RPGM The Last Sovereign [v0.77.2] [Sierra Lee]

[Yukihirou]

But really noone says Simon is a Saint, there is no black and white or good and evil in the world, the whole point of the story is about it being an chaotic mix/mess.

yeah, I would have bought it had he not been holier than thou and gave a feel good speech about community then murdered the guy in cold blood.

If he only did... wait that's EXACTLY what he does in Yhilin

That's later, after he changed, after he met many people,foes and allies, after he gained the power and momentum to change things around. I'm talking beginning of the game, Like I said, Simon at the beginning is just him being a mega douche cuz of his petty hatred and he had the balls to justify it as doing good for the community.

 

[manscout]

Lmao, "preying on this community",
Supply and Demand, beside alcohol is not banned and are cheap af.

Bar guy was the worst guy around with anything worth stealing when Simon needed to raise money quickly to get anything done, simple as that. Killing him didn't improve things in Feroholm and it was never meant to, but he had a product whose value was put to better use by Simon than it would have been by the bar owner who had an active interest in keeping Feroholm shitty because it was easier to exploit it that way (so killing him didn't make things worse either).

I'm fine with those. Just feeling calling out Simon's blatant hypocrite act at the beginning. What he did after fit a narrative, but at the beginning of the game ? It's just Simon being a douche over his petty opinion on the bar owner, why not kill the old woman bar owner in chapter 2 then ? Or did he realize his mistake ? Or simply because Simon did not hold a grudge with this old lady, compared to the previous bar owner ?

There's a conversation in chapter 5 addressing the killing of the bar owner, after you invest a few million ProN into improving Feroholm. I will put the gist of it in spoilers in case you care about experiencing it yourself:

Spoiler

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[Avaron1974]

Lmao, "preying on this community",
Supply and Demand, beside alcohol is not banned and are cheap af.

That's where you are missing the point, the acohol he was selling wasn't cheap, he was ripping them off.

 

[Maizemallard]

Population demands beer
Bar owner fills demand
Simon kills bar owner
Population still wants beer
Bar owner gets replaced and People once again buy beers and the same issues persist

So What Bar owner deserves to die because he was mean? Give the dude some slack he had to live through through the war, Run the bar by himself, has to live in a crap town, has to listen to Simon whine and all while being old I would be a little jaded too. There is plenty of others bars in poorer districts that do the same thing but they get a pass because they aren't as mean. Not to mention it was completely unnecessary to kill the bar owner Simon could have used the succbi to get him away or wait till he went home and then steal his supply But he didn't And honestly we don't the know the bar owners life he could have had a daughter or a wife that he was caring for maybe he even was a veteran or doctor in the past. Also with how the new bar owner is an old women that could be his wife that took over the business. And if Simon did recognize the bar owner wasn't the main issue why did he kill him? We didn't even see his prices so we don't even know if he was ripping people off. Even if he did raise prices does that really warrant death?

Edit: Tris encouraged war, Riala left altina to get raped, Varia killed people and robbed people but they get to live because they were regretful and nice but bar owner is awful and deserves to die because he sold beer and was mean....

Spoiler

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[Evangelion-01]

That's later, after he changed, after he met many people,foes and allies, after he gained the power and momentum to change things around. I'm talking beginning of the game, Like I said, Simon at the beginning is just him being a mega douche cuz of his petty hatred and he had the balls to justify it as doing good for the community.

No actually he does so in the Merchant Camp right after selling his illgotten goods, you seem to forget him helping Megail uncovering a Slave trade and dealing with that, in a way even Megail didn't anticipate, since he has a passionate hate for slavery.
Also the Man is a man of integrety... for the better or worse.
Even if he has his weak moments he has a HARD time to change... one of the reasons his "Harem" is growing so slowly... or the fact htat he calls it so.

 

[Fulminato]

Lmao, "preying on this community",
Supply and Demand, beside alcohol is not banned and are cheap af.

are you sure?

 

[master09999]

hey, are there any save's before Simon's route in the orgasmic empire following the thosaha's playthrough.

 

[Avaron1974]

Edit: Tris encouraged war, Riala left altina to get raped, Varia killed people and robbed people but they get to live because they were regretful and nice but bar owner is awful and deserves to die because he sold beer and was mean....

Trin is a unique slave mage with an incredibly rare ability, Riala is probably the most powerful Succubus alive that isn't a shard baring Empress and Varia is protected by destiny.

Who is the bar man again?

 

[Yukihirou]

are you sure?

