VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.5.0.4p] [Ceolag]

[Maviarab]

Since you mentioned the sister I wanna derail a little bit about her. I am almost certain she has someone in her life like Kaija in MC's life, does not have to be her lover maybe a friend, roommate etc. she definitely has one. Linnae knowing everything about her before you do kinda indicates that. So we may expect a little drama over that front too.

Would not surprise me in the least and makes logical sense from a story perspective.

 

[Old Grumpy Wolf]

Since you mentioned the sister I wanna derail a little bit about her. I am almost certain she has someone in her life like Kaija in MC's life, does not have to be her lover maybe a friend, roommate etc. she definitely has one. Linnae knowing everything about her before you do kinda indicates that. So we may expect a little drama over that front too.

Would not surprise me in the least and makes logical sense from a story perspective.

~sigh~ I'm just so tired of fuckin drama.

 

[RoadWulf]

Finished Chapter 1.

Dear Game Developers:
If you have no interest in incest kinks, stop making hot sisters.

Thank you.

 

[e6mill]

Finished Chapter 1.

Dear Game Developers:
If you have no interest in incest kinks, stop making hot sisters.

Thank you.

It's a nice change of pace for those of us with fugly sisters IRL.

 

[Maviarab]

Finished Chapter 1.

Dear Game Developers:
If you have no interest in incest kinks, stop making hot sisters.

Thank you.

Sounds very much like a you problem. Lemme guess...you have a hot sister in rl? Shame...

 

[Old Grumpy Wolf]

Sounds very much like a you problem. Lemme guess...you have a hot sister in rl? Shame...

I'm not afraid to say that my sister is hot. But she's my sister. Not sure when noticin how attractive a person is, whether related or not went out of fashion, but it is what it is.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

Since you mentioned the sister I wanna derail a little bit about her. I am almost certain she has someone in her life like Kaija in MC's life, does not have to be her lover maybe a friend, roommate etc. she definitely has one. Linnae knowing everything about her before you do kinda indicates that. So we may expect a little drama over that front too.

No doubt the sister would realise and sniff out who it is at Templar HQ. Since MC will be off with the elves I would expect that to happen off screen and at most the sister would mention it to the MC afterwards, so we would not necessarily find out about it. Or Coelag might make surprise me and make it a thing

 

[ename144]

All-in-all, you are looking at it at the wrong way the secret was not belong to Kaija or MC's parents to begin with, MC have the right to know it, they withheld the truth. What Kaija did was on top of what they did together. She was not truthful with their friendship or relationship. She was deceiving MC just by being near him, the very nature of they are side by side was Kaija's duty. Iirc, there was a line that mentioned when Kaija started to change they were falling apart as friends. If we take it at it's front value, we can safely assume if Kaija was not duty bound to MC they were not going to stay as friends any longer or they will had a chance to start relationship. So the foundation of whatever they have was built on the lie.

This is the part I debate. Does the MC have a right to know? Obviously he wants to know, and being the Grand Master's son demonstrably puts him in danger that he's poorly equipped to handle thanks to his ignorance. But on the flip side, operational security is a real thing; we've seen how hard it is for the MC to sit idly by. I wouldn't blame Kaija or anyone else for thinking he'd say or do something that could compromise Kaija's cover if he knew the truth.

Moreover, the MC is hardly the only person ignorant of Neverwhere et al. It's a global masquerade, and from everything we've seen the Templars are not the ones enforcing it. Given that, I can't judge whether the MC "deserves" to know the truth without knowing who is ultimately behind the secrecy and why they maintain it. The ends don't inherently *justify* the means , but they do count for something. If there are legitimate downsides to knowing the truth, that's very different than if hiding the truth makes it easier to pull the wool over peoples' eyes.

And either way, most of the fault here would fall on the Templars not Kaija: she was a child when she was ordered to start lying the MC, the Templars (and the MC's parents) were not.

You are right it's hard to assess but there is a way I believe, we can do that by what our choices mean. All the physical intimacy have negative effect on her, while caring her have positive one. So we can safely say, she was not there for what they had in the love path. So in the love path, she loves MC but she is far from being bf-gf with him. Thus, she was lying about that even on the love path.

That's a fair read, but it does contradict Kaija's story that she refused to enter into a physical relationship with the MC when ordered and only did so when it happened naturally (on her love path). My take is slightly different. I think that Kaija has begun to feel guilty about physical intimacy fairly recently, precisely because she knows it will ultimately lead to a deeper relationship where she WILL owe the MC some answers. She isn't ready to give those answers yet, so she tries to hold off on deepening the relationship as well.

