The balance between player input and developer vision

[S1T355]

The question of how much devs should listen to their "customers" and how much should they follow the beat of their own drum has cropped up in my mind a number of times after reading a few different discussions. I wonder how fine is the line that devs would walk to make their game "successful".

In my mind, there a many different types of games and even more paths a dev may take to reaching the end of development for their games.

To some devs, games are a passion project and financial gain is just a coincidence. For these sorts, appealing to the majority isn't really needed and thus input from the masses is secondary. At the same time listening to the ideas of some may actually broaden the perspective of the developer which may in turn improve the quality of the final product.

Other games and their development may have a more financial incentive to it so input may be needed. I pose the question to others about their thoughts regarding how far should devs go with player input. Maybe you're a dev yourself so how much do/did you go with player input?

 

[Nightcrawler]

I think devs should stick to their story.As for player input you can use many methods to engage the player in development give them input on renders eg models tall /shorts /large breasts/small breasts (large/small penis if male ) hair colour ,Give them input on clothing,could add more but you should get general idea .But the one thing you don't give input on is the story it is yours. You do that and you are opening a can of worms for yourself trying to shoe horn things in

 

[anne O'nymous]

I wonder how fine is the line that devs would walk to make their game "successful".

"Would", it depend of the dev and their mental resistance. Some tried to please everyone, few haven't had a mind meltdown because of this.
But if it's a "should", then for me the answer is that they should think about all the comments regarding the technical part and just archive the ones regarding the content itself. The technical part is what make the difference between an average game and a hit. By example, change your interface to something clean and intuitive, and people will suddenly start to like your game. But change the content of your game, and you'll gain some new players, while loosing some old players.
This said, the comments regarding the content shouldn't be just ignored. Look what is said, weight the pros and cons regarding this/that, think about it, and create your next game according to the result of all this.

 

[Gomly1980]

I want to see the story the dev has laid out.

I'd rather a dev stuck by their story than play a cluster fuck of ideas.

Obviously bug fixes, spelling mistakes and problems need player input but story should be left to the dev. I tend to avoid those that have too much player input or they end up a complete mess.

 

[DarthSeduction]

The question of how much devs should listen to their "customers" and how much should they follow the beat of their own drum has cropped up in my mind a number of times after reading a few different discussions. I wonder how fine is the line that devs would walk to make their game "successful".

In my mind, there a many different types of games and even more paths a dev may take to reaching the end of development for their games.

To some devs, games are a passion project and financial gain is just a coincidence. For these sorts, appealing to the majority isn't really needed and thus input from the masses is secondary. At the same time listening to the ideas of some may actually broaden the perspective of the developer which may in turn improve the quality of the final product.

Other games and their development may have a more financial incentive to it so input may be needed. I pose the question to others about their thoughts regarding how far should devs go with player input. Maybe you're a dev yourself so how much do/did you go with player input?

The line, from my perspective is twofold. First and foremost, has the 0.1 or demo launched? If yes, then input should now and forever forward be technically based. If there's an issue with the writing, the characterization, the art, the gameplay, etc, these things should be addressed and fixed as needed. However, if the game has launched and you have a problem with the content, be that NTR, or Futa, or Incest, you're barking up the wrong tree. The developer isn't going to, and shouldn't change to appeal to you.

However, if a developer is doing something like what @Kane 'Vincidon' Salvatore and @Xander 'Clyde' Salvatore are doing with their thread asking for input and ideas to flesh out their own vision before the game's launch, including and incorporating people's ideas into their story, then and only then, is it time for you to bring up your personal fetish and see if it can be added to or taken out of the running for how this game will advance. Their game, as you'll find if you read the thread, is moving along into the first release now, they have a pretty solid framework, and it includes 2 of the fetishes that are the most controversial. The theme is father daughter incest, but the daughters, all 3 of them, aren't going to be doe eyed girls obsessed with their daddy, they'll have their own loves and lusts beyond him, just as he will have beyond each of them individually. NTR haters will freak out over this, but it's just the vision they have for how something like this would play out.

