Ren'Py The Headmaster [v0.16.4] [Altos and Herdone]

[Bearded_NoPants]

'kay...

+1

I can totally see a scene like that happening. I'm not into bestiality (I do like Beast, tho. He's a good boy) Although I'm not a fan of the "stretching Rachel" thingy... pussies can take it, y know? They easily adapt to any size of the letter D... IF Rachel (or any girl (staff members included) want to purchase toys, I don't mind what shape they are, that's up to them... So, in conclusion; I think the scene you describe could be a very subtle way of including that niche fetish without disgusting the ones who don't like it (like myself)

DUDE don't go flashing +1 around the place I got enough trouble from the PO PO (moderators).

I think as a throw away scene it would work but as Cartageno said it may cause friction and may not be worth it. Having said that I see another potential scene. Beast has been harassing Donna and after seeing his hard on she may become curious and look up animal "stuff" and run across it. Again these are throw away scenes and I'm just talking...

I'm surprised you don't want to eases the girls in and not cause them pai... DUH! what am I thinking we don't need to eases them in... "OH, IT'S SO BIG... IT'S SPLITTING ME IN HALF!!" I see it now.

First off the bat, I'd like to second Yuserneim's feelings towards bestiality, I'm not a fan, quite the opposite.

But more generally speaking, there are some fetishes which are more controversial than others. Not as many people as one might think are into anal, but in these games probably hardly anyone minds. NTR, Futa, Furry may be more displeasing to those not into them. And my guess is that bestiality is vying for top spot on the list of the controversial ones.

And in my opinion, the more controversial a fetish potentially is, the earlier you should make it clear that it'll be part of the story. Otherwise many people following and supporting you may turn away. And IMO this game is past the point where you can introduce something controversial without fear of a major backlash. Additionally I think, insert fetish and add water doesn't work, if it doesn't come naturally.

Now Rachel using a cat-ish dildo may work, but that is already a bit stretching it (no pun intended). Anything more I would not recommend. And I would say more or less the same if it were one I did enjoy.

All this without wanting to bash any kink nor the people having it.

I'll be honest I'm a fan, but I have a cavity. I only like it in my anime or manga. When it comes to real life it's a turn off. Hell there's a game on the site called Man's best friend where you place as a dog and... well it's not my cup of tea. I don't want to force my fetish on other but I thought at least the dildo thing would be fine.

Let me begin by saying you (anyone reading this) have the right to like what you like. If you like something I don't I'm not gonna think less of you. OK? there is no shaming coming from me. NONE! One of my first jobs was working at a porn store selling every legal porn (in Canada) know to man. You get desensitized REAL QUICK. I special ordered things that would make you happily join the nofap challenge. From Granny Gum Jobs to Tranny Mistresses adventure in forcibly turning strait guys into Anal Size Queens. So No Shaming from me. For me the fetish(s) I HATE with a passion are 1)NTR and 2) Cheating... I hope this is not considered kink shaming I just... I'm not a fan. I get real emotional and upset about them. Then there's shit, piss and vomit. It's just not happening for me sorry. Also I'm not a fan of Furries and Anthro. I know I'm weird, I like animal on woman but furry and anthro? no. Again not kink shaming I feel everyone has a right to like what they want even if I hate it. It's like Natto, some people in japan love it and some think its the worst. (it taste like decay) But they don't think any less of the ones who do. As for Futa well I got into liking it thank's to this one famous silver screen actor from a very popular sci-fi show who kept coming to buy the stuff. All total he bought tens of THOUSANDS of dollars (in cash) of the stuff. Anyways... I got WAY WAY of track. What I wanted to say is that I understand your desire NOT to see the stuff you don't like. I'd be pissed if there was golden shower scene...

You and your puns.

 

[Bearded_NoPants]

Beastiality dildos while I would love to use a horse one to beat Ruth and Donna to death, that would still come under bestiality and thus get the game banned from Patreon, so no that would also not be smart, why not just add NTR to the game too and kill it completely.

I say fuck it, take a page from Harem Hotel, just shove the 10 inch cock up in one go.

Then again, Altos did have a line about letting Debbie play with our pet, having Debbie using dildos or a small strapon could be sexy.

Yes Patreon is very strict. I can think of a few games that died because of patreon.