It's not a great solution by any means, and it's clearly causing friction with the MC. I don't blame anyone who holds it against Kaija. But for myself, I am fairly sympathetic to her because I see her situation as something of a no win scenario where all the options are potentially terrible and so she's avoiding the choice as long as possible. It's a very human thing to do.

Those secrets almost got you killed. Oh sorry babe, yeah I've been HIV for 5 years before I met you...sorry, really didn't think it was important to tell you. Really any different? So no, even on the 'love path'...she never loved him. Because you don't treat people you supposedly and apparently love like that. That isn't love, it's self preservation. Like the old cookie, are you sorry you did it...or that you got found out?

Again, I don't think that's a fair statement because we still have no idea what additional danger the MC would be put in because he knows the truth. Secrets this big aren't kept without considerable motivation. Plus, even if Kaija personally disagrees with the Templars' assessment of the danger, they're the ones with authority over her. If she flat out disobeys her orders, she will soon be in no position to help the MC at all. That's a net negative to the MC's safety even if we completely ignore Kaija's desire to continue being a Templar.

Ya know, I was about to go on a tangent about shit that doesn't really matter about what some think, don't think, should think, about how asleep they are even though their eyes are open. But why? We can discuss shit till we're blue in the face and none of it matters. In the end its just:
View attachment 3382164

Whoa.

 

[Old Grumpy Wolf]

Whoa.

 

[Maviarab]

Does the MC have a right to know?

Yes...you have the fucking right know if your life is in danger because of the actions of your so called GF (and parents in this case). Everybody else in the world isn't a factor, you don't know them. What the Templars do for everyione else is not a concern...what is a direct concern is how it affects you.

If she flat out disobeys her orders, she will soon be in no position to help the MC at all. That's a net negative to the MC's safety even if we completely ignore Kaija's desire to continue being a Templar.

So she can leave the Templars. She can still protect him...she won't suddenly become incapable.

Completely ignoring her desire isn't an option though is it so it's off the table as an argument.

 

[Old Grumpy Wolf]

Yes...you have the fucking right know if your life is in danger because of the actions of your so called GF (and parents in this case). Everybody else in the world isn't a factor, you don't know them. What the Templars do for everyione else is not a concern...what is a direct concern is how it affects you.

So she can leave the Templars. She can still protect him...she won't suddenly become incapable.

Completely ignoring her desire isn't an option though is it so it's off the table as an argument.

I agree with this except for the last part. When and IF Ceolag gives us the option to end the Templars, her desire to stay a Templar will be her own downfall.

 

[Canto Forte]

That was her only path in life, she had to take it and preserve her way of life when they offered it to her. She always associated doing the job to being able to be close to MC.
Can or would MC offer himself or himself and his childhood friend a life for themselves outside of that whole world? So far, this game shows us he and her are too dependant on those others to function. Where would their agency to flee or start over or come into their own come from?

the Templars, her desire to stay a Templar

By the power of you breaking the 4th wall and kidnapping them away?

 

[ename144]

Yes...you have the fucking right know if your life is in danger because of the actions of your so called GF (and parents in this case). Everybody else in the world isn't a factor, you don't know them. What the Templars do for everyione else is not a concern...what is a direct concern is how it affects you.

Assumes facts not in evidence. The MC's life isn't in danger because of Kaija's secret, it's in danger either because his father is the Grand Master of the Templars or because he's some sort of Chosen One(tm). Knowing about the secret world might make the MC better prepared for the threat, but it won't obviate the threat in and of itself. And if telling the MC about the secret world removes or lessens some of the protections he already has, that might not be doing him any favors.

I don't think there's a cut and dry answer here.

So she can leave the Templars. She can still protect him...she won't suddenly become incapable.

Agree to disagree. The one thing the Templars do seem to have going for them is resources. If Kaija is kicked out, she loses access to those resources, which makes a big difference in how much help she can realistically provide - especially if the MC's parents side with the Templars against her.

And before you say fuck the Templars yet again, I point out that it's only because Kaija was still with the Templars that she was able to save the MC in Chapter 1 on her love path. If she'd defied their orders earlier, she wouldn't have had her pocket-rocket or her arsenal when the crisis hit. She might not have even known about it if the MC's parents had persuaded him not to hang around with her anymore.