Anyone going into their thread, at this point, needs to acknowledge, that much of that has already been decided. Input on other aspects, character models, clothing and environment assets, etc, is still appreciated though. And that leads me to how developers can and should ask for input. Polls, Summertime Saga, Dreams of Desire, and my team's project Game Legends, are all using polls to determine certain directions we'll take. DoD uses them to add flavour with alternate outfits for higher tiered patrons. SS uses them to decide which line they'll flesh out next. GL has us using them to determine what characters people would like to see us parody. The story is still up to the dev, the content is still up to the dev, but the public gets to influence things that they'll be satisfied by.

 

[♥♦ Xander Salvatore ♣♠]

Though NTR haters are welcome since it should be easy to make it optional.. or at least no cocking

 

[Ataios]

I think making porn games based on "market research" would be difficult at least. If the developer doesn't like a fetish himself, he will have hard time making a game based on it. There will not a "porn game for everyone", because one person's fetish as the other person's turn-off.

Therefore I think, in most cases, it's the best bet for developers to make the games they like themselves. In case of some kinks, it may be possible to turn them on or off, but certainly not for all. Turning a mother into a stepmother e.g. is relatively easy, with changing a few lines of text. Turning futa into women with strapons requires more work but is still possible, if the futa are not futa for story reasons (e.g. in case of an all-futa fantasy race). Being able to choose the MC's gender is a good thing for the player, but it means a great lot of work for the developer and often comes with the assuption that all NPCs are bisexual.

On the other hands there are story concepts that are basically impossible to market to certain groups. If the story is about a love-triangle or polyamorous relationship you will not be able to reach people sensitive to cheating/cuckold. If the game is about an alien race of hermaphrodites you wont be able to market this game to people don't like futa. If a game is about training a harem of slaves, people who prefer romantic games wont like it.

So I think making certain content optional is a good choice as long as it's possible within the story.

 

[User_51567]

That depends on a couple things on my opinion.

But let me start with the most important one...
Creator Creativity, that should be protected 100% of the time.... A pledger or donator should never have influence over a Story or Gameplay.
However..
If there is something wrong with a game or something that could be done better but the Dev simply did not thought of it, that should always be listenend to...
But it's hard to differentiate a good suggestion/tip in the shitstorm of worthless tips (Will come back to that later)

At this point there are just to many devs out here(and there) who think that they can make a game just because they have an idea, but those devs having 0.0 talent/patience or resources for it.
They will start a project but after 1 or 2 updates fail just because they underestimated everything or were just to horny to see the truth.
Those people should listen to the more experienced people out here, and follow their advice to the letter.
I take myself as an example... I have more then enough patience and resources for the game that i'm making, i also have quite a bit of talent.. But not enough to be sure that everything is ok and works good... So i talk to some of the bigger Devs on this site and Discord just to get feedback of what i'm creating and bulding.. They give advice and i'm more then thankfull for it.

But things that are not usefull in my opinion is.
Making polls about content (appearence, names, quests, people).
If you are not sure about what should be in your game.... Then you are NOT ready to make that game !!! .
Clothes, names, quests, people, characters, fetishes..... If you don't have that decided before even making the game, why the hell are you making a game then.
But most of the people who do that are the New devs who just started something because they had 1 Horny idea or saw $$$ before their eyes.. They are not the people who make a game because they have a passion/love for it.
I take myself as an example again.... I have worked for years on a story that i written, last couple of months really fine tuned it...(Still not finished but with over 350 pages worth of story, it's a long way)And started the Dev of this game only in February this year.... I drew some of the character idea out on paper for the last couple years and tried to make it as close as possible with DaZ Studio. (Besides the girl of my avatar, saw her...fell in love with her and had to be in my game )
But everything i want in this game for the next year is already worked out and i know what i want.


