The comunity doesnt use documents properly

[KleptoLizard]

For more good examples and explanations of GDDs, I highly recommend a book called "Level Up! The Guide to Great Video Game Design"

There's one section entitled "No one cares about your stupid little world" which had me nodding in agreement and feeling personally attacked at the same time.

 

[dabuty]

For more good examples and explanations of GDDs, I highly recommend a book called "Level Up! The Guide to Great Video Game Design"

There's one section entitled "No one cares about your stupid little world" which had me nodding in agreement and feeling personally attacked at the same time.

I just found it and I looks interesting. The section you have mentioned is one of the big pitfalls here.

I have contacted a few developers to work on their game and the first thing I want to know is what kind of game play are they thinking of making.
Instead I get a HUGE paragraph on the story background and how the protagonist is going to get horny with the step-mom/sister.

Its ok if they are doing a novel but not any good if they are making an RPG or a point and click adventure. Someone should also do a guide on how to write a porn story that differs from the typical VN here. I have no idea on how to write stories, I dont really care about them.

I hope some developer here reads it, the culture on readinhg books its fading, even with videos if they are too long people dont engage with it. Sad that we have scarified knowledge fro entertainment and short video formats

 

[The Masked Man]

GDDs are useless anyway.
Term's thick, so let's break this up in two:

Waterfall-style plan-execution:
0 (zero) games ever shipped as an exact matchup to their WFlike-GDD spec.
It's an artifact of a failed attempt by business people to control software development, circa 90s? 2000s?
Such GDDs are obsolete the moment they are finalized.
A general outline is more than enough for a solo/small team effort.
Hence no one writes these.

GDD as a general, un-formalized term:
All games shipped used some form of this.
You can say a discord DM exchange between two guys behind a game was their GDD.
You can say a general_outline.txt was their GDD.
Whatever's written down related to a game can account for being a GDD.
Thus it's useless to categorize sth as a "game design document", and we're back to square one:
GDDs are a useless mental/org overhead.

Instead, zero in on a general direction you wanna go and build your game. Keep a log of what you did, what you found, what you've added/discarded. Explore iteratively, it's gonna be fun & fine.

I get a HUGE paragraph on the story background and how the protagonist is going to get horny with the step-mom/sister.

It's a pitching problem. Pitching's a skill. Comes with practice. No GDD would ever help here, even if its a good one that a dev would whip himself hard sticking to.

To boost pitching, start by reading steam store summaries. You'll never see a huge-ass text listing all the details no-one-givesafuckabout, (well most of the time) instead you'll see an attempt to describe the experience the game provides. The why of it claiming some of your precious time.

Oftentimes, people try too hard when they're pitching. Like they're in politics or something. The question to ask is simple: "why would someone play this?"

 

[haksaw]

I have no idea on how to write stories, I dont really care about them.

But not everyone is like you. I care way less about gameplay and never play games without a story. And when someone asks me about some game the first thing I talk about is story, whether it's worth it or not to waste time on gameplay to experience it.

 

[KleptoLizard]

Such GDDs are obsolete the moment they are finalized.
A general outline is more than enough for a solo/small team effort.
Hence no one writes these.

My experience when working in small teams is that you simply can't expect the discipline required of professionals.
It's not just the lack of skill, it's because you aren't the reason they put food on their family's table.
The young guys come in and out through a revolving door and are all enthusiasm, no staying power.
I would prepare materials for them and they would always be too fidgety and hyperactive to actually read them.

They wanted to play, I wanted to work.
I'd prep a Trello board showing the priorities for the different teams and they would all be in the Magical Ritalin Kingdom dreaming up what they would create someday.
Especially irritating is when you are on a Discord with someone and it clearly shows their status as playing a game when they just swore up and down that they were too busy to do their job.

 

[Nutluck]

" The (GDD) is a blueprint for the design and development of a game and is a way to document the development of your game. The GDD is a tool used by game developers to add and edit notes and ideas for a game and keep all concepts accessible to all team members."

Basically, it's written documentation of your game's ideas, mechanics and intended development.