Completely ignoring her desire isn't an option though is it so it's off the table as an argument.

Okay, but I think it's an argument in my favor. Who wants to give up their life's dream if they don't have to? For better or worse, Kaija wants to be a Templar. She believes in their cause, even if their current leadership is less than ideal. If the MC expects his girlfriend to give all that up at the drop of a hat - especially if it could wind up making his own situation worse - well, he's not exactly LI material himself. IMHO.

Again, I don't blame anyone for deciding to break up Kaija once the truth comes out, I just don't think it's the one-sided slam dunk you're making it out to be.

 

[Old Grumpy Wolf]

that was her only path in life, she had to take it and preserve her way of life when they offered it to her. She always associated doing the job to being able to be close to MC.
Can or would MC offer himself or himself and his childhood friend a life for themselves outside that whole world? Sol far, this game shows is he and her are too dependant on those others to function. Where would their agency come from?

By the power of you breaking the 4th wall and kidnapping them away?

Now...

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

This is the part I debate. Does the MC have a right to know? Obviously he wants to know, and being the Grand Master's son demonstrably puts him in danger that he's poorly equipped to handle thanks to his ignorance. But on the flip side, operational security is a real thing; we've seen how hard it is for the MC to sit idly by. I wouldn't blame Kaija or anyone else for thinking he'd say or do something that could compromise Kaija's cover if he knew the truth.

Moreover, the MC is hardly the only person ignorant of Neverwhere et al. It's a global masquerade, and from everything we've seen the Templars are not the ones enforcing it. Given that, I can't judge whether the MC "deserves" to know the truth without knowing who is ultimately behind the secrecy and why they maintain it. The ends don't inherently *justify* the means , but they do count for something. If there are legitimate downsides to knowing the truth, that's very different than if hiding the truth makes it easier to pull the wool over peoples' eyes.

And either way, most of the fault here would fall on the Templars not Kaija: she was a child when she was ordered to start lying the MC, the Templars (and the MC's parents) were not.

Okay, I would outright tell you what think about this then, fuck their operation and fuck their operation security. One party is MC's parents, they could not keep secure MC by not telling him. So, as you said if not MC's protection but their operational security was the reason they withheld the information then that means they are ready to sacrifice MC to their goal. If so, if they kept MC dark to protect Templars then I wish agonising death to them and collapse to their organisation. Same goes for Kaija.

I can try to understand that they tried to keep MC and Jessica safe by not involving them into their secrets but if they did it to their organisation's security in their mind, then fuck'em all. Keeping them secure has a noble goal behind, what they did was terrible and they chose the wrong path. They decided in MC's and Jessica's stand and I can't forgive such a thing but if it's other way around I will actively work for their demise whatever they hold more dear to them than me.

Doing these terrible things to others does not soften it up on the contrary it will show they are evil on organisational level.

That's a fair read, but it does contradict Kaija's story that she refused to enter into a physical relationship with the MC when ordered and only did so when it happened naturally (on her love path). My take is slightly different. I think that Kaija has begun to feel guilty about physical intimacy fairly recently, precisely because she knows it will ultimately lead to a deeper relationship where she WILL owe the MC some answers. She isn't ready to give those answers yet, so she tries to hold off on deepening the relationship as well.

It's not a great solution by any means, and it's clearly causing friction with the MC. I don't blame anyone who holds it against Kaija. But for myself, I am fairly sympathetic to her because I see her situation as something of a no win scenario where all the options are potentially terrible and so she's avoiding the choice as long as possible. It's a very human thing to do.

And you can see your take is not entirely correct by choosing intimate options. She was absolutely okay to fuck the shit out MC, even she initiated and had no reason to worry that the intimacy will deepen anything towards MC.

Also, what you are saying indicates she was going to take some actions if their relationship deepened before events unravelled itself. As she stated she neither had a plan nor any will to do so. If nothing happened and let say they got married, would you think she would say anything to MC. You can't say yes because it will contradict with what she said. At the pier, she said she had no plan whatsoever for whatever the situation they were in and always thought it's a problem for another day. Then when confronted each other she said, it was an direct order and I don't break orders. So if they were going to marry and Templars said you can marry but can't say jackshit about us then she'd keep the status quo.