Ah if only the world was like HH. I'm surprised that no strap-on have shown up yet... That wouldn't be considered NTR right?

 

[Havik79]

Yes Patreon is very strict. I can think of a few games that died because of patreon.

Ah if only the world was like HH. I'm surprised that no strap-on have shown up yet... That wouldn't be considered NTR right?

Yes wouldn't it be nice to have an elf maid.

Strap on as in Debbie fucking Rachel no that isn't NTR, Debbie using a strap on fucking the MC, no but just as bad.

Let's face it, Debbie is lesbian, strap ons are a possibility.

 

[Bearded_NoPants]

Yes wouldn't it be nice to have an elf maid.

Strap on as in Debbie fucking Rachel no that isn't NTR, Debbie using a strap on fucking the MC, no but just as bad.

Let's face it, Debbie is lesbian, strap ons are a possibility.

GOD WHY DID YOU GO THERE! let's not give Debbie idea, yes?

The question is though are elfs gilf porn?

I thought Debbie was a 4 out of 5 on that scale which I can't remember the name of. Give her enough time and she'll love licking clean a "dirty" carpet.

 

[Havik79]

GOD WHY DID YOU GO THERE! let's not give Debbie idea, yes?

The question is though are elfs gilf porn?

I thought Debbie was a 4 out of 5 on that scale which I can't remember the name of. Give her enough time and she'll love licking clean a "dirty" carpet.

As I said, when you tell Rachel to have a shower, and Debbie is nice to her, the MC says he might let Debbie play with Rachel, he also says about getting Sally to use her lick Debbie, or Debbie lick Sally, you got a lesbian character why not have strap on lesbian sex.

Well seeing as Lin is 300 years old, and not a mother, no she is not a GILF, nor would Nia Jin Ann or Slyvia be ones.

What, I knew a guy who loved sucking cock, he wasn't gay, Debbie sucks the MC doesn't mean she isn't a lesbian or bisexual if she isn't sexually attracted to men she is a lesbian.

 

[tricky17]

Does anybody know when we get to fuck Alice ? asking for a friend

 

[Havik79]

Does anybody know when we get to fuck Alice ? asking for a friend

Next year at this rate, we have only had anal with Amy, and sex with that former student who escapes my mind, so doubtful Alice will be fucked in an update for this year, sex with Amy and Rachel would logically come before Alice.

 

[TheDevian]

GOD WHY DID YOU GO THERE! let's not give Debbie idea, yes?

The question is though are elfs gilf porn?

I thought Debbie was a 4 out of 5 on that scale which I can't remember the name of. Give her enough time and she'll love licking clean a "dirty" carpet.

I figure she is about a 4.5... lol Kinsey Scale.

As I said, when you tell Rachel to have a shower, and Debbie is nice to her, the MC says he might let Debbie play with Rachel, he also says about getting Sally to use her lick Debbie, or Debbie lick Sally, you got a lesbian character why not have strap on lesbian sex.

Well seeing as Lin is 300 years old, and not a mother, no she is not a GILF, nor would Nia Jin Ann or Slyvia be ones.

What, I knew a guy who loved sucking cock, he wasn't gay, Debbie sucks the MC doesn't mean she isn't a lesbian or bisexual if she isn't sexually attracted to men she is a lesbian.

Yeah, at the very least, I see a 3P with Debby and Sally in the near future as a very strong possibility. Not to mention Amy as she is used to help train them.

Well, it's doubtful, but we don't know about some of them, Jin and Lin don't have kids, but can't remember if it was said for sure either way on the others, but this is getting off topic.

IIRC, she said she doesn't dislike all guys, just most of them, and she likes girls a lot more. Meaning that she will grow to like the HM that way as time goes on, but will always like girls more. The perfect one to keep your harem in line and ready to go.

Also, we have Sally and Izzy, there is a three-way waiting to happen. We already know the two of them are fucking, that has been heavily implied more than once.

 

[Havik79]

I would assume if Nia Ann or Slyvia had kids then Runey would have said.

Actually wasn't it Debbie said she likes cocks, just too bad they are attached to men, either way I would guess lesbian sex before a 3sum, we have no actually had dick in pussy sex with any of the students in the school, so I would think with Altos taking his time and making us earn it, sex with any girl would be some time off, except maybe Amy.

Given Rachel is popular and Altos has put down that we will fuck her, odds are she will be first or second behind Amy.