I don't see any wrong with this, what's your take ?
Is the bar owner the one worsening the situation ? Though policing much , Hello ?

 

[Fulminato]

I don't see any wrong with this, what's your take ?
Is the bar owner the one worsening the situation ? Though policing much , Hello ?

it's the textbook definition of "preying on this community"

 

[Avaron1974]

I've seen some pointless discussions before but complaining a no named npc gets killed at the start of a game is a first. It's not like his fate is ever going to change.

 

[Yukihirou]

it's the textbook definition of "preying on this community"

Did absolutely fucking nothing aside from waiting for customers to come on their own volition = "preying on this community"

gonna crack open a cold one in memory of bar owner dying to Simon's clown act

I've seen some pointless discussions before but complaining a no named npc gets killed at the start of a game is a first. It's not like his fate is ever going to change.

Not pointless, just pointing out the hypocrite Simon was at the beginning. Does it change anything ? No.

 

[Yukihirou]

Second is that quite simply mercy is a luxury of the powerful, if Simon could have pulled 20k ProN out of his ass at the start of the game without hurting anyone, he probably would have ignored the bar owner. But he needed the money to get anything started or else he would probably miss his only chance to make a positive and significant impact on the world. But just because he was willing to kill to get what he needed, that doesn't mean he was gonna start killing indiscriminately, hence why he still justifies the bar owner as the "least worst" kill he could have made to get his plans started at that point.

Lmao, So I guessed right, dude just want a legit fast way to get rich and the old bar owner is easy target + Simon can just swallow the guilt or erase it by giving feel good speech about community and declare bar owner evil hence guilty/death sentence. Megadouche move to fuck over someone's life, power do change people after all, understandable.

 

[Fulminato]

Did absolutely fucking nothing aside from waiting for customers to come on their own volition = "preying on this community"

gonna crack open a cold one in memory of bar owner dying to Simon's clown act

a scavenger a necrophage or similar don't actual kill the things they are robbin or eating, but they profit over the death of some other things. period.

you can agree or disagree with the morality of the act of killing a scavenger fattening over the misfortune of the people around him.

but you cannot change the fact he is fattening over the misfortune of the people around him, and he is well conscious of it.

 

[manscout]

Lmao, So I guessed right, dude just want a legit fast way to get rich and the old bar owner is easy target + Simon can just swallow the guilt or erase it by giving feel good speech about community and declare bar owner evil hence guilty/death sentence. Megadouche move to fuck over someone's life, power do change people after all, understandable.

Simon could have done that at any point before in his life, he did not need an Incubus King shard to kill an asshole and steal his stuff. It was not so much about the bar owner being an "easy target" as much as being the only target in Feroholm.

He never did it before because it wouldn't have mattered, even if he could have been personally well-off and done some Robin Hood shit, none of that would have ever been enough to help actually defeat the Incubus King and make sweeping and systemic improvements to the world. He kept working with the Chosen for like 20 years instead of building his own wealth and power because he understood that his best shot at making a difference was helping someone who actually had the potential to grow more powerful than he ever could.

Getting the shard changed all that because it gave him the potential to actually achieve his big goals himself, so now he needed to build his own power foundation instead of working for other people using means that had failed him for over half his life. Time was ticking and the world was already a powder keg, he didn't have the luxury to work another 20 years to build his own wealth while people are suffering and huge wars are in the horizon, so he took out the worst person that had what he needed to start making a positive change, simple as that.

If you still think Simon was being "just a douche" about killing the bar owner after all the good he managed to do with what he gained from killing him, then you are kind of an intractable moralist or just trolling at this point, specially considering the other half of my post was Simon stating precisely that actually having more power (real power, not the potential for power) actually made him more cautious about how he uses his power rather than more ruthless and reckless.

 

[Maizemallard]

Lets summarize this so we can all move on and people can decide if killing The bar owner was the correct choice

Is bar owner a dick: Yes
Is Bar owner capitalizing on a bad situation: Yes
Is bar owner forcing people to come to his bar: No
Is bar owner rich: Most likely not feroholm doesn't get much travelers, poor area and unless bar owner has a mansion outside of town he probably lives in the rundown houses.
Will killing bar owner stop demand for beer and fix the core issues: No
Did killing bar owner fix Anything: No he was replaced
Was bar owner raising price: maybe. Simon never mentioned prices but the bar owners Demeanor could suggest so
Was it necessary to kill bar owner to get his stock: Debatable