I see and I see why people might want it. But it also sounds like a lot of work, if I actually got paid to work on the game I work for. then maybe but since I do it for fun, because I just like writing stories. I have no real interest in doing something like that, but then you get what you pay for I suppose, which in our case the player pays nothing.

 

[Crooked13th]

I see and I see why people might want it. But it also sounds like a lot of work, if I actually got paid to work on the game I work for. then maybe but since I do it for fun, because I just like writing stories. I have no real interest in doing something like that, but then you get what you pay for I suppose, which in our case the player pays nothing.

Yeah, it's pretty much how you summed it up for the most part. Me, personally, I am just meticulous by nature, so I feel like I need to do this just for the organizational gains. But I understand why most hobbyists getting into adult game development may not want to bother, especially when they're not financially compensated.

 

[DuniX]

I see and I see why people might want it. But it also sounds like a lot of work, if I actually got paid to work on the game I work for. then maybe but since I do it for fun, because I just like writing stories. I have no real interest in doing something like that, but then you get what you pay for I suppose, which in our case the player pays nothing.

This is precisely why I have a low opinion of "adult game developers".
You do realize there is an equivalent for novels where you Outline the Plot and prepare for the "Endings" and things like "Character Arcs" and maybe even a "Climax"(the story kind, not the fapping kind)?
But of course most projects here don't need all that since they will eventually stall and get abandoned, due to "burnout" and the "evil playerbase".

 

[The Masked Man]

You do realize there is an equivalent for novels where you Outline the Plot and prepare for the "Endings" and things like "Character Arcs" and maybe even a "Climax"(the story kind, not the fapping kind)?

I think the reason people often avoid planning in this market is, cash-grab ops aren't interested in their own closure.
Why would you throw in an ending if your plan is to milk the audience for as long as possible?
Just throw in regular sexual content and your golden-egg hen will keep generating revenue.

 

[haksaw]

You can plan for unlimited milking. In fact, you need way more planning for that I bet those trash gacha games have tomes of GDDs filled with monetization plans.

 

[Nutluck]

This is precisely why I have a low opinion of "adult game developers".
You do realize there is an equivalent for novels where you Outline the Plot and prepare for the "Endings" and things like "Character Arcs" and maybe even a "Climax"(the story kind, not the fapping kind)?
But of course most projects here don't need all that since they will eventually stall and get abandoned, due to "burnout" and the "evil playerbase".

Ah I see,

How dare anyone do this as a hobby and spend lots of their free time writing, coding, making a game. only to turn around and give it away for free, yet not do it exactly how I want it done. Those monsters.

You do realize people that write novels get paid for it right? Like I already said IF I was doing this for money and actually got paid to do this, then I would be inclined to make one. But I don't get paid, no one does. We don't even accept tips despite how many people ask to donate to us. We do this for fun because we like doing it and then share it with anyone that wants to play it for free.

As for endings, GL is not about a ending. It is about the journey and we have been pretty clear about that. It is a sandbox life sim with a lot of porn. Or as I like to call it, a western porn parody of a sandbox life sim of a teen girl living in Russia.

It would be like saying what is the ending of minecraft or The Sims. Not all games have "endings" they are sandboxes the players can play in. Players can set their own goals and endings or just keep playing, or play until they want to try something else and then start over.

Of course you are free to think what you want and believe what you. If this is important to you, then by all means find a game and dev style that fits what is important to you and go play and enjoy that, have fun.

 

[trektant]

You can plan for unlimited milking. In fact, you need way more planning for that I bet those trash gacha games have tomes of GDDs filled with monetization plans.

The success of gacha games astounds me. For the sheer amount of quality porn that comes from the dumbasses playing them if nothing else. You'd think with all that cash they throw for some anime titties they'd get bored of the companies so thoroughly exploiting them without even directly providing the porn. I see them as entire communities revolving around character templates... So fucking wasteful.

 

[DuniX]

You do realize people that write novels get paid for it right?