 

[Phil5k]

June Poll - Final Results

So, the patreon poll just closed, and I though I'd share the final results here. I've highlighted the option with most votes. But remember, this is just an indicative poll that Altos will use to guide the development of the game. It's doesn't mean the "winning" vote will actually happen (particularly if the vote was close). I've also put some comments in red.

1. Rachel's tail should be a butt plug or strapped to her waist?
1 - a) Butt plug: 315
1 - b) Strapped to her waist: 39
1 - c) I want full neko (bonus choice please choose A or B as well): 118

It looks as if poor Rachel's about to be getting that butt plug up her. Well, that should start to "stretch" her.

2. More volleyball games or more football (soccer) in version 0.9?
2 - a) Volleyball: 297
2 - b) Football: 49

Gee... tshirt and shorts, or bikinis... I think I can work out why this one won. I guess most patreons felt the less clothes the better, right?

3. The blue cardigans, on or off as default in version 0.9?
3 - a) I like the cardigans, keep them for now: 99
3 - b) The less clothes the better: 247

Told you

4. Who should punish the twins through the punishment system, the headmaster and Sally or the headmaster and Claire?
4 - a) The headmaster and Sally: 72
4 - b) The headmaster and Claire: 267

Claire's a fan favorite, so I can understand why this one is the winner. Although from a stroy point of view this one will be interesting, considering what Claire did to poor Mary...

5. Who needs after school punishment training with the headmaster and Amy more: Debbie or Claire?
5 - a) Debbie: 65
5 - b) Claire: 37
5 - c) Both of them together: 265

Because two girls are always better than one

6. What are your feelings about girls with tattoos/piercings?
6 - a) Tattoos rule: 124
6 - b) Piercings rule: 100
6 - c) I don't care for either: 180

This one's a little closer but looks as if most people prefer without either. For info, Altos had already said that this wouldn't be a punishment option.

7. I've aimed to have a mix of girls who are shaved/bushy/trimmed etc in the game. What do you think about the amount of pubic hair the girls have at the moment?
7 - a) More shaved girls please: 148
7 - b) More bushy girls please: 35
7 - c) You've got the balance about right: 179

Closer but most people seem happy with what Altos is currently doing. I certainly think an entire school of shaved girls might look a little weird... although it might be a fun school rule to implement.

8. Would you like to see more scenes with the girls being embarrassed in front of male strangers on campus
8 - a) I'm happy to see the girls publicly humiliated more often in front of other males: 84
8 - b) I'm fine with that occasionally if the story demands: 225
8 - c) I don't want other men on campus for any reason (even knowing they won’t touch the girls): 47

One of the more controversial questions, but it seems most people are happy with it to some degree. Altos will probably be happy with this, as he'd previously said he had a couple of fun storylines he was thinking of that would involve this.

9. Would you be interested in an optional storyline involving pregnancy?
9 - a) Hell yeah: 143
9 - b) I wouldn't mind a pregnancy storyline but it’s not my thing: 102
9 - c) Please no: 115

Closer and again a more controversial question. It looks as if we might be getting a pregnancy storyline, but Altos has already said that if he did this, he'd ensure there was an equally fun "no pregnancy" route. Having two good separate paths will probably be good news to everyone... except the poor guy updating the walkthrough.

 

[Havik79]

Damn, no tattoos or piercings, or more shaved girls fuck.

Well fuck there goes the realism, what school has no girls who have either no tattoo or piercings, not to mention what girls these days have bush.

 

[Bearded_NoPants]

As I said, when you tell Rachel to have a shower, and Debbie is nice to her, the MC says he might let Debbie play with Rachel, he also says about getting Sally to use her lick Debbie, or Debbie lick Sally, you got a lesbian character why not have strap on lesbian sex.

Well seeing as Lin is 300 years old, and not a mother, no she is not a GILF, nor would Nia Jin Ann or Slyvia be ones.

What, I knew a guy who loved sucking cock, he wasn't gay, Debbie sucks the MC doesn't mean she isn't a lesbian or bisexual if she isn't sexually attracted to men she is a lesbian.

When did HM say to Debbie she might be able to play with her? I can't remember. Strap-on lesbian sex is good but two double dongs ass to ass is better. Ever see "Requiem for a dream"?