It's not a great solution by any means, and it's clearly causing friction with the MC. I don't blame anyone who holds it against Kaija. But for myself, I am fairly sympathetic to her because I see her situation as something of a no win scenario where all the options are potentially terrible and so she's avoiding the choice as long as possible. It's a very human thing to do.

You can feel feel sympathetic to her but trying to whitewash her actions does not look good I must say. You are right on something though, there was no winning in her situation but just because she can't get what she wants that does not mean she had any right to deceive MC giving that to her. That's what fraudsters do and it's not human thing to do, that's just evil.
She had two choices at her hand. Either she was going to choose her cult and break up with MC then tell the cult leaders find someone to protect MC, which btw she was terrible at or choose MC and quit her cult or force them to let her tell about them or tell it to MC without asking permission and hope MC would forgive her. Just because she can't get both, does not make deceiving one side, btw she choose to deceive MC not Templars, okay or human thing to do.

 

[Canto Forte]

Did you tell any of the Presidents of the U S of A to quit their job?
Their job where they authorised and executed carpet bombings and drone assassinations all over the globe with no oversight or reason other than ”top secret proof” nobody ever saw or asked for? Any drama surrounding any and all people who lost precious family members in those strikes WOULD KILL those presidents FAmILies 1000000 TIMES OVER as the TORA -= TIt for TAT demands, DEAR GAMER? Did you? Of course not!

She had two choices at her hand. Either she was going to choose her cult and break up with MC then tell the cult leaders find someone to protect MC, which btw she was terrible at or choose MC and quit her cult or force them to let her tell about them or tell it to MC without asking permission and hope MC would forgive her.

You go tell Putin to QUIT HIS WARMONGER JOB because for sure millions of people are angry at his family members for his actions. Are you gonna?

she'd have been down the road

With no way of knowing about him or his troubles - he was in a car of his family, she has no business there. She would have been in her work place or anywhere around the city, with no bike, no guns, no knowledge of the necessary force or tactics to save him.

 

[Maviarab]

And before you say fuck the Templars yet again, I point out that it's only because Kaija was still with the Templars that she was able to save the MC in Chapter 1 on her love path. If she'd defied their orders earlier, she wouldn't have had her pocket-rocket or her arsenal when the crisis hit. She might not have even known about it if the MC's parents had persuaded him not to hang around with her anymore.

If she wasn't part of the Templars she'd have been down the road probably and not in another dimension...therefore wouldn't need her pocket rocket...

Jus' sayin'...

 

[Quetzzz]

btw she choose to deceive MC not Templars, okay or human thing to do.

For me, that's the crux of it. And his parents are even worse. Their secrets made the MC (and his sister) the out-group, a pawn.
If he was so important to require a bodyguard (who was always away on missions), then he should've been told about his situation. Hell, even if his dad didn't straight-up tell him about the Templars, they could've taught him about the supernatural. It's such a weird choice to rely on Kaija to keep him safe, and then constantly send her off on missions. Did they really think that our dimension was void of supernatural creatures that the MC could accidentally run in to? Then why did he need a bodyguard in the first place?

From this conversation, I get the impression that Kaija's behavior changes depending on your points in the early game? If you kiss her in the morning, she breaks orders and comes to you, if you don't, she gets ordered to save you?
If that's the case, that's even more damning. It would mean that her love is conditional.
(I haven't played through all paths, so I could be wrong.)

 

[xapican]

I get the impression that Kaija's behavior changes depending on your points in the early game? If you kiss her in the morning, she breaks orders and comes to you, if you don't, she gets ordered to save you?
If that's the case, that's even more damning. It would mean that her love is conditional.
(I haven't played through all paths, so I could be wrong.)

No, not exactly, like that, depending on how many relship points you have Kaijas answers and behaviour changes, she breaks her mission, and comes to your aid, not shure about the order part though but iirc she was not specially orderd to MC rescue.
what I realize is that, As the Father was the Grandmaster, Kaija was the Bodyguard, but she was ordered apart as the Father was taken.
which hints to some corrupt higher ranks.

 

[Maviarab]

f he was so important to require a bodyguard (who was always away on missions), then he should've been told about his situation. Hell, even if his dad didn't straight-up tell him about the Templars, they could've taught him about the supernatural. It's such a weird choice to rely on Kaija to keep him safe, and then constantly send her off on missions. Did they really think that our dimension was void of supernatural creatures that the MC could accidentally run in to? Then why did he need a bodyguard in the first place?