucid on the other side... I will refrain from commenting since I don't want to repeat the accident from two days ago. Now what does all of this mean? You may be asking well, the truth is, I don't know. The only thing I know is...

WE NEED THIS UPDATE RIGHT FUCKING NOW! WW LOOK WHAT YOU'RE DOING TO US
View attachment 3275382

New Claudia really helped. I'll concede all of my points in an instant if it somehow increases her scenes!

 

[ConsciouslyCrazy]

New Claudia really helped. I'll concede all of my points in an instant if it somehow increases her scenes!

We are almost there brother, and i'm sure she will be getting much more scenes now that she is a supes too

 

[twink fucker]

amazing game with a shit ton of content and great story, i have two questions though

1. will some of the older sprites get updated to newer ones in future updates, the age really shows on sprites like Christies, Liz and Ellas compared to newer ones


2.

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[EienYagami]

The premises are
Mine: The effects are inherently mundane and can be augmented with magic.
Yours: The effects are inherently magical and have the potential to be mundane.

I think both of these arguments(?) are correct depending on the situation/SuperHuman or there is a middle ground where both aspects co-exist leaving enough room for both science and magic

 

[Gtdead]

I think both of these arguments(?) are correct depending on the situation/SuperHuman or there is a middle ground where both aspects co-exist leaving enough room for both science and magic

Pretty much every interaction has both a magical and a realistic component. While I'm hard pressed to find a effect that can't be mapped to an actual or theoretical scientific concept, I can't possibly contest that point. For example the Authority, Memory, Dark and Deryl's specific brand of Creation effects are iffy. I can try to fit them into realistic concepts but there's not much point in doing so unless the game gives me a reason to.

The operating word in these premises though is "inherent". If for example Malik's flame burns at 3000 C, I expect it to be capable of melting the materials that melt up to this temperature and nothing else. In the same manner, if an ability's effect is supposed to be equivalent of 100 nukes, I expect that if 100 nukes explode, they will have similar effect on the target, no matter if it's a monster or a man made construct.

 

[ConsciouslyCrazy]

amazing game with a shit ton of content and great story, i have two questions though

1. will some of the older sprites get updated to newer ones in future updates, the age really shows on sprites like Christies, Liz and Ellas compared to newer ones
View attachment 3275804

2.

Spoiler

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Hey man what's up? nice to have you here

1.Yes WeirdWorld the author plans to have everything updated to the new look on version 1.0

2.No idea, probably would get replaced by a random H.E.R.O agent or one of MC friends just like Deryl replacing Danica if you killed her

 

[Gtdead]

2.

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[Gambit33]

At this point we are treading in a bit of unknown territory. MC had too much trouble versus the Twins. Yes Devana can't really do much to him, but Evander can and a level 2 shouldn't have such an easy time going against a level 3.


2) Foxglove Twins getting merged into a Superbeing, permanent or not.

The Fusion scenario was one of the first wild theories since we got confirmation that this is the "Twins Arc". It's also a cool way to avoid the time problem. It will be a new and exciting variable, with the potential to be formidable without going through the usual steps.

The Foxgove twins are shown as being the exact opposite. One is haphazard and extremely talented, the other is extremely dilligent but an underachiever in comparison. One is cold the other is hot etc.

And I think that this is why the fusion theory is so exciting. Because they have the potential to complete each other.

No, let the Foxglove twins stay human, we don't need more pointless drama. Let the MC manage to save them from being abducted.

 

[KKStrider]

I too do reckon that both arguments are true, that some powers produce inherently magical effects that can imitate the mundane, and some produce inherently mundane effects that can be augmented to supernatural heights via magic. The MC is a superhuman I definitely think falls into the latter category and could be used to prove that argument's validity. True, his body may be some sort of soup of organic and inorganic materials that explicitly relies on energy to stay in a specific shape, but I still think his body's materials are mundane despite that.

One piece of evidence he provides towards the latter argument is the fact that he can't just manifest magically tough materials. Instead of just say, making his bones as tough as diamond since it's supposedly magical bone, he goes through the trouble of actually turning his pre-existing bones to diamond. His bones aren't inherently magical and thus capable of just imitating the mundane properties of diamond, rather they need to be converted from one mundane substance to another using Monster Power/Energy as a medium to make that happen.