The GILF thing was a joke. I was thinking of the running joke in that borderline hentai anime where they review whore houses. Also do you honestly think the sex slave older sister didn't have a master with a prego fetish? I'm sure she has one or two kittens out there.

Dude, I had this debate at the porn store. It all started when a customer asked for Shemale Auto-fellatio. I started a poll for shits and giggles and as I recall, Gay guys all said if a guy takes dick he's gay, most strait guys agreed, I think all woman said it was gay and all the lesbians who didn't stare daggers at me said it was gay too. Overwhelmingly guys taking dick makes you gay. I think the guy you know is in denial. Giving dick is a WHOLE different debate. As for Debbie, I remember this survey that was taken at UBC and I remember this one thing to this day and that 80% EIGHT ZERO PERCENT of women polled when asked stated that they would be comfortable with a sexual partner of the same sax. And that less 10% of the women polled said they would not be comfortable with a sexual partner of a different sex. Maybe Debbie is of that 10% but I doubt it. By the way why do I remember this bit of information? Because I have a dream and that dream is to be part a

You must be registered to see the links

. (sorry could not find a better example)

I figure she is about a 4.5... lol Kinsey Scale.

Thanks

Yeah, at the very least, I see a 3P with Debby and Sally in the near future as a very strong possibility. Not to mention Amy as she is used to help train them.

Well, it's doubtful, but we don't know about some of them, Jin and Lin don't have kids, but can't remember if it was said for sure either way on the others, but this is getting off topic.

IIRC, she said she doesn't dislike all guys, just most of them, and she likes girls a lot more. Meaning that she will grow to like the HM that way as time goes on, but will always like girls more. The perfect one to keep your harem in line and ready to go.

Also, we have Sally and Izzy, there is a three-way waiting to happen. We already know the two of them are fucking, that has been heavily implied more than once.

Yay to 3P! I want a three way with Sally and... each girl honestly... eww, wait am I entering Epstein/Maxwell territory?

See I knew Debbie was open to the HMs dick.

I would assume if Nia Ann or Slyvia had kids then Runey would have said.

Actually wasn't it Debbie said she likes cocks, just too bad they are attached to men, either way I would guess lesbian sex before a 3sum, we have no actually had dick in pussy sex with any of the students in the school, so I would think with Altos taking his time and making us earn it, sex with any girl would be some time off, except maybe Amy.

Given Rachel is popular and Altos has put down that we will fuck her, odds are she will be first or second behind Amy.

So doesn't that comment from Debbie liking cock but not attached to men open up Chang getting mixed in?

I hope A&H don't make Rachel into an SAO issue.

 

[yuserneim]

IIRC, she said she doesn't dislike all guys, just most of them, and she likes girls a lot more. Meaning that she will grow to like the HM that way as time goes on, but will always like girls more. The perfect one to keep your harem in line and ready to go.

Also, we have Sally and Izzy, there is a three-way waiting to happen. We already know the two of them are fucking, that has been heavily implied more than once.

Am I the only one seeing Faye and Nina story going that way?

Closer and again a more controversial question. It looks as if we might be getting a pregnancy storyline, but Altos has already said that if he did this, he'd ensure there was an equally fun "no pregnancy" route. Having two good separate paths will probably be good news to everyone... except the poor guy updating the walkthrough.

goddamit!

the guy updating the walkthrough and the guy updating where you can find the girls.

Damn, no tattoos or piercings, or more shaved girls fuck.

Well fuck there goes the realism, what school has no girls who have either no tattoo or piercings, not to mention what girls these days have bush.

I know a few girls with bushes... Also, it's not like you have a place in town where the girls could go and get waxed, bushes are gonna happen.

I'm with you on the tattooes and piercings, but it's not the biggest of deals for me.

 

[Bearded_NoPants]

June Poll - Final Results

So, the patreon poll just closed, and I though I'd share the final results here. I've highlighted the option with most votes. But remember, this is just an indicative poll that Altos will use to guide the development of the game. It's doesn't mean the "winning" vote will actually happen (particularly if the vote was close). I've also put some comments in red.

1. Rachel's tail should be a butt plug or strapped to her waist?
1 - a) Butt plug: 315
1 - b) Strapped to her waist: 39
1 - c) I want full neko (bonus choice please choose A or B as well): 118

It looks as if poor Rachel's about to be getting that butt plug up her. Well, that should start to "stretch" her.

