VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.5.0.4p] [Ceolag]

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

On the other hand, how much can he change without changing WHO Elves are talking with?
Even best case scenario: MC doesn't get involved with Cuntemplars, Elves like him, majority of humans entering Neverwhere (and controlling who goes there) are Templars.
And what are they like? Controlling, deceptive, lying bastards.

As much as it pains me, MC might be forced to change the order from inside to ensure stuff doesn't get even worse.
The mere thought of working with the order and Kaija makes me sick...

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

This is the curious one for me. Do you think we might get some sort of official invite to the Elven kingdom, we perhaps become some sort of ambassador ourselves?

This is why I said about us (imo) not just being to tell everyone to go and screw themselves as, well, there wouldn't be much story left then would there lol. Somehow, even if we don't particulary want to, we're going to be involved in some way in everything that's going on.

I can imagine the next update will be a lot of story exposition and learning facts and some history etc etc.

Medb seems interested in him and so did the Queen. He isn't a Templar and he isn't a product of Neverwhere, so it may be his neutrality that gets him invited to the Elven realm by the Elves or as an ambassador. The elves interest in him would see them jump at the chance to get there sexy little mitts on the MC for a time.

On the other hand, how much can he change without changing WHO Elves are talking with?
Even best case scenario: MC doesn't get involved with Cuntemplars, Elves like him, majority of humans entering Neverwhere (and controlling who goes there) are Templars.
And what are they like? Controlling, deceptive, lying bastards.

As much as it pains me, MC might be forced to change the order from inside to ensure stuff doesn't get even worse.
The mere thought of working with the order and Kaija makes me sick...

I think that is exactly one of the MC's purposes, to bring radical change to a stagnant Templar Order, or that could just be my wishful thinking

 

[Maviarab]

get there sexy little mitts on the MC for a time

No complaints here....I be all like...

Ladies....

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

No complaints here....I be all like...

Ladies....

View attachment 3435777

While Elea is my No1, I confess to being a bit infatuated with Medb. Also, Queen Mab for that matter.

 

[xapican]

While Elea is my No1, I confess to being a bit infatuated with Medb. Also, Queen Mab for that matter.

In short with everything what hadn't climb up a tree when you count 3 .......... .(and when he is done with them, he counts 4 and start shaking trees)

 

[oidex]

I have actually no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Dr.TSoni]

I think that is exactly one of the MC's purposes, to bring radical change to a stagnant Templar Order, or that could just be my wishful thinking

I believe it too

 

[ename144]

IIRC not better relations, just less of a temper compared to Mab, but who doesn't want to shut up Statham...i'm curious of how much of their resentment is actualy against humans (earth), just against the templars, or Neverwhere humans.

The Templars do seem to provoke an extremely strong response in humans; I suppose they might do the same in elves.

As far as them judging humans by those in Neverwhere, however, that does raise an interesting question: how unified are the humans there? We know there are multiple human settlements connected by trains, but it's not clear if those settlements fall under a single banner or if each is effectively its own city-state. I suspect that the more united those settlements are, the more likely the elves are to judge humanity at large by Neverwhere's example.

On the other hand, how much can he change without changing WHO Elves are talking with?
Even best case scenario: MC doesn't get involved with Cuntemplars, Elves like him, majority of humans entering Neverwhere (and controlling who goes there) are Templars.
And what are they like? Controlling, deceptive, lying bastards.

Speaking of a strong response to Templars, this is not consistent with the information we've seen so far. The Templar leadership is clearly disdainful of Neverwhere, so it's unlikely they have much say over who ends up there. Moreover, we know for a fact the MC was able to enter Neverwhere without their knowledge using an unguarded portal only a short distance from Templar HQ.

Kaija also makes clear the Templars need to keep a low profile to avoid drawing the ire of whichever force maintains Neverwhere's secrecy in the real world; that would not be possible if the Templars were also Neverwhere's gatekeepers. Obviously Kaija could be lying or mistaken, but we haven't seen any firsthand evidence to contradict her yet.

Medb seems interested in him and so did the Queen. He isn't a Templar and he isn't a product of Neverwhere, so it may be his neutrality that gets him invited to the Elven realm by the Elves or as an ambassador. The elves interest in him would see them jump at the chance to get there sexy little mitts on the MC for a time.

The MC is the son of the Grand Master of the Templars. I don't think the elves consider him a neutral party. And the Templars certainly consider him their jurisdiction, since AFAICT they unilaterally interpreted the Elves' parley as applying to the MC and invited him to the negotiations all on their own initiative. Even Councilor Statham considers it his duty to die covering the MC's retreat should it come down to that.

Now obviously we know the MC isn't exactly breaking out the pompoms for team Templar, but it may take a little while for both sides to realize that. I'm very curious to see how we wind up hanging out with the Elves.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

The MC is the son of the Grand Master of the Templars. I don't think the elves consider him a neutral party. And the Templars certainly consider him their jurisdiction, since AFAICT they unilaterally interpreted the Elves' parley as applying to the MC and invited him to the negotiations all on their own initiative. Even Councilor Statham considers it his duty to die covering the MC's retreat should it come down to that.