Another good example that argues in favour of the latter interpretation are the cases of Jordan and Nikki. They don't have Monster Power/Energy; even if they did it wouldn't work to maintain the MC's transformations, as the magical energy source needed to fuel a power is unique and incompatible with other powers. This implies the biomass the MC creates must be simply mundane biological material that just used a magical energy source to generate and shape it. It can't be just a magical construct imitating mundane flesh that vanishes if cut off from a supply of magic, because these two lack any magic to sustain its existence. Furthermore, it's also evident that superhuman cells are still subject to the cell death. If the MC's generated biomass was just a magical construct that evaporates due to bleeding magic, then Nikki and Jordan's parts would probably just evaporate over time since even Ella left dead material about. It'd be especially noticeable in Nikki, as having 300 million magically constructed cells of their heavily modified body evaporate every minute without a method to replace them would probably turn them into something Junji Ito would draw mid-conversation. Yet their parts actually do persist in the absence of magical Monster Power/Energy. Doll Ella's exposition further reinforces this idea. She says us that material made by them require constant energy to sustain themselves permanently, not that it needs to be mundane or magical. Thus implying that what's generated is just mundane biomass that can take mundane or magical energy.

TL;DR: I too think both arguments hold true depending on the superhuman, and that the MC's powers both fall into and can prove the validity of the argument that some superhuman powers have effects that are inherently mundane but can be augmented to supernatural heights via magic. My evidence for this proving the latter argument relies on him needing to replace mundane material with other mundane material rather than just alter their properties, and ordinary humans he's transformed not having altered or generated biomass evaporate despite not having any magical energy to fuel its existence, 300 million cells dying every minute and in-game evidence showing even biologically immortal superhumans such as Ella needing to replace their cells.

 

[sexoffended]

To chime in to the supernatural phenomenon discussion. All monster powers stem from apostles, beings of unimaginable power, who existed from the beginning of universe and represent some aspect of it. Any kind of effect produced by a superhuman comes from a primordial higher plane, which makes them in a sense more real than general universe, but at the same time distant from other aspects of reality, making it all alien.

 

[Gtdead]

The game gives us enough breadcrumps to piece together a cosmological theory. We don't have to create our own threads to follow. We can theorize based on the script. This is my attempt, based on things that happen in the game. I won't say that I'm correct but I think my proposition has a solid foundation and I welcome any discussion on my analysis of the written word. 0.95 was a huge lore dump and after 500 pages we still feel the aftereffects.

"It feels better, but still oh so confined. I don't like this place; I don't like it at all."
"It's part of me, born from me, and yet still.... I can't abide it."
"But I must, there is more I need to do here. Someone I need to see. Their chosen."
You "WherRe.."

What I understand from this quote is this:

That's the Eye saying that his surroundings are born from him and part of him. The Eye is the Arbiter of Matter, his children are Body (Mass) and Memory (Structure). He is the one who created everything that the inhabitants of this universe can touch.

So the implication is that any matter that exists in the game, a common rock or a biological organism, is built from something that he created. But why does it suffocate him? Because following the logic that I will explain later, he is only the matter, not the purpose. He does not decide what others will make of his creations.

The rock, the cave, the tree, the human, are creations of another Arbiter, probably the one associated with Creation (6th Arbiter)

This feed into the good old theory that the Arbiters are the creators of the universe. Aglaecwif hints at it,

Female "As for what power could be considered the greatest.... Hmm, I'd wager you're hoping I'd say your own, correct?"
You "...."
show elinv 207 with dissolve
Female "Hmhm, I'm also tempted to say mine own as well. But..."
show elinv 208 with dissolve
Female "Perhaps Order, would be the greatest power of all, taking the energy required to make full use of it out of the equation."
You "Order? What is that?"
Female "The power to command all things. To structure all things. To write the laws that govern the universe and to have both the Power and the Authority to enforce them."
Female "I've never personally met a being, human or monster that has acquired it since the origin, although..."
show elinv 205 with dissolve
Female "I did, not long ago, hear talk of a potential inheritor, one your Ella had high hopes for. Though it seems to have ended in a failure. A weak mind can ruin even the greatest potential."

The only rational thought I can make here is that Aglaecwif refers to Jake. He fits the description perfectly so it's a fairly safe assumption.
Jake is the spawn of Authority. So if Jake is to inherit Order, it means that it's connected to the First Arbiter.