2. More volleyball games or more football (soccer) in version 0.9?
2 - a) Volleyball: 297
2 - b) Football: 49

Gee... tshirt and shorts, or bikinis... I think I can work out why this one won. I guess most patreons felt the less clothes the better, right?

3. The blue cardigans, on or off as default in version 0.9?
3 - a) I like the cardigans, keep them for now: 99
3 - b) The less clothes the better: 247

Told you

4. Who should punish the twins through the punishment system, the headmaster and Sally or the headmaster and Claire?
4 - a) The headmaster and Sally: 72
4 - b) The headmaster and Claire: 267

Claire's a fan favorite, so I can understand why this one is the winner. Although from a stroy point of view this one will be interesting, considering what Claire did to poor Mary...

5. Who needs after school punishment training with the headmaster and Amy more: Debbie or Claire?
5 - a) Debbie: 65
5 - b) Claire: 37
5 - c) Both of them together: 265

Because two girls are always better than one

6. What are your feelings about girls with tattoos/piercings?
6 - a) Tattoos rule: 124
6 - b) Piercings rule: 100
6 - c) I don't care for either: 180

This one's a little closer but looks as if most people prefer without either. For info, Altos had already said that this wouldn't be a punishment option.

7. I've aimed to have a mix of girls who are shaved/bushy/trimmed etc in the game. What do you think about the amount of pubic hair the girls have at the moment?
7 - a) More shaved girls please: 148
7 - b) More bushy girls please: 35
7 - c) You've got the balance about right: 179

Closer but most people seem happy with what Altos is currently doing. I certainly think an entire school of shaved girls might look a little weird... although it might be a fun school rule to implement.

8. Would you like to see more scenes with the girls being embarrassed in front of male strangers on campus
8 - a) I'm happy to see the girls publicly humiliated more often in front of other males: 84
8 - b) I'm fine with that occasionally if the story demands: 225
8 - c) I don't want other men on campus for any reason (even knowing they won’t touch the girls): 47

One of the more controversial questions, but it seems most people are happy with it to some degree. Altos will probably be happy with this, as he'd previously said he had a couple of fun storylines he was thinking of that would involve this.

9. Would you be interested in an optional storyline involving pregnancy?
9 - a) Hell yeah: 143
9 - b) I wouldn't mind a pregnancy storyline but it’s not my thing: 102
9 - c) Please no: 115

Closer and again a more controversial question. It looks as if we might be getting a pregnancy storyline, but Altos has already said that if he did this, he'd ensure there was an equally fun "no pregnancy" route. Having two good separate paths will probably be good news to everyone... except the poor guy updating the walkthrough.

THANKS!! Ok... my two cents
1) YES!!! I'm not surprised to be honest. See people what to be nice to Rachel and train her well.
2) YES!!! *cough* Your forgetting the jiggle. Tight volley ball clothing and bikinis is nice but seeing that nice tanned and oiled up skin glisten in the sun and then seeing those cute firm asses jiggle on impact.... MMM MM! As popular a Male SOCCER is Female volley ball can't be beat. the numbers don't lie.
3) I voted B but I was close to voting yes. Had the option be JUST the vest I would of voted that. Now A&H can make the white blouses sheer because of the humidity.
4) I'm honestly shocked. I don't think Claire is ready yet and she does not have the stamina to punish two girls not do I think she's one for sexy times. Sally would of been a better pick but the people have spoken.
5) OUI!!! Technically it's three girls but who cares. I think this will help Claire develop more. And Debbie can practice her orator skills.
6) I wanted tattoos and piercings because I wanted ownership public tattoos and genital piercings. I mean what better when to attack a leash then on a clit ring.
7) Balance to the force is important.
8) AS LONG AS THERE'S NO NTR.
9) YES!!! BABY BUMPS!!!

Well I'm glad with the outcome.

 

[Cartageno]

what girls these days have bush.

Dunno why Yuserneim stroke his answer, but it may depend on where you are and how the ladies feel the need to be prepared - many dislike the process and do it just to look better. If nobody's watching, discipline may get lax. My experience with (older than in the game) women tells me that the majority (sample size not large enough to make it an official statistic) here has properly trimmed, so not a bush but not clean shaven either. And while I am no expert on the same for younger women (i. e. schoolgirls), I can easily imagine that especially less sexually active girls won't feel the need. And remember, we're in a time and place, where "Earth is a couple thousand years old" is taught by some. Which may also account for a lack of tats and piercings, although that is less likely in our world. But maybe in this near-future UK that is also not really allowed for people under 21, after all, we worry about the youth's morality.

