VN Ren'Py Superhuman [v0.996 Public] [WeirdWorld]

[kibaris]

Honestly, I find theory about 10th being Illusion a complete malarkey, and Authority is shown to be perfectly capable of suppressing memories, because remembering something is a behaviour. Jake's weight loss always was about everyone just being affected by his power and ignoring it. Changes are mostly here to remove any potential confusion.

Memory changes perception of the past, not present, unless it somehow manifested into reality, as illusion (Shen) or otherwise (whatever Nico sent sunbathing).

Except for the fact that Autority doesnt suppress them, they block the action to thinking about them, Laurie is aware of it and her memories are still there,she just dont make the connection with Jake power.
It's the same with Jake weight loss, he forced other to think about it beeing normal a certain way , Mc still know that Jake was overweight , because he was more powerfull than Jake and knew him before, when other affected by his power couldnt think about it because of his power prevented them to do so.

With memories power like what Sylla did to mc, he was aware that memory are missing but cant remember anything at all. he can think about them and any way he want but it doesnt change anything , there's just nothing to think about.

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and with enough power you can surpass that order, like mc did in prison

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[Marvoch]

Honestly, I find theory about 10th being Illusion a complete malarkey

Why doesn't it make sense for the tenth to be Illusion? In the end, Shen has powers based on illusion and dream manipulation (so they exist), and Eisheth is the direct progeny of the ninth and all her powers are built around rewriting the reality to her benefit. Given the general trend of the apostles' power pairs, this seems reasonable as an assumption. Will (mental), Power (physical); Body (physical), Memory (mental); Space and Time are in clear antithesis. So the opposite of reality is illusion, or at most dreams or imagination.

 

[myst0501]

Honestly, I find theory about 10th being Illusion a complete malarkey, and Authority is shown to be perfectly capable of suppressing memories, because remembering something is a behaviour. Jake's weight loss always was about everyone just being affected by his power and ignoring it. Changes are mostly here to remove any potential confusion.

Memory changes perception of the past, not present, unless it somehow manifested into reality, as illusion (Shen) or otherwise (whatever Nico sent sunbathing).

Superhuman powers may come from different sources/origins, but that doesn't mean they can't be applied for similar overlapping results. Jake commanding someone to forget something is a good example.

Frankly, I fail to see why the mc couldn't replicate all of the powers jake has shown so far with their own memory powers once he's become experienced enough with them.

I also dispute that memory can't change your "present". Even by the time light bounces of an object we may be looking at and enters our eyes, a small fraction of time has passed. Given that, it is entirely plausible to say everything we are looking at any given moment actually exists a fractions of a fraction of time in the past. With that in mind, there is no reason memory cannot generate real time illusions by messing with someones memories of their perceived present moment.

 

[kibaris]

Superhuman powers may come from different sources, but I that doesn't mean that can't be applied for similar overlapping results. Jake commanding someone to forget something is a good example.

Frankly, I fail to see how to see why the mc couldn't replicate all of the powers jake has shown so far with their memory powers once he's experienced enough with them.

I also dispute that memory can't change your "present". Even by the time light bounces of an object we may be looking at and enters our eyes, a small fraction of time has passed. Given that, it is entirely plausible to say everything we are looking at any given moment actually exists a fractions of a fraction of time in the past. With that in mind, there is not reason memory cannot generate real time illusions by messing with someones memories.

A monster with memory can already doing that, the one that look like Sylla

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and i'm willing to bet that Sylla will teach something similar to mc .

 

[Marvoch]

A monster with memory can already doing that, the one that look like Sylla

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and i'm willing to bet that Sylla will teach something similar to mc .

Yeah! That's what it also think. He will be able to replicate other powers via memory and body. Obv limited by his own power cap and maybe skill set.

 

[kibaris]

For 10 beeing Illusion, i would think that with 9 beeing Truth, 10 will simply be Lie where would fall every form of deception like illusion.
And both would fall under Reality who would be the 4th arbiter.

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for the 1st, we have voice, will,words and he's god's will
for the 2nd every word refer to strenght( lifting, energy,might) and he's god's strenght
for the 3rd basis of life, Origin, flesh and he's god's form
for the 4rd history, adaptation,evolution and he's god's insight
for the 5th we have eyes mind and patience and he's god's age
for the 6th we have the expansion of universe , and he's god space.