But i'm getting a bit off track here, to come back to the tips on the forum.
Like i said, it's always useful to read tips and think about it.
But 75% of the people on this website think that a personal preference is an improvement.
-Someone does not like NTR so demands that should be taken out just because they don't like it.
-Someone does not like that they need to play for a couple hours before seeing someone naked so they demand sex scenes.
-Someone does not like how an MC acts so they should shange it.
And the list goes on and on.
And the good tips on this site are being buried by the Horny horde of idiots who think that the world is all about them and games are only for them..
Person A shouting: NTR is gross, and i don't understand how you could like it, should be out of this game because it's making it worse.
Person B telling: If you make NTR an optional thing in the future not only do you still have the people who don't like it behind you, you also can still create the story how you want to do it. Win-Win.

I'm more inclined to listen to person B then person A.

I think it boils all down to 1 thing.
Listen to the usefull people, ignore the idiots.... Hard part is to differentiate those at times.

Long story over..
Happy Easter ^^

 

[Aeilion]

For comments on the quality of the game (non-subjective), developers should not ignore them but that does not mean that they must necessarily act with respect to them. It will depend on the problem, the progress of the game, the time needed for correction etc ...

For all that is subjective, they should never make changes because of a comment. But that does not mean that they should not take it into consideration. Just that it's up to them to weigh the pros and cons and make a personal choice. If they have already made this choice before and they do not intend to change their mind then they may indeed ignore it completely.

Any comment directing to a + or a - in relation to a subjective subject can hide a comment directing the opposite way so it is clearly not a source that makes the game better or more successful.

 

[DarthSeduction]

But things that are not usefull in my opinion is.
Making polls about content (appearence, names, quests, people).
If you are not sure about what should be in your game.... Then you are NOT ready to make that game !!! .
Clothes, names, quests, people, characters, fetishes..... If you don't have that decided before even making the game, why the hell are you making a game then

Hmm... Not everyone who decides to write a game has already fully fleshed out their idea. My first game that I'm working on is much further along than my second, which I joined the team as a writer for. Both have a skeleton, an idea for beginning middle and end, and all my characters are outlined, but I would be remiss to think I'm infallible and could use some advice on certain, more superficial, details. However, there is one caveat. You don't ask the crowd to give you a random opinion, you come up with a series of options you're comfortable with, and ask what they like most.

Summertime Saga already has each character arc laid out for the most part. When they release a poll asking what people want to see next, they aren't giving them creative control, just allowing them to choose the next part of their nonlinear story they flesh out. Dreams of Desire picks an alternate outfit for each character and throws a poll up to allow their patrons to choose a reward. With Game Legends, we've already built the models we are ready to parody, and letting the patrons choose which we do next is again, a reward. This is a way to let your patrons have done say, some influence, without relinquishing creative control. It's a tool to gain loyalty, and shouldn't be brushed aside so easily.

In closing, I'll point you to my first post and what the Salvatore brothers did. As you'll see, throughout, they came up with their ideas, and people provided feedback. Writers and developers like myself tempered some of their less focused ideas, and other users provided a player's perspective. They just posted what's there if the rough prologue their working on, and to my eyes, they're doing pretty well, in spite of game design by committee.

 

[♥♦ Xander Salvatore ♣♠]

One of the real reasons @Kane 'Vincidon' Salvatore and I are using 'storyboarding' atm other than getting writing tip/advice and some reasonable requests, is so we can see if we should add anything dark/negative into the story.. We had a character setup to have some of the darker tags of the adult genre, recent 'request' of sorts was to remove them which doesn't hurt the story at all to be removed being a side character an all and the character will get her own game later so i can try my hands at writing the darker elements.

 

[TheMann421]

I personally believe that a dev should stick to their story, for the most part. The reason games get big and their content blows up is because they started it the way they wanted, before people get involved.

It's perfectly fine for a dev to turn to their patreon subscribers for ideas and interests on where to take a story, IF they don't have a plan laid out.

