VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.5.0.4p] [Ceolag]

[Dessolos]

It's not that I disagree, but what could she tell him that would make a difference without giving the whole game away? He already knew she was a covert operative who spent more time working than she did with him. She even flat out told him she was in Neverwhere at one point, for all the good that would do him.

Sure, she could say she's reluctant to start anything formal with the MC because of her job, but she knows he wouldn't let her leave it at that. He'd want to know why, and at that point she'd either have to fess up or break things off completely - both of which are valid choices and we could argue their virtues, but I can understand why she didn't want to open that can of worms.

yeah I see that however unless i'm miss remembering I think the MC was always fishing for answers about her work. Assuming im not miss remembering I just feel maybe if she threw him a bone and made up some stories about a mission here and there instead of saying it's top secret / it's confidential all the time since it wasn't the truth anyways. It would of played out a little better and he wouldn't be so stressed out and wondering what is she hiding. Cause I think the MC was a bit skeptical about her job cause of how secretive she was , and feeling stressed out over it.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

What tyranny? They're a hidden society that seems to specialize in organizational paralysis. It's unclear they could dominate the local coffee shop even if the MC's father was around to break ties.

Agree. They aren't in a very good shape to do much of anything.

/QUOTE]
I don't think you're entitled to someone's secrets just because you're dating them, especially not secrets that could literally get people killed. As ThorinKing said, the ring is symbolic because marriage is generally considered the most significant commitment you can make to another person; that's the point at which all your cards should be on the table (even if a few of them have to be kept face down for security purposes).
[/QUOTE]
If you have moved in with the someone then that is the time to start revealing secrets. Your partner should know before the altar. Its not fair to your partner or yourself to go in to a marriage with secrets so they need to come out before the wedding.

Kaija and the MC weren't even officially dating, so I don't find it surprising she didn't spill the beans on the hidden world to the MC. That's a life-changing revelation if ever there was one. If their relationship had continued to deepen then I agree there would come a point where she'd have to confess the full truth, but they weren't there yet. From what the game shows, it's unclear whether they would ever have gotten there had fate not intervened.

We can debate when Kaija should have revealed her secrets, but his parents are the ones I am particularly angry at. Its utter bullshit they have kept everything from him and allowed Kaija to date and move in with the MC especially knowing she didn't love him. Even on the love path, she may have fallen in love with him but she wasn't when the relationship started. How they could not tell the MC disgusts me. I'm hoping Coelag will give the MC the opportunity to rip them a new one.

IMHO, the only truth Kaija absolutely owed the MC at the start of the game was to be honest about her feelings for him. Unfortunately, her honesty on that crucial matter is retroactively governed by our choices, which makes it very complicated to assess her blame in a consistent manner.

I agree she should have been honest about her feelings, but it has greater implications no matter which path you take. Its a relationship built on deception and not on honesty. There is no way the MC should continue any sort of relationship with her. He could never trust her again no matter what her feelings are. Without honesty and trust the relationship is dust.

 

[Old Grumpy Wolf]

What tyranny? They're a hidden society that seems to specialize in organizational paralysis. It's unclear they could dominate the local coffee shop even if the MC's father was around to break ties.

The Templars are just like the Brotherhood of Steel. They horde knowledge and claim to protect and all they do is try and force control. Then add in their xenophobia and that makes them tyrannical. I'm not sayin the Elves are any better.

 

[ename144]

yeah I see that however unless i'm miss remembering I think the MC was always fishing for answers about her work. Assuming im not miss remembering I just feel maybe if she threw him a bone and made up some stories about a mission here and there instead of saying it's top secret / it's confidential all the time since it wasn't the truth anyways. It would of played out a little better and he wouldn't be so stressed out and wondering what is she hiding. Cause I think the MC was a bit skeptical about her job cause of how secretive she was , and feeling stressed out over it.

I think fabricating stories to placate the MC's curiosity would be even worse. That's the point, at least to me, where Kaija would go from being as honest as she can to manipulating the MC to make her own life easier. If the MC needs answers she can't give, well, he can break up with her. As long as he's willing to accept her secrets, she's done her part. YMMV, of course.

If you have moved in with the someone then that is the time to start revealing secrets. Your partner should know before the altar. Its not fair to your partner or yourself to go in to a marriage with secrets so they need to come out before the wedding.

