VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.5.0.4p] [Ceolag]

[Yokanzo]

That actually makes me see the whole Templar thing in another light. The whole Kaija situation basically played out like one of those pranks people would play on less popular kids in school. Basically get one of the hot girls they know to invite a dude out to a date only to surprise him and laugh at him while calling him a loser or whatever. Only this time it’s a long con where your childhood friend and the person you love most turned out to have started the entire thing on false pretences. That's some seriously intense emotional trauma.

I think the problem with the game here is we didn’t really know Katja well enough despite the game’s biggest efforts to introduce her to us and clarify the nature of the relationship. I never felt the connection and even thought about her as the gf character you jettison for the other love interests.
Kaija is new (to us) so it makes the history between the characters easy to forgive and forget because we didn’t live it. The only way anyone would understand is if they experienced lies and betrayal in their own personal lives. Otherwise the game would have to spend an hour on all the flashbacks for how the protagonist and Kaija came to be.

I mean for me it seems really cool to have a badass girlfriend who is loyal to you unconditionally and chooses you over her duty which she prizes more than anything else. The Templar organization also seems really cool as a means to protect humanity from whatever worse shit is out there besides the elves.
It’s just too bad the character’s personal relationship with them is so fucked.

In that sense he has more in common with Fiona than first apparent. Would be interesting to find out if she’s an elf or something.

 

[Malicre]

I have to disagree with both of you there.
Their lies ARE horrendous.

And I am not talking about not telling MC about templars, that part, believe it or not, I am fine with.
Secret organisation and trying to keep their son out of it? Sure, it sucks, but that part I can understand, and heck, even support to a point (which was crossed, but different topic) .

I am bitter as fuck about their involvement with whole Kaija matter. That alone is burned bridges worthy to me.
Their son was in fake relationship with member of their order, a non-love relationship, and they not only didn't stop it, but were a-ok with it.
It was arranged marriage, except they sold their son without telling him.

If they only tried telling Kaija (non-love paths) to drop it, to stop it, because it will eventually break theirs sons heart, I could forgive. Not forget, breach is there, but it can be mended with enough time (meaning years).
But they didn't. They chose Templars, they chose their job, they chose Kaija.
Their son was something that needed to be handled, and offloading him to Kaija was easiest option so they let it be.

That is insane.
I've said it over and over and will say it again: This would fuck MCs love life for years, potentially for life, knowing there is organization willing to put their members in his bed to keep an eye on him.
Just think about it, any single girl he meets from that point on could be another templar on a mission.
I doubt Kaija was first female given that order. Why not try again with another girl?

I am perfectly fine, no, not just fine, happy, if burning bridges in this episode means no more family in the future.
They were worse than shit parents and MC will only be able to start breathing and living a proper life once they are out of the picture.
Would he still look over his shoulder from time to time, worried there is Templar spy somewhere around? Yes. But would it be preferable to this family? Yes again.

Family rant over and my apologies for it

Minor edit: That's also what makes Finnabair such a perfect LI. There were no lies there, everything that happened happened because it was honest.
Honest hatred, honest conversations, honest feelings. It was wholesome and something MC genuinely needed.

And while all of this was happening Kaija still didn't say shit. I can actually forgive the parents more then her, at least their reasoning is simple, to keep their kids safe where as Kaija's lie was made out of loyalty to the templars and your family, not you and if the situation didn't arise she would still be lying to you.

She's literally on my shit list, ranks right down there with Steph from LoF who's another character who thought she was doing the right thing for the wrong reason.

 

[PaxHadrian17]

Well, I think there is no siding with Templars or Alfars, more to unite them against the 3rd party, both admited that they are to weak for an open war.
Also another variable is Fiona or Elea, I doubt that both are alone and with no backup, Elea manages a lot of Information about mystical things, Fiona is somehow also interwined with all this, for now there are to many unkown variables to see where this is going.
No I didn't like the lie neither of Kaija nor from the Parents, but is it really that horrendous ? being understanding doesn't mean being naive or guilible.

The Kaija choice creates stark route contrasts.

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Spoiler: High Kaija Love Points

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Spoiler: Very low Kaija love points

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______________________________________

I have to give major props to Ceo for creating such dramatically different outcomes based on those choices.

I'm curious to see what happens in the future.

Do the parents have the governing board cover for the MC with his job on both paths or, for those who burned their bridges, does the MC get in hot water and almost lose his job because the parents start to show him what burning the bridges really looks like?