My strongest belief, is that NO dev, should under ANY FUCKING CIRCUMSTANCES WHATSOEVER, take suggestions or criticisms from this website or any websites like it. The people here (myself included) are not paying members, and can be manipulative or downright fucking cancerous to a game. If they like your game so much that they feel their opinion should be taken under serious consideration, they should be paying for the game. Everyone else should be along for the ride.

At the end of the day, all (most) of this content is erotic in nature, and you will never make everyone "happy". Taking suggestions from free players is the equivalent of a cam girl listening to the guest users telling her to fart on camera.

 

[♥♦ Xander Salvatore ♣♠]

I personally believe that a dev should stick to their story, for the most part. The reason games get big and their content blows up is because they started it the way they wanted, before people get involved.

It's perfectly fine for a dev to turn to their patreon subscribers for ideas and interests on where to take a story, IF they don't have a plan laid out.

My strongest belief, is that NO dev, should under ANY FUCKING CIRCUMSTANCES WHATSOEVER, take suggestions or criticisms from this website or any websites like it. The people here (myself included) are not paying members, and can be manipulative or downright fucking cancerous to a game. If they like your game so much that they feel their opinion should be taken under serious consideration, they should be paying for the game. Everyone else should be along for the ride.

At the end of the day, all (most) of this content is erotic in nature, and you will never make everyone "happy". Taking suggestions from free players is the equivalent of a cam girl listening to the guest users telling her to fart on camera.

True, but as long as the main theme isn't whats messed with it doesn't matter..
Like with @Kane 'Vincidon' Salvatore and I's WIP game discussion thread (linked in either of our signatures 'Photographer's Delight') the main theme or tag/fetish/genre whatever you want to go with, is incest.. Only things that have really been removed is strong ntr, rape and virginity selling which were not needed at all in the first place and were mostly involving side/minor characters, none of which hurts our main theme or story.

 

[Zippity]

The question of how much devs should listen to their "customers" and how much should they follow the beat of their own drum has cropped up in my mind a number of times after reading a few different discussions. I wonder how fine is the line that devs would walk to make their game "successful".

In my mind, there a many different types of games and even more paths a dev may take to reaching the end of development for their games.

To some devs, games are a passion project and financial gain is just a coincidence. For these sorts, appealing to the majority isn't really needed and thus input from the masses is secondary. At the same time listening to the ideas of some may actually broaden the perspective of the developer which may in turn improve the quality of the final product.

Other games and their development may have a more financial incentive to it so input may be needed. I pose the question to others about their thoughts regarding how far should devs go with player input. Maybe you're a dev yourself so how much do/did you go with player input?

I'm personally of the mind set, that a developer/author/creator should have at least a skeleton (aka outline) of the entire story from beginning to end... Filling in the details either before hand or during development, at their leisure... The fans/players, regardless if they are money donators or not, should be heard, but not necessarily listened to... Take out of any comment, suggestion, submission, etc. (regardless if bad or good) only what the developer/author/creator feels might work for them or help them, and either pocket or disregard the rest... It's the developer/author/creator that should be the only one/s directing the story and/or plot... You can't please everyone, and trying to please one group over another, especially mid-development, is a recipe for disaster 99% of the time...

I've mentioned this several times before in similar threads... If a developer/author/creator really wants to involve their fans in the development process... Do so by offering up choices on things already pre-generated, like models to use for a new character, hair styles/colors, character names, etc... Stuff that is pretty much considered window dressing... Try to avidly avoid offering up choices regarding story/plot direction, character personalities (unless it's for some already planned out unimportant characters that doesn't really matter for the plot/story), and stuff like that... Anything that changes the direction of a story, pacing, or story content should be out of the fans/non-fans hands, entirely...

We've all seen it happen too many times, where a developer/creator/author creates the whole story on the fly, has a bunch of paying fans dictating story direction or complaining about too much story and/or not enough porn, or too much porn and not enough story, etc... And then the story starts becoming chaotic and changing gears partway through the VN/Game, and ends up ruining the whole thing overall, just to please a paying minority... They should just stick to their guns and make it how they want to make it... Take input bad or good at face value, use the input how they want to use it, and go on with their work... Show some consistency... Don't get caught up with the negative either, just go with the flow, and don't take everything so personal or to heart so much...