Moving in with someone would normally be a reasonable milestone, but I'm a little skeptical in this case. Kaija moves out of the MC's apartment so quickly and with so little fanfare I have to wonder how much stock they put into cohabitation. Given their history, my guess is they started living together as platonic roommates before they became lovers - which again muddies the waters about exactly how much of a commitment they were making to each other.

We can debate when Kaija should have revealed her secrets, but his parents are the ones I am particularly angry at. Its utter bullshit they have kept everything from him and allowed Kaija to date and move in with the MC especially knowing she didn't love him. Even on the love path, she may have fallen in love with him but she wasn't when the relationship started. How they could not tell the MC disgusts me. I'm hoping Coelag will give the MC the opportunity to rip them a new one.

No argument there. I might be willing to cut the parents a tiny bit of slack if it turns out that, say, mere knowledge of the supernatural makes a person potentially more vulnerable to it. That would at least partially explain their insistence on keeping their kids in the dark about the Templars. But there's no excuse for the idiotic notion of letting Kaija be the MC's covert bodyguard once it was clear they had deeper feelings for each other.

AVNs are hardly strangers to bad parents, but these two are something else.

I agree she should have been honest about her feelings, but it has greater implications no matter which path you take. Its a relationship built on deception and not on honesty. There is no way the MC should continue any sort of relationship with her. He could never trust her again no matter what her feelings are. Without honesty and trust the relationship is dust.

To my mind, there's a difference between a relationship rooted in deception and a relationship that emerged in the midst of a deception. It's a small difference I'll grant you, but it's an important one to me. Trampling over that distinction is a big part of why I dislike making the nature of Kaija's relationship depend on nondiegetic factors.

The Templars are just like the Brotherhood of Steel. They horde knowledge and claim to protect and all they do is try and force control. Then add in their xenophobia and that makes them tyrannical. I'm not sayin the Elves are any better.

But... they aren't trying to force control. They're just sitting around minding whatever passes for their own business. However greedy and xenophobic they may be, the one thing they don't seem to be capable of is projecting their will onto pretty much anyone.

 

[Old Grumpy Wolf]

But... they aren't trying to force control. They're just sitting around minding whatever passes for their own business. However greedy and xenophobic they may be, the one thing they don't seem to be capable of is projecting their will onto pretty much anyone.

We just see it differently. I can't convince you and you can't convince me and that's ok.

 

[Dessolos]

I think fabricating stories to placate the MC's curiosity would be even worse. That's the point, at least to me, where Kaija would go from being as honest as she can to manipulating the MC to make her own life easier. If the MC needs answers she can't give, well, he can break up with her. As long as he's willing to accept her secrets, she's done her part. YMMV, of course.

Yeah I can see how my take is kind of worse. I wasnt even sure myself when I wrote it at the time tho it seems like the best solution if she has to lie just so he doesn't worry about her work so much. But yeah it's ultimately digging your self a bigger hole.

 

[Old Grumpy Wolf]

Yeah I can see how my take is kind of worse. I wasnt even sure myself when I wrote it at the time tho it seems like the best solution if she has to lie just so he doesn't worry about her work so much. But yeah it's ultimately digging your self a bigger hole.

I'm one of those guys that will not put up with it. Lie to me and/or keep secrets from me and claim you love me, I'm not a doormat and there's the door. I'm not havin it. I'm also fully onboard with a woman kickin a man to the curb for the same shit.

 

[Dessolos]

I'm one of those guys that will not put up with it. Lie to me and/or keep secrets from me and claim you love me, I'm not a doormat and there's the door. I'm not havin it. I'm also fully onboard with a woman kickin a man to the curb for the same shit.

yeah for me context matters more than the lie it's self. But I think you know that from how often I mention my personality in various different threads. For me the context is acceptable in this game for my personality to forgive and trust.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

I'm one of those guys that will not put up with it. Lie to me and/or keep secrets from me and claim you love me, I'm not a doormat and there's the door. I'm not havin it. I'm also fully onboard with a woman kickin a man to the curb for the same shit.

I wish I had started out like that. I would have had a much better life relationship wise. I took two decades to learn once you allow them to disrespect you, there will be trouble ahead. Married an awesome woman who thinks the same. Happily married for 20 years.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

yeah for me context matters more than the lie it's self. But I think you know that from how often I mention my personality in various different threads. For me the context is acceptable in this game for my personality to forgive and trust.