Now obviously we know the MC isn't exactly breaking out the pompoms for team Templar, but it may take a little while for both sides to realize that. I'm very curious to see how we wind up hanging out with the Elves.

You raise some good points. I don't think the Templars and the Elves see the MC the same way. To the Templars the MC is a Templar, he just needs to come around and realise it. Why he is wasn't recruited at a young age like Kaija I don't know. We may be missing a piece of the puzzle there.

The Elves are too interested in him to see him as 'just' a Templar. Initially it may have been curiosity, but the elves interest goes way beyond curiosity. The Queen herself came to the meeting to see the MC personally. The elves aren't going to put a Queen at risk just because she wants to meet another human who may not even become a Templar. Why be interested in a son when they can engage with the actual leadership, who they ignore at the meeting. No, there is more at work here with the Elves than mere curiosity I feel.

 

[xapican]

You raise some good points. I don't think the Templars and the Elves see the MC the same way. To the Templars the MC is a Templar, he just needs to come around and realise it. Why he is wasn't recruited at a young age like Kaija I don't know. We may be missing a piece of the puzzle there.

The Elves are too interested in him to see him as 'just' a Templar. Initially it may have been curiosity, but the elves interest goes way beyond curiosity. The Queen herself came to the meeting to see the MC personally. The elves aren't going to put a Queen at risk just because she wants to meet another human who may not even become a Templar. Why be interested in a son when they can engage with the actual leadership, who they ignore at the meeting. No, there is more at work here with the Elves than mere curiosity I feel.

The queens last sentence after she looked into jess, "so much wasted potential" made me suspicous, what does she mean, and why she says that from a race she disdains?
and there is also, what the father said, lets prepare for a war, but against whom? not shure he meant against the elves, what did he during his inprisionment learn?

 

[ename144]

You raise some good points. I don't think the Templars and the Elves see the MC the same way. To the Templars the MC is a Templar, he just needs to come around and realise it. Why he is wasn't recruited at a young age like Kaija I don't know. We may be missing a piece of the puzzle there.

The Elves are too interested in him to see him as 'just' a Templar. Initially it may have been curiosity, but the elves interest goes way beyond curiosity. The Queen herself came to the meeting to see the MC personally. The elves aren't going to put a Queen at risk just because she wants to meet another human who may not even become a Templar. Why be interested in a son when they can engage with the actual leadership, who they ignore at the meeting. No, there is more at work here with the Elves than mere curiosity I feel.

It seemed to be Mab who took a personal interest in the MC, and that only happened after he killed the Damas and saved Medb. I don't think the elves as a group had much interest in the MC before that, and I doubt they had a vote in whether Mab placed herself at risk (assuming she was at any risk - the Templars clearly didn't think so).

I could certainly be mistaken, but my take is that Mab wanted to know how the hell the MC did what he did and decided to cut out the middlelves as it were. She wasn't looking to gauge the MC's allegiances, she had technical questions and wanted answers. She clearly got an answer that satisfied her, whatever it was. It's possible her gaze also clued her in to the MC's feelings on the Templars, but I don't think that was her original intent.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

The queens last sentence after she looked into jess, "so much wasted potential" made me suspicous, what does she mean, and why she says that from a race she disdains?
and there is also, what the father said, lets prepare for a war, but against whom? not shure he meant against the elves, what did he during his inprisionment learn?

Its an ambiguous statement. Was it meant in wasted potential because the elves would take out the Templars, or lost potential another way? I think the elves have an insider in the Templars and definitely know much more than they are saying. Hopefully the father will open up to his son and we all get some answers.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

It seemed to be Mab who took a personal interest in the MC, and that only happened after he killed the Damas and saved Medb. I don't think the elves as a group had much interest in the MC before that, and I doubt they had a vote in whether Mab placed herself at risk (assuming she was at any risk - the Templars clearly didn't think so).

I could certainly be mistaken, but my take is that Mab wanted to know how the hell the MC did what he did and decided to cut out the middlelves as it were. She wasn't looking to gauge the MC's allegiances, she had technical questions and wanted answers. She clearly got an answer that satisfied her, whatever it was. It's possible her gaze also clued her in to the MC's feelings on the Templars, but I don't think that was her original intent.

I wasn't talking about Mab being just at risk if something went wrong with the Templars meeting. Medb was ambushed and demons nearly got her. Mab could have been ambushed as well when she left Elven territory. There are others players engaged who are clearly more aggressive than the Templars. You are right the Templars are certainly scared of Mab's power, so I have to wonder how the Templars have been able to keep the status quo for so long?

Are you suggesting Mab has some telepathic ability? Interesting. You got me thinking now.
Damn it you guys! I have work to do you know

 

[ename144]

I wasn't talking about Mab being just at risk if something went wrong with the Templars meeting. Medb was ambushed and demons nearly got her. Mab could have been ambushed as well when she left Elven territory. There are others players engaged who are clearly more aggressive than the Templars. You are right the Templars are certainly scared of Mab's power, so I have to wonder how the Templars have been able to keep the status quo for so long?