And I do understand, that for some folks, they are afraid of losing money because they didn't listen to their donating fans... Well, the money shouldn't be dictating content, it should only be supporting the content you already have planned to make... To help make it better, and increase production speed, not to line your wallets while you put out the same ole stuff over and over again, never matching production level to the support level... If money is the ruler of your creative world, then you may want to look into doing something else, because in a donation based world, there will be ups and downs... And to all the milkers out there, shame on you, as I'm sure you will get your comeuppance sooner then later...

 

[Ryder77]

IMO, the project should be the developer's, start to finish. Design by committee, or by poll, only waters down the developer's vision. Having said that, I can also think of two exceptions.

Firstly, seeking player input as a marketing strategy to encourage people to subscribe or pay more for the product. I see a lot of developer's using this strategy on Patreon, ie. in return for paying more, players get a say in how the game progresses. I'm skeptical that this strategy produces a better game in the end, but I understand that it may be an effective tool for making money.

Secondly, in some instances, having a different point of view, or input from others, can be helpful for a developer. It's easy to lose perspective when doing a game on your own. However, input through polls made available to subscribers is, IMO, likely not the best way to go about obtaining this kind of input.

 

[polywog]

Big studios make their money off original Ideas. The big bucks from those, allow them to do more risky small projects, that might not even return the investment. Fan service is secondary. You do your story all season long, then throw a bone.

ICSTOR for example. Never changes the game. Things that were requested.. interracial, threesomes, etc that weren't part of the story, went out in the bonus content.

 

[megaplayboy10k]

ICSTOR does very little interracial content, now that I think of it.
I would say that feedback on gameplay is always going to be important. You could get input on "which side story do we do next?" but I think letting players determine which part of the main storyline(s) you do next is likely more counterproductive than conducive to good game design. Execute your vision for the main storyline and develop the rest as fan service, if you want. If as a dev you noticed a lot of player requests for certain things, consider developing a new game to cater to all that stuff. Put that stuff in the current game only if it fits, if it doesn't detract from the main story, and if it's not a lot of extra work.

 

[HopesGaming]

Many players tend to see it only from their own side of things but it is impossible to listen to the players ideas and wishes as there are so many different preferences out there.

Adding a couple of ideas with a poll from time to time is fine. Since the poll is created by the dev. But overall, it should be what the dev think should be in the game.

The story should never be anything but what the dev is writing. I can't tell how many private pm's I got about story ideas and events people wish to happen in the game.
But all of 'em will go against what my original plan for the story is. But you also feel like a jerk declining people as they have no ill intents but are just very passionate about the game and their own ideas.

 

[Zippity]

IMO, the project should be the developer's, start to finish. Design by committee, or by poll, only waters down the developer's vision. Having said that, I can also think of two exceptions.

Firstly, seeking player input as a marketing strategy to encourage people to subscribe or pay more for the product. I see a lot of developer's using this strategy on Patreon, ie. in return for paying more, players get a say in how the game progresses. I'm skeptical that this strategy produces a better game in the end, but I understand that it may be an effective tool for making money.

Secondly, in some instances, having a different point of view, or input from others, can be helpful for a developer. It's easy to lose perspective when doing a game on your own. However, input through polls made available to subscribers is, IMO, likely not the best way to go about obtaining this kind of input.

I agree on most of your points...

As to seeking player input... I've seen it as well, where developers are using Patreon, and other sites like it, as a way to do business rather then to necessarily supplement themselves while working on their artistic creativity... Patreon was never really intended for that model, but it gets used that way by some folks, regardless... And a majority of the time, when those developers are basically placing some, or most, of the creative direction a VN/Game gets developed, in the hands of the paying fans, 9 times out of 10 it tends to suffer, because of it... Where it might have been welcomed more by the masses, instead it now is intended to only please those few fans willing to pay for the right to control the development... There is a difference between selling developmental control, and rewarding paying fans... This particular model is not a reward, but is a case of money over quality development... It's one thing to allow paying fans to give critiques and submit suggestions, but it's another thing to sell the actual control over how something is developed...