Who would pay them?
Novels are a similar Merciless Market as Indie Games are.
They get paid if they can Compete and are Good. Which is why they are professionals striving to improve their craft.

It's "Adult Developers" that are extremely privileged to get payed the way they are because Porn Sells.
Yet most developers can't seem to even understand something so basic.
You are not "writers", you are not "directors", the only reason you survive is because of the Porn.

If they were truly humble Fapping salesmen I wouldn't have a problem with them.

 

[Nutluck]

Who would pay them?
Novels are a similar Merciless Market as Indie Games are.
They get paid if they can Compete and are Good. Which is why they are professionals striving to improve their craft.

It's "Adult Developers" that are extremely privileged to get payed the way they are because Porn Sells.
Yet most developers can't seem to even understand something so basic.
You are not "writers", you are not "directors", the only reason you survive is because of the Porn.

If they were truly humble Fapping salesmen I wouldn't have a problem with them.

You responded to me, not the rest. I don't get paid to work on GL, no one does.

We survive because we do it for fun and don't ask for money nor take it. There is nothing to "survive" this is a hobby for those of us that work on the game I do and we do it for fun.

 

[Dr. Lewdwig]

Who would pay them?
Novels are a similar Merciless Market as Indie Games are.
They get paid if they can Compete and are Good. Which is why they are professionals striving to improve their craft.

It's "Adult Developers" that are extremely privileged to get payed the way they are because Porn Sells.
Yet most developers can't seem to even understand something so basic.
You are not "writers", you are not "directors", the only reason you survive is because of the Porn.

If they were truly humble Fapping salesmen I wouldn't have a problem with them.

Apologies for butting in, but assuming this actually is the case, doesn't it render the entire purpose of this thread moot?

I mean, the goal of the thread seems to be injecting some businessy professionalism into the porn games; but from that very same perspective, is there any proof that said level of professionalism is going to yield more? Where is a cost-benefit analysis that that justifies it? We have already agreed that porn sells, right?

To elaborate further, imagine an up-and-coming moonlighting dev who's earning 100$/month on Patreon. They do not have an MBA nor do they have a GDD or a classic business plan. All they have is a .txt file noting an overarching story and a list of Kamasutra positions.
The question is, as a businessman, why would they suddenly feel the need to spend their limited time and resources on developing a traditional detailed plan of action or GDD?
Sure, it would be nice to have that (along with many other things) but unless they are going to be graded by the Wharton school of business management, I highly doubt the need for it is justified. It would certainly not be on top of the list of their patrons' requests.

You see the way I recall it, basically all business models (even the simple ones like AIDA) tend to aim for 'grabbing people's attention and retaining it' so that you can further finetune your product based on customers' feedback loop cycles.
But with sex, you are already halfway there. It's like waking up with a boner. You have the attention. All you need to do is maintaining it by giving the customers more of what they want.
Is it an unfair advantage compared to the indie games and such? Sure, but such is life.

 

[DuniX]

, is there any proof that said level of professionalism is going to yield more? Where is a cost-benefit analysis that that justifies it? We have already agreed that porn sells, right?

It's the other way around, if the projects here were judged without the Porn they wouldn't even exist as they wouldn't be able to compete with anything.

To elaborate further, imagine an up-and-coming moonlighting dev who's earning 100$/month on Patreon. They do not have an MBA nor do they have a GDD or a classic business plan. All they have is a .txt file noting an overarching story and a list of Kamasutra positions.
The question is, as a businessman, why would they suddenly feel the need to spend their limited time and resources on developing a traditional detailed plan of action or GDD?

You can do whatever you want but the amount of projects that go nowhere and get abandoned are countless.

 

[Dr. Lewdwig]

It's the other way around, if the projects here were judged without the Porn they wouldn't even exist as they wouldn't be able to compete with anything.

Sure. The key word being "if" in your statement. It's an unrealistic hypothetical, since we are living in a world where porn games do contain porn content and therefor are judged based on that.

You can do whatever you want but the amount of projects that go nowhere and get abandoned are countless.