For 9 and 10 il could be god's deceit and god's right falling under reality, one bending it to make things true and the other to deceiving with lies

 

[Gtdead]

Thinking about what expressions the various Traits have is a bit like changing ghosts. We also have small nuggets of info that really mess with my perception.

Examples:
1. Ella suggests that Jake's power is much more mentally oriented than it should. She says that he is the type of person who cares more about people than things.

This is extremely interesting, as it's suggests that Authority can be used for objects, not just living beings. The question is.. how?

-At first I thought that it would be some form of telekinesis, or commanding objects to float, perform various functions etc. This is the power of the Ninth...

- It also can't be the ability to change matter's state. That would be part of Body's power. For example commanding things to melt, freeze, explode etc.
- Messing with their energy should be part of Power. Things like forcing items to combust etc.
- Turning them into living objects would be the domain of Creation.
- Annihilating them would be the domain of Destruction.

Does anyone have any idea who Authority could be applied to objects? The only thing I can think of is ..asking a door to open? Basically asking any object to perform the function it was made for? This whole thing seems extremely restrictive compared to Ella's proposal.

I guess if you could ask Tectonic Plates to move, Earth to stop rotating, or the Sun to stop burning, that would be fucking terrifying but it would also require terrible amounts of power that Jake clearly doesn't possess. And frankly I still think that at this level it messes with Truth's portfolio.

2. WW changed every reference to Jake to make it seem like he absolutely can't interact with Memories.

Even that ability to stop individuals from thinking about their memories seem to be a stretch for his powers.
Ella "You fucked her mind in a serious way. Messing with someone's memories like that... It's not what your powers are for. And using them on her while on the cusp of your evolution? Very dangerous move."

So it seems that the reason Mia's brain got destroyed was because Jake forced her to forget. The only way for the affected to forget is to.. destroy the brain? At least this one kinda makes sense?

3. WW seems to have deleted some old dialogue with Ella saying that her trasmutation power is something that not even the Apostles can do.

I put my hand in the fire about this. I'm certain that such a piece of dialogue existed but I can't find it anywhere. I guess it's not that important, but again I feel that transmutation kinda messes with Truth's portfolio, at least in some of the ways we've seen Ella do it. Perhaps Eisheth's domain is part of a more complex interaction, similar to Valravn's heart?

 

[kibaris]

I guess if you could ask Tectonic Plates to move, Earth to stop rotating, or the Sun to stop burning, that would be fucking terrifying but it would also require terrible amounts of power that Jake clearly doesn't possess. And frankly I still think that at this level it messes with Truth's portfolio.

i think you have something here, "I lift my arms and the world trembles and cracks. " it made me think of earthquake,he could have some influence over the law of nature herself and it would fit with some natural phenomenon, after all lightning during thunderstorm, fire with wildfire , wind with tempest/tornado, ice and heat with temperature ,global warming and ice age.


and all that would fall under the 2nd , and Jake whas supposed to inerit both trait, it could be it since the law of nature is also known as the law of the strongest

Edit

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The power to structure all things, to write the laws that govern the universe, influencing nature could be that, earth by herself isnt a living beeing, Fire,Tornado,Earthquake,lightning, temperature are caused and influenced by something else and arent existing by themself.

 

[Gtdead]

i think you have something here, "I lift my arms and the world trembles and cracks. " it made me think of earthquake,he could have some influence over the law of nature herself and it would fit with some natural phenomenon, after all lightning during thunderstorm, fire with wildfire , wind with tempest/tornado, ice and heat with temperature ,global warming and ice age.


and all that would fall under the 2nd , and Jake whas supposed to inerit both trait, it could be it.

Well sure, but since Jake doesn't seem like having manifested the Power trait at all, I'd guess that Ella was refereing to the Authority trait itself.
This particular quote "I lift my arms and the world trembles and cracks" seems a bit literal to me.

"The arm that did the deed disappears, fading into nothing once more, apparently having accomplished it's task."
scene michael156 with dissolve
"While the other, now points at Michael-"
Michael "(Fuck!!)"
play sound "audio/explodefire.mp3"
scene michael157 with vpunch
"He leaps out of the way immediately. There's no time for thinking or strategy, only acting on what he just saw moments ago, that monster being vaporized by lightning."
"But it's not lightning that fires from its finger, instead an orange beam of blistering energy, scorching a hole through earth, burning god knows how deep."
"Michael avoids it just in the nick of time, the monster not bothering to correct its aim as he dives for the floor."
"But... something is off."