Now we can create a cosmological theory of the universe:
The First is hinted to be the one that determines the laws of the universe.
The Second is hinted to be the creator of all matter.
And the other Origins affect their respective portfolio.

This also allows us to theorize why Superhumans are capable of impossible feats. If Order is a power, then it can be countered, nullified or overwhelmed.


So to summarize:

There exist very strong indications that everything in the universe is the result of Divine Beings (Arbiters) applying their power.
This means that this Universe wasn't created from a Big Bang or some process that we can conceptualize scientifically, but from some sort of Magic. This Magic created EVERYTHING in this Universe.
The notion is fairly similar to the religious cosmological ideas, but I won't open this can of worms.

-- This is not a fact, it's an assumption. An educated one but an assumption none the less. It may turn out to be wrong so I don't claim correctness, I just claim that opposing opinions need to account for the information found in these quotes.

Now I don't know how various people define mundane, but the simple truth is that if literally every existing object is magical, then no object is magical.

So I define the process by which everything was created as magical and the effects of these processes as mundane.
If something which is supposed to be mundane, doesn't behave as expected, then it seems that some magical process is involved to alter it or "enchant" it but we can't assume that it changes it's fundamental qualities unless explicitly stated.

Spoiler: Example

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[sexoffended]

The game gives us enough breadcrumps to piece together a cosmological theory. We don't have to create our own threads to follow. We can theorize based on the script. This is my attempt, based on things that happen in the game. I won't say that I'm correct but I think my proposition has a solid foundation and I welcome any discussion on my analysis of the written word. 0.95 was a huge lore dump and after 500 pages we still feel the aftereffects.



What I understand from this quote is this:

That's the Eye saying that his surroundings are born from him and part of him. The Eye is the Arbiter of Matter, his children are Body (Mass) and Memory (Structure). He is the one who created everything that the inhabitants of this universe can touch.

So the implication is that any matter that exists in the game, a common rock or a biological organism, is built from something that he created. But why does it suffocate him? Because following the logic that I will explain later, he is only the matter, not the purpose. He does not decide what others will make of his creations.

The rock, the cave, the tree, the human, are creations of another Arbiter, probably the one associated with Creation (6th Arbiter)

This feed into the good old theory that the Arbiters are the creators of the universe. Aglaecwif hints at it,


The only rational thought I can make here is that Aglaecwif refers to Jake. He fits the description perfectly so it's a fairly safe assumption.
Jake is the spawn of Authority. So if Jake is to inherit Order, it means that it's connected to the First Arbiter.

Now we can create a cosmological theory of the universe:
The First is hinted to be the one that determines the laws of the universe.
The Second is hinted to be the creator of all matter.
And the other Origins affect their respective portfolio.

This also allows us to theorize why Superhumans are capable of impossible feats. If Order is a power, then it can be countered, nullified or overwhelmed.


So to summarize:

There exist very strong indications that everything in the universe is the result of Divine Beings (Arbiters) applying their power.
This means that this Universe wasn't created from a Big Bang or some process that we can conceptualize scientifically, but from some sort of Magic. This Magic created EVERYTHING in this Universe.
The notion is fairly similar to the religious cosmological ideas, but I won't open this can of worms.

-- This is not a fact, it's an assumption. An educated one but an assumption none the less. It may turn out to be wrong so I don't claim correctness, I just claim that opposing opinions need to account for the information found in these quotes.

Now I don't know how various people define mundane, but the simple truth is that if literally every existing object is magical, then no object is magical.

So I define the process by which everything was created as magical and the effects of these processes as mundane.
If something which is supposed to be mundane, doesn't behave as expected, then it seems that some magical process is involved to alter it or "enchant" it but we can't assume that it changes it's fundamental qualities unless explicitly stated.

Spoiler: Example

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I think you made a mistake presuming that things in this universe are split into basic reality and it's modifications. Exact opposite is true: 6 or 12 energies/concepts are the starting point with mundane and normal stuff as a muddled byproduct.

 

[Gtdead]

I think you made a mistake presuming that things in this universe are split into basic reality and it's modifications. Exact opposite is true: 6 or 12 energies/concepts are the starting point with mundane and normal stuff as a muddled byproduct.

Are you refering to the split between the "process" and the "object"?
I use an approach similar to religion for this:

Think of it like the ideas of Christianity for example:
The god creates everything, which is a "magical" process.
The objects he created are real and mundane.