Also correct. And there are myriads of reasons for that. Devs could get lazy, have difficulty with their first job, familial issues, become greedy and evil, etc. The question I was wondering about (and the thread's) was whether 'lack of sufficient documentation' was a major one.
As a side note, we have no actual data on how many non-porn indie devs start projects that "go nowhere and get abandoned". And therefore we can't have a comparison.
I was one. Started a game and quit early on. My nephew was also one. Since traditional indie games usually don't have the power to grab attention and start Patreons, their deaths won't get documented. Unlike porn games.

 

[Nutluck]

It's the other way around, if the projects here were judged without the Porn they wouldn't even exist as they wouldn't be able to compete with anything.

Accept the reason come here is to find games with porn. If they was looking for games without porn this isn't where 99.9% or more would come. So the main "selling" point of the games here is they have porn unlike games you can get elsewhere.

You can do whatever you want but the amount of projects that go nowhere and get abandoned are countless.

This from talking to a few new devs and even offering advice and then seeing them pack it in and give up. Comes down to, it is a lot more work than most people think to make a game. Most think, oh I can just quickly write up a game and make some extra money and it will be fun. Then after a few months they realize it is a lot of work and they still feeling the pressure to keep adding to their game, until they hit burnout. Then they just give up.

 

[DuniX]

Sure. The key word being "if" in your statement. It's an unrealistic hypothetical, since we are living in a world where porn games do contain porn content and therefor are judged based on that.

Indie Games and Novels exist, if you actually look at the market there it isn't pretty. So there is really no "If" to it.

Accept the reason come here is to find games with porn. If they was looking for games without porn this isn't where 99.9% or more would come. So the main "selling" point of the games here is they have porn unlike games you can get elsewhere.

If they were a humble porn salesman I wouldn't have a problem with them.

But they think themselves "directors" or "writers" and bullshit me with how good their "Stories" are.
If you want to be considered to that standard then you have to live up to that standard.
There are projects here where the developers work hard and consider things professionally.
Others are pretty much a scam where the developer stopped caring and should be considered as such.

But if a new developer with a new project enters the scene why should I give the benefit of the doubt?
Especially if all I see is unprofessionalism? What is the likely result??

 

[Nutluck]

Indie Games and Novels exist, if you actually look at the market there it isn't pretty. So there is really no "If" to it.

If they were a humble porn salesman I wouldn't have a problem with them.

But they think themselves "directors" or "writers" and bullshit me with how good their "Stories" are.
If you want to be considered to that standard then you have to live up to that standard.
There are projects here where the developers work hard and consider things professionally.
Others are pretty much a scam where the developer stopped caring and should be considered as such.

But if a new developer with a new project enters the scene why should I give the benefit of the doubt?
Especially if all I see is unprofessionalism? What is the likely result??

You shouldn't you should only check out games that interest you and if you want to support them after trying the game that is up to you.

I was only pointing out most people come here looking for games, do it because they want porn games and most people that make games here, do it because they want to make a porn game.

Me I freely admit I am amateur that just enjoys writing, I share my work with others. If they enjoy it and it makes them happy. Great, if not then there is plenty of other games other than the one I work on, so hopefully they will find a game they like.

Porn is different than other stuff because the main "selling" point is the porn. I assure you when I watch porn it is not because I want a great story and characters. If they have them great but that is not the main thing I am looking for when I look at porn.

I agree it would be nice if all the games here had it as well, like something as good as Red Dead but with sex, or Witcher 3 but with graphic sex. The differences is most games here are not made by professionals, they are made by amateurs. Some for fun and some cause they see it as a easy way to make money. Regardless though no porn game has never the budget or work force of AAA games.

And yes there is Indy games and novelist but their goal is typically to get noticed so they can do it full time and make the kind of money top writers and AAA game companies make. They don't do porn games because it is a niche market. Those with real talent will make what is likely to be enjoyed by as many people as possible. Same reason PG-13 films is the most common rated film. It is the one that is likely to appeal to the largest audience.

So I don't think you can compare porn games to indy games because deep down they are trying to accomplish different things.