I use to think like that, I had to learn the hard way. I hope for you don't have to learn that the hard way and I mean that sincerely.

 

[Old Grumpy Wolf]

I wish I had started out like that. I would have had a much better life relationship wise. I took two decades to learn once you allow them to disrespect you, there will be trouble ahead. Married an awesome woman who thinks the same. Happily married for 20 years.

I've always been like that. But for the longest, I wasn't a rel type guy. So, it never really mattered.

 

[Raziel_8]

The Templars are just like the Brotherhood of Steel. They horde knowledge and claim to protect and all they do is try and force control. Then add in their xenophobia and that makes them tyrannical. I'm not sayin the Elves are any better.

To be fair, the Brotherhood of Steel makes no secret out of what they are, keeper/searcher of knowledge & tech, they aren't proclaiming to be the protectors of mankind. They even tell you straight out things like 'everyone knows how to make a human, a plasma rifel on the other hand...' so i'd say you should know where their priorities lie.

At least you have to give this guys that they know how to make an entrance and they bring some nukes, just in case...their reaction to ''we have your grandmaster and we order you to dissband'' would certainly be way more entertaining

Not sure if xenophobe is true for the templars.
They clearly seem to hate the elves (which is reciprocated by them), but i'd say the source of the hate is likely something the templars did.
They also hate the humans in neverwhere, which they pretty much see as criminal garbage, with no morals all thogether. Which from what we heard and saw is probably true to some extent, even the guy we can choose to help pretty much deserved what is coming for him imo.
There are a lot of other worlds and races out there, so they could have good relations with some of them, maybe, possible, theoretical...yeah, i don't believe that either

What irks me more about this templar filth is, one of their leaders straight out tries to rob you. The son of the current grandmaster, which just has done their job and got the 'out of jail card' for their leader... while the other leaders + Kaija are watching how that plays out...speaking about moral high ground or gratitude

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

I don't think you're entitled to someone's secrets just because you're dating them, especially not secrets that could literally get people killed. As ThorinKing said, the ring is symbolic because marriage is generally considered the most significant commitment you can make to another person; that's the point at which all your cards should be on the table (even if a few of them have to be kept face down for security purposes).

Kaija and the MC weren't even officially dating, so I don't find it surprising she didn't spill the beans on the hidden world to the MC. That's a life-changing revelation if ever there was one. If their relationship had continued to deepen then I agree there would come a point where she'd have to confess the full truth, but they weren't there yet. From what the game shows, it's unclear whether they would ever have gotten there had fate not intervened.

I am not sure I can agree with you. First of all, Kaija was hiding 2 big secrets directly effects MC. First one being she was hiding why she was together with MC. She was there to protect him, this is a fact for all of the paths. Whether she developed feeling afterwards is different topic. Secondly, Kaija and her whole family was hiding an entire society from him. A soceity which inherently dangerous and can put MC's life in danger at any minute.
So you may not entitled to someone's secrets just because you're dating them but you are entitled all the secrets that directly effects you and your well-being. I am not holding MC's parents in another light also, they had to tell him, period. MC did not die at the beginning of the game by pure luck because they hide stuff from him.

All-in-all, you are looking at it at the wrong way the secret was not belong to Kaija or MC's parents to begin with, MC have the right to know it, they withheld the truth. What Kaija did was on top of what they did together. She was not truthful with their friendship or relationship. She was deceiving MC just by being near him, the very nature of they are side by side was Kaija's duty. Iirc, there was a line that mentioned when Kaija started to change they were falling apart as friends. If we take it at it's front value, we can safely assume if Kaija was not duty bound to MC they were not going to stay as friends any longer or they will had a chance to start relationship. So the foundation of whatever they have was built on the lie.

IMHO, the only truth Kaija absolutely owed the MC at the start of the game was to be honest about her feelings for him. Unfortunately, her honesty on that crucial matter is retroactively governed by our choices, which makes it very complicated to assess her blame in a consistent manner.

You are right it's hard to assess but there is a way I believe, we can do that by what our choices mean. All the physical intimacy have negative effect on her, while caring her have positive one. So we can safely say, she was not there for what they had in the love path. So in the love path, she loves MC but she is far from being bf-gf with him. Thus, she was lying about that even on the love path.

 

[Dr.TSoni]

She was there to protect him, this is a fact for all of the paths.

