- Jul 13, 2021
- 922
- 5,722
Shen doesn't need to find any weakness in people. This isn't what is happening here.Memory component will explain:
Shen's ability to find weaknesses in people, channel his power through them, construct entire scenes for them to immerse.
Authority component will explain:
Shen's ability to make someone see memory as something present, keep targets in constructed sleep against their will, compound power of sleep with time, affect someone 1 lvl higher.
Your theory bases everything on dubious speculation of 10th being Illusion. Including the intel required for illusion to be effective.
I used Jake's Imprint and Demi's desire manipulation to prove that Demi has significant Authority lineage. Nothing else.
I used Demi's desire manipulation and scientific research to explain how her power can produce "illusions" and why they are different from person to person an unknown to Demi herself. That's because they are hallucinations produced individually under mind control. Dogs are irrelevant to this discussion because first we don't know and can't research their behaviour in this level of detail and second I used Jake's order to zombies as an example of Authority affecting seemingly mindless creatures.
Demi clearly has power with strong Authority component.
Shen's illusion is memory forced into hallucination by mind control. No new speculations introduced.
1. The humans -> Eisheth illusion was premeditated
2. The trick he used vs Elijah didn't require any specific knowledge, he already knew who Elijah is and he states that.
3. While MC is in the paths, there is no specific instance of MC getting any kind of crippling fear or negative emotion due to Shen's power despite Syla saying that she can't protect him.
4. Against the HERO agents in the Battle of Diamonds, he didn't use any specific knowledge taken from memory, he just overwhelmed him with visages of various monsters.
Basically Memory doesn't have anything at all to do with these effects. Shen creates the equivalent of a horror movie. He doesn't need to know something specific about the audience. He creates a scene and uses his power to do some kind of psychic damage.
I don't disagree that a different power, other than Illusion, can explain Shen's illusions.
1. Memory can potentially change perception in a way that makes humans and humanoid monsters intistinguisable.
2. Authority can potentially force someone to think that humanoid monsters and humans are the same thing.
3. Light can potentially create illusions. After all in real life, what humans understand as illusions some times are tricks of light and odd interactions with color.
4. Dark can potentially create illusions, mimicking things (not sure how, but sensory deprivation is part of the portfolio, like Valravn's Black Night attack stopping sound).
The problem is the scope:
Memory affects a specific target's perception.
Authority affects a specific target's behavior.
Every example you give in relation to these traits has to follow these principles because this is what Jake and MC respectively, have shown us.
I'm not disputing the reason why you brought up Jake. You don't need the Authority:Imprint ability to match him to Demi, her passive is more than enough as it's literally the exact same effect. When MC fights Clover, he has to hold back because Demi's power forces him to not harm her. This pretty much proves the Authority component.
However I'm insisting that Jake's powers affect only the chosen Target. So using him as an example points to Authority NOT working like either Shen's illusions or Demi's object charm.
We need a power that
a) Affects an object
b) Everyone's perception changes in relation to that object.
You claim that your argument about Shen is supposed to eliminate speculation. But this can't be true. Since we don't have an obvious mechanism for either Authority or Memory that matches both the effect we perceive, and the narrator's description. We are forced into speculation.
You obviously have an issue with having to attribute Shen's powers to an Apostle that we know nothing of and I can accept this, but I still disagree with your analysis at a very basic level and your argument is heavy speculation on Demi's powers. I also think that you are trying to fit the data to your theory and not the theory to data, as I've noticed that you take a lot of freedoms with certain scenes, as myst0501 pointed out. We should be able to agree at what the scene depicts, but we don't. It may be my fault, it may be yours. I'm trying to keep it as simple as possible and quote the narrator.
The basis of your argument as I understand it is:
1. Demi can affect an object in relation to a target.
2. Shen can affect an object in relation to a target.
3. Demi has part of the Authority trait because reasons.
4. Demi's charm object ability is part of Authority. <---------- This is where I disagree 100%, Demi has a mixed trait with some Authority
5. Due to 1 and 2, Shen is also part Authority.
Jake is the ultimate authority (no pun intended) on how the Authority trait works. If someone's power doesn't follow the same principles, then it's probably something else. Just because Demi, who has a mixed trait, has a partly similar ability, it doesn't mean that all her abilities come from the same trait. It only means that her power has an Authority component.
As long as the narrator asserts that Shen affects the humans and not the Superhumans, then the effect can't possibly be matched to neither Jake's Authority abilites, nor MC's Memory abilities. It can only be matched to Demi's.
There exist instances where the narrator isn't sure. This isn't one of these cases. We have to take it for granded.
Sorry for repeating myself over and over, but I need to drive that point of my argument.
Past that, we can agree to disagree. No problem with that.