Just because the God made a rock, it doesn't mean that we can expect this rock to behave in any way that is not consistent with our understanding. If it does, like for example if it starts defying gravity for some unexplained reason, then it's a miracle (another "magical" process).

If you didn't refer to this then I missed your point. Care to elaborate?

 

[sexoffended]

Are you refering to the split between the "process" and the "object"?
I use an approach similar to religion for this:

Think of it like the ideas of Christianity for example:
The god creates everything, which is a "magical" process.
The objects he created are real and mundane.

Just because the God made a rock, it doesn't mean that we can expect this rock to behave in any way that is not consistent with our understanding. If it does, like for example if it starts defying gravity for some unexplained reason, then it's a miracle (another "magical" process).

If you didn't refer to this then I missed your point. Care to elaborate?

You treat normal universe as a ground zero to measure reality. "Magic" lightning produced by Met is capable of charge kinesis not because it was modified/enchanted, but because it's more primal and free from interference from other apostles. Mundane exist on the intersection of all original energies, and is secondary in nature.

 

[Gtdead]

You treat normal universe as a ground zero to measure reality. "Magic" lightning produced by Met is capable of charge kinesis not because it was modified/enchanted, but because it's more primal and free from interference from other apostles. Mundane exist on the intersection of all original energies, and is secondary in nature.

Assuming that I understand your premise correctly, yes, I don't support the idea that something can be free from the framework created by the divine beings, at least not with significant effort which is probably beyond Met at this point. The main reason is the description of the "Order" power and my assumption that it's the power of the FIrst Arbiter.

We know that there exists a thing called "Higher Plane" which is probably something like the home of gods. Additionally we know that Apostles can't fully manifest in the "Lower Plane" but it's obvious that they can apply their power, creating those avatars. So we see a mechanism for Divine Beings inhabiting the Higher Plane, to shape the "Lower Plane".

WIthout getting into a chicken & egg argument, I notice a hierarchical structure. Something created the Higher Plane and something that inhabits it created the "Lower Plane". So everything existing in the Lower Plane works by the rules of it's creators (which is both a joint effort and we can also observe an order of dependency), unless a significantly strong individual or someone who pulls power directly from the higher plane, or some other edge case, is capable of suppressing these rules momentarily (that's the closest I can get to your idea of "primal" as I understand it).

So in Met's case, I find it more likely that the effect is the result of applying a specific type of magic that comes directly from his Lineage and perhaps assisted by a mundane interaction, than somehow being free from interference / working outside of the divine framework.

The things that can be found in the higher plane are beyond me, and for now I consider them fundamentally different that what can be found in the lower plane.

 

[sexoffended]

Assuming that I understand your premise correctly, yes, I don't support the idea that something can be free from the framework created by the divine beings, at least not with significant effort which is probably beyond Met at this point. The main reason is the description of the "Order" power and my assumption that it's the power of the FIrst Arbiter.

We know that there exists a thing called "Higher Plane" which is probably something like the home of gods. Additionally we know that Apostles can't fully manifest in the "Lower Plane" but it's obvious that they can apply their power, creating those avatars. So we see a mechanism for Divine Beings inhabiting the Higher Plane, to shape the "Lower Plane".

WIthout getting into a chicken & egg argument, I notice a hierarchical structure. Something created the Higher Plane and something that inhabits it created the "Lower Plane". So everything existing in the Lower Plane works by the rules of it's creators (which is both a joint effort and we can also observe an order of dependency), unless a significantly strong individual or someone who pulls power directly from the higher plane, or some other edge case, is capable of suppressing these rules momentarily (that's the closest I can get to your idea of "primal" as I understand it).

So in Met's case, I find it more likely that the effect is the result of applying a specific type of magic that comes directly from his Lineage and perhaps assisted by a mundane interaction, than somehow being free from interference / working outside of the divine framework.

I was pointing out precisely that hierarchy, but without the suppression part.
About acts outside of "divine framework", that's exactly how it happens. Somebody gets a connection to the higher plane and gets an ability to channel them in a more primal way. Closer one is to the apostle, less interference they encounter from others, more complex lineage - more "grounded" powers are. Met's parent Leigong is 58% 2nd, 34% 6th, and 8% 10th compared to pure apostle lineage of his brother. Michael's ability is control over energy, monster or natural alike, while Met is capable only of physical control and imbuement of his own power.