He lifted his arm, threw a ray and according to the narrator it burned a hole who knows how deep. With a bit more effort, he could probably crack the Earth if he wanted to.

 

[myst0501]

Thinking about what expressions the various Traits have is a bit like changing ghosts. We also have small nuggets of info that really mess with my perception.

2. WW changed every reference to Jake to make it seem like he absolutely can't interact with Memories.

Even that ability to stop individuals from thinking about their memories seem to be a stretch for his powers.
Ella "You fucked her mind in a serious way. Messing with someone's memories like that... It's not what your powers are for. And using them on her while on the cusp of your evolution? Very dangerous move."

So it seems that the reason Mia's brain got destroyed was because Jake forced her to forget. The only way for the affected to forget is to.. destroy the brain? At least this one kinda makes sense?

3. WW seems to have deleted some old dialogue with Ella saying that her trasmutation power is something that not even the Apostles can do.

I put my hand in the fire about this. I'm certain that such a piece of dialogue existed but I can't find it anywhere. I guess it's not that important, but again I feel that transmutation kinda messes with Truth's portfolio, at least in some of the ways we've seen Ella do it. Perhaps Eisheth's domain is part of a more complex interaction, similar to Valravn's heart?

2. There is also the case of when Jake ordered Laurie to "Leave and tell no one that you found us, don't even think about what happened today." This resulted in Laurie forgetting without seeming to otherwise damage her mind.

3. That reference to them being unable to use powers is still present in the latest release. Its under label train21 in the eventstraining script.

Ella "Hehe, that's right. It's something that even the monsters that made us can't do."
You "They can't?"
Ella "No. They're transformative power is restricted solely to themselves."

 

[Gtdead]

2. There is also the case of when Jake ordered Laurie to "Leave and tell no one that you found us, don't even think about what happened today." This resulted in Laurie forgetting without seeming to otherwise damage her mind.

Kinda makes sense for Laurie to not suffer adverse effects for this (in comparison to Mia). The dialogue was changed to support that Laurie could not think about it. She tried, she knew that something happened, but her brain wouldn't allow her to think about it.

New Text:
Laurie "It's.... difficult, for me to think about. We were sent out with a bunch of others to search for Ella, the two of us found her and... she killed him."

Old Text:
Laurie "I can't remember.... We were sent out with a bunch of others to search for Ella, so I assume it was her..."

3. That reference to them being unable to use powers is still present in the latest release. Its under label train21 in the eventstraining script.

That's the one. Thanks. I thought it was during MC's visit to the orphanage because it was refering to transmuting matter. This piece of dialogue has some important exposition in my opinion that hits a bit harder since the last update. Ella mentions reading minds without knowing about MC's memory trait. It also supports a few of my newer theories.

What utility are you using to traverse the script? I have a program that combiles all days into a single file and mostly using "grep".

 

[myst0501]

What utility are you using to traverse the script? I have a program that combiles all days into a single file and mostly using "grep".

I just open all the scripts in notepad++, and use its search function there.

 

[Gtdead]

I just open all the scripts in notepad++, and use its search function there.

I'm on Linux so I can't use notepad++. Does that function search through all the different files?
If not perhaps you may get some value out of this. It's sorted by days first (number sort, not text sort), events second:

 

[kibaris]

Well sure, but since Jake doesn't seem like having manifested the Power trait at all, I'd guess that Ella was refereing to the Authority trait itself.
This particular quote "I lift my arms and the world trembles and cracks" seems a bit literal to me.

she could also said that because Jake should have manifested both trait but didnt,and autority is the more mental oriented trait when power is more about controling energies that's why she didnt care much about him once she didnt have any use for him.

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For the 2nd it could simply be is whay to use is power yes, it's just that line also made me think about earthquake ^^

 

[Gtdead]

she could also said that because Jake should have manifested both trait but didnt,and autority is the more mental oriented trait when power is more about controling energies that's why she didnt care much about him once she didnt have any use for him.

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Who knows, perhaps that's the reason. I quite like the idea that Authority can somehow affect objects and not just living things. It fits more to my cosmological model of the game.