Are you suggesting Mab has some telepathic ability? Interesting. You got me thinking now.
Damn it you guys! I have work to do you know

It's true Mab might have been ambushed by something more dangerous than off-brand-Statham, but she's not far from her territory, she had guards, and she's clearly a powerhouse. The risk seems minimal, especially from her point of view if we assume she has the ego we'd expect of a highborn elf.

I agree the Templars seem way too weak to maintain a two-sided rivalry with the elves. It's just one more question I'm hoping we can finally get some answers to now that the apparent brains of the outfit are back.

As far as Mab having a telepathic ability, I thought the game flat out told the Queen's Gaze was a kind of telepathy, or at the very least some sort of invasive psychometry. I took it as something akin to a one sided Vulcan Mind Meld, with a side of Detect Magic for good measure.

But I should probably shut up and let you get back to work.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

It's true Mab might have been ambushed by something more dangerous than off-brand-Statham, but she's not far from her territory, she had guards, and she's clearly a powerhouse. The risk seems minimal, especially from her point of view if we assume she has the ego we'd expect of a highborn elf.

I agree the Templars seem way too weak to maintain a two-sided rivalry with the elves. It's just one more question I'm hoping we can finally get some answers to now that the apparent brains of the outfit are back.

As far as Mab having a telepathic ability, I thought the game flat out told the Queen's Gaze was a kind of telepathy, or at the very least some sort of invasive psychometry. I took it as something akin to a one sided Vulcan Mind Meld, with a side of Detect Magic for good measure.

But I should probably shut up and let you get back to work.

Again good points, I just feel Medb should be dead, and therefore that would have the elves spooked and extra cautious so allowing one of the queens to venture out would mean it was something extra important to take the risk. So I think there more to our MC then what we have seen or the MC himself knows.

A Vulcan mind meld meets detect magic spell, fascinating.

Procrastination is my nemesis. Fortunately I had a good morning at least. Neverwhere has taken over my afternoon.

 

[Dr.TSoni]

Why he is wasn't recruited at a young age like Kaija I don't know. We may be missing a piece of the puzzle there.

My two cents, the Grand Master has realized that the Templars have become too cynical in pursuing their mission and hopes that his offspring will bring a more positive and fresh outlook.
Or

 

[oidex]

You are right the Templars are certainly scared of Mab's power, so I have to wonder how the Templars have been able to keep the status quo for so long?

Probably for the same reason vampires are mostly depicted as staying in the shadows.
The Templars are actively working to keep them a secret, and dealing with a couple of humans is easy.
Dealing with 8+ billion who consider you an existential threat and have enough ICBMs to glass an entire planet is a whole other story.

 

[nitkonikic]

My two cents, the Grand Master has realized that the Templars have become too cynical in pursuing their mission and hopes that his offspring will bring a more positive and fresh outlook.
Or
View attachment 3438207

Considering he allowed his son to enter relationship with Kaija, I'm thinking latter.

Speaking of a strong response to Templars, this is not consistent with the information we've seen so far. The Templar leadership is clearly disdainful of Neverwhere, so it's unlikely they have much say over who ends up there. Moreover, we know for a fact the MC was able to enter Neverwhere without their knowledge using an unguarded portal only a short distance from Templar HQ.

Well, MC entered it with their own agent so I refuse to believe it's unguarded.
Kaija's word is worth less than random Elven one, they have yet to prove their untrustworthiness, she's gone above and beyond to prove hers, rest of Templars included.
It was also mentioned they (not Templars here, someone) tries to keep Neverwhere a secret. Very actively. To the "kill that person" level. Which Templars are okay with.

I am guessing above will put Elea in danger, because she's actively researching Neverwhere, and it will put her in someone's crosshair, soon probably.

So not many people get to visit Neverwhere unless they're:
A. Smugglers of a kind
B. Templars
C. Whatever 3rd party exists

Out of 3, I'd say Templars are prevalent, because they're the ones "keeping humanity safe".
So if anyone is in Neverwhere on official business, it's Templars.
And since that's the case, it's a miracle Elves don't kill humans on sight.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

Wow lots of chatter and not about Kaija, I'm impressed guys.

Probably for the same reason vampires are mostly depicted as staying in the shadows.
The Templars are actively working to keep them a secret, and dealing with a couple of humans is easy.
Dealing with 8+ billion who consider you an existential threat and have enough ICBMs to glass an entire planet is a whole other story.

That may explain the last hundred years but before that ... not so much. Although I don't know how they would get ICBMs in to Neverwhere but it is certainly a deterrent to invasion assuming the elves have the numbers and maybe that is it, the Elves having a low birth rate perhaps so have never had the numbers?

 

[Dessolos]

Wow lots of chatter and not about Kaija, I'm impressed guys.

Defenestrator.for.traitor it has come to my attention thanks to Grumpy there is a lack of down with Kaija today