 

[Bearded_NoPants]

Damn, no tattoos or piercings, or more shaved girls fuck.

Well fuck there goes the realism, what school has no girls who have either no tattoo or piercings, not to mention what girls these days have bush.

Yeah it's fashionable to be smooth. Side note you'd be surprised how hard it was to find beaver porn before the porn crash.

Am I the only one seeing Faye and Nina story going that way?

goddamit!
the guy updating the walkthrough and the guy updating where you can find the girls.

I know a few girls with bushes... Also, it's not like you have a place in town where the girls could go and get waxed, bushes are gonna happen.

I'm with you on the tattooes and piercings, but it's not the biggest of deals for me.

Faye and Nina how so, please details. *hands rubbing together*

You know you love it!

to my recollection (back in the 90s) most high school girls where either still developing or had wild amazon jungles. I don't know what it's like today because I don't want to go to jail. Once they finish high school and move out, even those christian girls who don't consider sex outside of marriage rape will maintain the lawn. Easiest hooks up are bible camp and prayer group. I tell you it's hard not to lose it when everone sees the pub sticking to the side of a girls face and no one is acknowledging it.

Dunno why Yuserneim stroke his answer, but it may depend on where you are and how the ladies feel the need to be prepared - many dislike the process and do it just to look better. If nobody's watching, discipline may get lax. My experience with (older than in the game) women tells me that the majority (sample size not large enough to make it an official statistic) here has properly trimmed, so not a bush but not clean shaven either. And while I am no expert on the same for younger women (i. e. schoolgirls), I can easily imagine that especially less sexually active girls won't feel the need. And remember, we're in a time and place, where "Earth is a couple thousand years old" is taught by some. Which may also account for a lack of tats and piercings, although that is less likely in our world. But maybe in this near-future UK that is also not really allowed for people under 21, after all, we worry about the youth's morality.

Oh manscaping is a pain but the girls appreciate it. You want to present a nice package... I appreciate when a girl maintains the front yard. for example east European girls that don't maintain are very sour... and the smell is not... nice. Honestly good grooming means a good and caring partner. It's just it can get itchy.

 

[yuserneim]

Dunno why Yuserneim stroke his answer,

I have no idea either. apparently, I like striking sentences.

Faye and Nina how so, please details. *hands rubbing together*

Dunno, It's pretty subtle* , but everytime I see them together I get that huge vibe. It might have something to do with Nina mysterious aura and Faye looks so innocent and she had a bad experience with boys. It's like putting legos together, it just fit.

*: Look, have you seen the scene where Faye got punished by evil- power driven Miss Potts? Pay close attention who's the one feeling bad for her (and breaking character in the process)

The discussion about bushes is fun but ultimately pointless. Look, we've seen everyone naked from the waist down and most girls have their bits trimmed. Only a handful of girls remain to be seen naked, so IF there's a jungle around campus we'll see it in time... (Ada and new girl Zoe are the only two students who we can't be certain what they look like down there, as for staff members; Sammy, Izzy and Nurse Robinson)

 

[Cartageno]

Oh manscaping is a pain but the girls appreciate it. You want to present a nice package... I appreciate when a girl maintains the front yard. for example east European girls that don't maintain are very sour... and the smell is not... nice. Honestly good grooming means a good and caring partner. It's just it can get itchy.

Yeah, I do that too, not every day though, especially when there is no chance of people seeing it. And dermatologists hate shaving, what with inflammations around the hair roots and all that stuff (which also can be very ... not nice, as I can attest). Can't say I ever noticed any difference in smell, but my nose is not very sensitive, so there's that.

 

[Cartageno]

The discussion about bushes is fun but ultimately pointless. Look, we've seen everyone naked from the waist down and most girls have their bits trimmed.

I think that bushes as in 1970's movies are out of the question, I understood the question as "trimmed or clean shaven".

 

[yuserneim]

I think that bushes as in 1970's movies are out of the question

You are probably right, but we might find a surprise, who knows?