As to the instances where a difference of opinion, or varying fan input, is used by a developer... I've seen several cases where a developer believes their product is doing well, and it might actually be doing well according to the general public... But then some paying fans give a difference of opinion and either cry for changes, or apply pressure to the developer, into altering their product, to fit just those paying fans idea/s of what the project should be and/or the direction it should go... It may even be a case where paying fans stop paying, and the developer panics due to the decrease in funding, and shifts gears in order to pander to those, who dropped their sub's, usually in a desperate attempt to get them to resub, or get replacement subs... That kind of developer behavior happens more then folks think it does... Losing paying fans, may not even be directly related to unfulfilled requests, by the paying fans, but the perception that it did, by the developer/s, can still have a negative affect on development...

The use of Polls/Voting, works best when there are already predetermined/premade things created by the developer... Who then presents them to the paying fans for polling/voting... Things that are usually cosmetic rather then directly related to the story/plot/content... For example, stuff like Hair Colors, Premade Character Models, Eye Colors, Premade Clothing Options, Character Names, etc... Examples of things to shy away from in polls/voting, include basic lists of a bunch of fetishes, or plot points, or anything that might effect the predetermined story, increasing or decreasing the amount of planned erotic/porn scenes, etc... Because then you are basically allowing the paying public to directly control/drive the direction of the over all content... This usually in turn causes story/plot pacing issues, continuity issues, and sometimes game play confusion... It's not always the case, but I've seen it happen enough times to know there are real effects like those... The developer may not even notice, or get feedback about those issues, from the paying fans... Because the paying fan/s got what they wanted, and to hell with everyone else, in their minds... They may not even care that the overall development is suffering, because they got what they wanted...

I've seen a project get half way through production, with over a years development time invested, it was doing alright, but because control was slowly/quickly handed over to paying fans (for whatever reasons), suddenly either the project begins going a different direction, and/or completely changes from what it once was, and/or became a bit chaotic/confusing all of a sudden... I've even seen them start over from scratch, or begin a "sequel", when the original project isn't even done yet... Or the developer begins to get a bit bored, and/or has so many ideas, they begin a 2nd or 3rd project, and now has to split the load... In that particular case, I almost immediately have the word "milker" pop into my head... Because, by prolonging development on multiple projects, or by starting over after getting pretty far into the original project, it causes the time of development to magnify in length... Taking 2 times on upwards to 5 times the amount of time now, to get through all those projects... All the while, they are receiving subs from paying fans that initially climbed aboard before the split/restart, or are so blinded by the hope that they are going to, one day, get a finished product, and/or get that tiny bread crumb of content that took 1 to 3 months to get done, so now, the developer may get more money (from fans of all the different projects) for longer... It's not always the case of milking, but it is always suspicious when it happens, and is usually not viewed positively by the general public... Whom may have been following a given project for a while, want it to succeed and finish, but now it's gonna take even longer, or may never get finished in a timely manner (may even get abandoned in the long run, if one of the other projects is making more money for the developer then the other/s)… But because they can't afford or desire to donate, they are screwed... It may even feel like one or more of those projects are now being held hostage, until more folks start donating, at that point... It is a ploy used more often then folks think... And only if the developer is a studio of many different folks (far more then like 2 to 3 full time developers) working in unison, is there any real chance it will work out in the long run when splitting between multiple projects at once... And in cases where it was not intended as milking, it may still feel like it to the general public, in those few cases I mentioned...

Zip

 

[freedom.call]

Yeah what the Godfather said, sticking to your story is also the best way to keep the passion going and finish the game.

At least I think so, I'm not a writer/dev.