One reason why I don't put much stock in the Order ability at this point (for Jake at least) is because Aglaecwif also kinda says that you need a lot of energy to use these powers. It's in the exact previous piece of text:

Female "Perhaps Order, would be the greatest power of all, taking the energy required to make full use of it out of the equation."

I really wonder what these powers can do. Truthfully, my previous idea about the Order power looked similar to how Truth is expressed in the game. So I draw a blank when I think about it. And it's not like Evolution and Infinity are easier to grasp. I thought that perhaps MC's tail is part of the Evolution power, or at least some very primitive expression of it.

 

[kibaris]

the brain control the body with some electric signals send through our body, he could force people to act through that maybe, it would be the non mental part of autority.
Or with strings, forcing other body to move against their will, like the 1st did controling Jake and mc body like is puppet and they where totaly aware but couldnt do anything in Jake dream.

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Edit:
Also that line about Jake power beeing more oriented made me think about what Sylla said about Mc more inclined toward body at first even if he already had both trait.

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[JackDiabrew]

During the last update WW removed a lot of text that made it seem like Authority can affect Memories. He completely changed how people understand Jake's weight loss, he made it seem like Laurie remembers but can't think about her time with Tony against Ella. I also think that he added dialogue to Ella making a remark how Authrority isn't meant to be used for Memory manipulation.

So everything Jake did to affect other's "perception" of him was crossing into Memory's territory. He literally removed every mention of the word memory in Jake's abilities and the timing of the "retcon" coincides very well with MC learning new memory stuff. I have a post in the offtopic listing all the changes in dialogue.

edit: What are the differences anyway?
For me the difference is fairly clear. Authority works on Behavior, Memory works on Perception.
Under Authority, If A kills B, he will know what he did, but couldn't do otherwise and may not question the reasons why he did it, thinking he was in the right.
Under Memory, If A kills B, he won't exactly know what he did, either because he forgot about it or because he remembered the scene/victim differently.

The difference with Illusion is that
Under Memory, if A kills B, only A will think that something seemed wrong about B.
Under Illusion, if A kills B, everyone will agree that something seemed wrong with B.

Edit: Found it
https://f95zone.to/threads/superhuman-off-topic-discussion.174695/post-12816370

Pretty sure his name was Troy not Tony, but ah who cares he's dead anyways.

 

[sexoffended]

Why doesn't it make sense for the tenth to be Illusion? In the end, Shen has powers based on illusion and dream manipulation (so they exist), and Eisheth is the direct progeny of the ninth and all her powers are built around rewriting the reality to her benefit. Given the general trend of the apostles' power pairs, this seems reasonable as an assumption. Will (mental), Power (physical); Body (physical), Memory (mental); Space and Time are in clear antithesis. So the opposite of reality is illusion, or at most dreams or imagination.

Shen's power can be explained by strong Memory augmented with Authority. Ella's ritual consisted of making a connection from both points. Same happens to MC - he's being pushed into dream by power with Memory lineage and guided through the process by Syla who exists entirely within memoryscape. Also Shen's ability to manifest some of his illusions physically after 4 evolution is an additional argument for his power being a Memory mix.

My theory for 10th is Lie. Truth works by imposition of concepts and events within certain physical borders, Lie destructs/ereases things and events if they stray outside of a predetermined borders like a deal or vow. Basically it's an explanation for Shopkeep's and Charlie's power.

 

[sexoffended]

Superhuman powers may come from different sources/origins, but that doesn't mean they can't be applied for similar overlapping results. Jake commanding someone to forget something is a good example.

Frankly, I fail to see why the mc couldn't replicate all of the powers jake has shown so far with their own memory powers once he's become experienced enough with them.

I also dispute that memory can't change your "present". Even by the time light bounces of an object we may be looking at and enters our eyes, a small fraction of time has passed. Given that, it is entirely plausible to say everything we are looking at any given moment actually exists a fractions of a fraction of time in the past. With that in mind, there is no reason memory cannot generate real time illusions by messing with someones memories of their perceived present moment.

I didn't say changing someone's perception on the fly is impossible, but rather strenuous to the point of impracticality.

 

[myst0501]

I didn't say changing someone's perception on the fly is impossible, but rather strenuous to the point of impracticality.

Why do you say that? Have we seen an example of the mc or someone else with memory powers doing this and straining themselves?