To me it seems more like the opposite, they assigned her the task because she was already there
as a best friend. Then based on the route she's caught feelings or betray.

 

[Maviarab]

What tyranny? They're a hidden society that seems to specialize in organizational paralysis. It's unclear they could dominate the local coffee shop even if the MC's father was around to break ties.

This...lol.

The rest of the waffle you wrote...complete horseshit.

If you're at the point of living with someone, the relationship is (supposedly) that serious...keeping secrets will kill your relationship. In fact, without absolute trust...you don't actually have a relationship at all, period. keeping secrets that can and will seriously affect the other persons life...is just shitty, selfish behaviour. There's no debating this, period, whatever path you are on with Kaija.

Those secrets almost got you killed. Oh sorry babe, yeah I've been HIV for 5 years before I met you...sorry, really didn't think it was important to tell you. Really any different? So no, even on the 'love path'...she never loved him. Because you don't treat people you supposedly and apparently love like that. That isn't love, it's self preservation. Like the old cookie, are you sorry you did it...or that you got found out?

Completely inexcusable behaviour.

 

[Old Grumpy Wolf]

This...lol.

The rest of the waffle you wrote...complete horseshit.

If you're t point of living with someone, the relationship is (supposedly) that serious...keeping secrets will kill your relationship. In fact, without absolute trust...you don't actually have a relationship at all, period. keeping secrets that can and will seriously affect the other persons life...is just shitty, selfish behaviour. There's no debating this, period, whatever path you are on with Kaija.

Those secrets almost got you killed. Oh sorry babe, yeah I've been HIV for 5 years before I met you...sorry, really didn't think it was important to tell you. Really any different? So no, even on the 'love path'...she never loved him. Because you don't treat people you supposedly and apparently love like that. That isn't love, it's self preservation. Like the old cookie, are you sorry you did it...or that you got found out?

Completely inexcusable behaviour.

Ya know, I was about to go on a tangent about shit that doesn't really matter about what some think, don't think, should think, about how asleep they are even though their eyes are open. But why? We can discuss shit till we're blue in the face and none of it matters. In the end its just:

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

Those secrets almost got you killed.

That is a point often missed and hasn't been discussed much. The consequences of his parents decision to leave him in the dark nearly cost him his life. So much for secrecy protecting him.

He definitely needs some Elea loving.

 

[Maviarab]

That is a point often missed and hasn't been discussed much. The consequences of his parents decision to leave him in the dark nearly cost him his life. So much for secrecy protecting him.

He definitely needs some Elea loving.

Exactly this shit. Kaija too! Not like already married kinda secret...or used to be a porn star and co-worker says he saw her in a film kinda secret...

Almost...fucking,...killed people! Jesus fuck me...and she was part of that. I'll say it now, had it been our sister they went after instead of us....our good ole parents would start wondering if I was adopted because they sure be seeing a whole other (very unleasant) side of me they never knew existed lol.

In fact at this point...being stuck with the story with have from Ceo...I'd even have been happy with a short game over screen, you leave with your sister and live happily after going no contact from them all. The end. I'd have taken that lol (then I'd have loaded my save haha).

I really do hope we (MC and Sis) have a 'distance ourselves from the lot of em' route and are not forced into being all buddy buddy with everyone.

 

[Raziel_8]

That is a point often missed and hasn't been discussed much. The consequences of his parents decision to leave him in the dark nearly cost him his life. So much for secrecy protecting him.

He definitely needs some Elea loving.

Well parents and Kaija, just following orders is no excuse.
Not that they are any better protecting him after the secret is out...Kaija doing a piss poor job as his protector on top of it, like ready to dump him somewhere in neverwhere so she can rush in some fight and that he survied the succubus was pure luck...

I'd rather have some Fiona loving, thought the end goal is Medb.

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

Almost...fucking,...killed people! Jesus fuck me...and she was part of that. I'll say it now, had it been our sister they went after instead of us....our good ole parents would start wondering if I was adopted because they sure be seeing a whole other (very unleasant) side of me they never knew existed lol.

Since you mentioned the sister I wanna derail a little bit about her. I am almost certain she has someone in her life like Kaija in MC's life, does not have to be her lover maybe a friend, roommate etc. she definitely has one. Linnae knowing everything about her before you do kinda indicates that. So we may expect a little drama over that front too.