Now the question Did bar owner deserve to die: Personally no. Simon Just needed his stock he didn't need to kill him As I mentioned before Simon could have used the succbui to distract him or just wait till he went home. The bar owner was Benefiting off a bad situation But he no way caused it and killing him Achieved nothing but taking a life. Simon Can help create a bar near stineford, Simon allows people who did much worse into his party and rarely Questions their past actions(besides Trin), Simon Raiding a city resulting in numerous Innocent lives lost even with a good outcome, Simon benefiting off bad situations using a crisis of war or disaster to Improve his position there is plenty of times where Simon can decide to directly support his cause over the lives of others So how can people say Bar owner deserved to die When Simon himself has done much worse than sell a few beers. Did Simon do all those action to try and improve lives yes But its undeniable that Simon caused way more damage than a simple bar owner. I feel there isn't enough justification to warrant the death of the bar owner

Does this mean Simon is a bad character? No people are just pointing out that the Simons dislike of the bar owner and him murdering him was Just a tad silly but isn't a huge issue. (its more a morality argument about Whether killing bar owner was right then actually about Simons character or the writing)

 

[Avaron1974]

Simon didn't do it to improve lives. Simon did it to get the stock from the bar to start his economic journey.

He needed enough produce to bring to a decent merchent, the barman had that produce. Killing him was just a bonus.

 

[manscout]

Now the question Did bar owner deserve to die: Personally no. Simon Just needed his stock he didn't need to kill him As I mentioned before Simon could have used the succbui to distract him or just wait till he went home. The bar owner was Benefiting off a bad situation But he no way caused it and killing him Achieved nothing but taking a life. Simon Can help create a bar near stineford, Simon allows people who did much worse into his party and rarely Questions their past actions(besides Trin), Simon Raiding a city resulting in numerous Innocent lives even with a good outcome, Simon benefiting off bad situations himself using a crisis of war or disaster to Improve his position there is plenty of times where Simon can decide to directly support his cause over the lives of others So how can people say Bar owner deserved to die When Simon himself has done much worse than sell a few beers. Did Simon do this to improve lives yes But its undeniable that Simon caused way more damage than a simple bar owner

Does this mean Simon is a bad character? No people are just pointing out that the Simons dislike of the bar owner and him murdering him was Just a tad silly but isn't a huge issue. (its more a morality argument about Whether killing bar owner was right then actually about Simons character or the writing)

What good did the bar owner ever do? Simon caused damage but also successfuly made things magnitudes better in the aftermath, as it was always his goal, they are not comparable characters. Bar owner was a guy all too happy about taking advantage of people in a difficult situation solely for his own personal gain and he was perfectly happy keeping things like that, in fact he would have probably actively resisted any future efforts of "fixing up" Feroholm since it could threaten his racket. Also while the guy wasn't "mansion" levels of wealthy, if the guy had a stock of fucking 20k ProN worth of product then his business was DEFINITELY not struggling.

Also "selling alcohol" is not black and white. You can sell alcohol and still have a concern for the well-being of your clients (refuse service when they had too much, advise them to ease up on it if they are in a vulnerable spot instead of bleeding them dry), or you can foster addiction and shamelessly take advantage of people that got a fucked up life. Simon disliking the bar owner heavily suggests he did the later. In fact there is explicit mention that the succubi bar that Simon helps open in Stineford leads to less passed out drunks, indicating the owner of that bar is trying to create a relaxed environment for them to drink instead of mercilessly preying on their addiction.

Just to rest my piece, do I think the Feroholm bar owner deserved to die? In isolation, no (not to say he is without fault, just that a death sentence in itself would be too harsh). Do I care that Simon killed him if it helped him achieve everything he eventually achieved as if that somehow undermines what Simon stood for? Heck no, if people think that Simon doing that somehow means he is a fraud despite everything else he did then I feel those people missed the point or are just joking around.

 

[Yotetar]

Are you discussing about the bar owner who only had like 5 phrases on the entire game?
Yes, you are discussing anout that.
Why not discussing about the fucklord and how he found an incredible demon speciment like Sabitha? Is not like there are a lot of demons like her, Lilith is the other one.

 

[Avaron1974]

Are you discussing about the bar owner who only had like 5 phrases on the entire game?
Yes, you are discussing anout that.
Why not discussing about the fucklord and how he found an incredible demon speciment like Sabitha? Is not like there are a lot of demons like her, Lilith is the other one.

Sabitha wasn't Sabitha when he found her if you listen to the story around her, she didn't have a physical body. Fucklord forced her into that body for his own amusement which was basically torture for her.

It's the reason she ends up joining Simon, she can't rejoin her kind like she once could.