Does the way Finnabair dies get influenced by the MC's family choices - a bitter father who lost control of his only son strikes out at those he chooses to blame versus Finnabair - a sad casualty of a needless skirmish?

How will the Grandmaster of the Templars respond if the Templars are actually responsible for Finnabair's death - especially if she was murdered under a flag of parley - for example?

What will Fiona's response be to the two most divergent family choices the MC can make and what new details will she share in turn?

I can see significant replayability in the next chapter as I try the different paths, not just of the family choices but of the primary LI choices as well.

It is going to be a wild ride, and each new chapter will be Very hard to wait for!

Cheers!!

 

[Raziel_8]

No one likes to being lied about important things in your life and in family life specially but dunno if is because my age, near 50 yo, I understand the point of view from the Parents. 30 years ago I wouldn't be so much understanding but life teaches you that sometimes you have to lie to protect your loved ones even if the result is getting a bit of hate/rage from them, it is a small price to pay if means getting them safe, nothing is ever all black and white, there is always plenty of gray areas in life.

Except their lies didn't protect them from any danger, it just let them unprepared. This wasn't about letting them join the templars and the battles, but simply about the truth.
The danger for the MC/Jess was always there, simply because the parents are both templars, as well as Kaija and the father the head honcho of them, as well as them having powerful enemies.

As for their reasons, i just can't take them seriusly.
So Linnea had a break with her family because they couldn't life with her dangerous line of work and she choose the templars - it's not always better to tell the truth...i mean, seriously
Not the right time, ever, sister younger, important moments, you got a job (years ago)...
-i mean, by that point they just blantly search for every excuse possible

 

[nitkonikic]

What will Fiona's response be to the two most divergent family choices the MC can make and what new details will she share in turn?

Cheers!!

Funnily enough, I see Fiona as potentially being most understanding of burned bridges.
Her own history with her family could make her understand the need to move on from lies, betrayal and emotional damage MC experienced from his parents.

Elea strikes me as someone that would absolutely be forgiving, Medb values family highly (seen through adopted brother discussion, something she kept valuing for hundreds of years) and Kaija is a templar, so she'll follow whatever was the order.

 

[Malicre]

#RelationshipAdvice

 

[Dr.TSoni]

-i mean, by that point they just blantly search for every excuse possible

I believe they don't want this life for their children, so any excuse is a good one to procrastinate

 

[Raziel_8]

I believe they don't want this life for their children, so any excuse is a good one to procrastinate

On that i agree.

 

[Dessolos]

And while all of this was happening Kaija still didn't say shit. I can actually forgive the parents more then her, at least their reasoning is simple, to keep their kids safe where as Kaija's lie was made out of loyalty to the templars and your family, not you and if the situation didn't arise she would still be lying to you.

She's literally on my shit list, ranks right down there with Steph from LoF who's another character who thought she was doing the right thing for the wrong reason.

See I blame the parents more than Kaija now this might be just me and I don't have any evidence but a gut feeling. I honestly kind of got the impression Kaija and other templars that grew up and trained with them from a young age were most likely brainwashed to some extent , almost like they were a cult. Otherwise it's hard for me to understand the loyalty someone like Kaija would have to the templars. Plus makes it easier for me to understand why she would keep the lies up even on the love path tho tbh I don't have a problem with her lies cause with the context I'm able to understand and forgive that easily. However that is just me, im too forgiving and understanding ( which is probably the reason I had a hard time staying mad at Steph as well haha ).

With all that being said I do hope on the love path we are able to sway her loyalty away from the templars as it will make it that much better.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

See I blame the parents more than Kaija now this might be just me and I don't have any evidence but a gut feeling. I honestly kind of got the impression Kaija and other templars that grew up and trained with them from a young age were most likely brainwashed to some extent , almost like they were a cult. Otherwise it's hard for me to understand the loyalty someone like Kaija would have to the templars. Plus makes it easier for me to understand why she would keep the lies up even on the love path tho tbh I don't have a problem with her lies cause with the context I'm able to understand and forgive that easily. However that is just me, im too forgiving and understanding ( which is probably the reason I had a hard time staying mad at Steph as well haha ).

With all that being said I do hope on the love path we are able to sway her loyalty away from the templars as it will make it that much better.

I don't hate Kaija overall but I certainly don't like her. It depends on the path as to what happened, and how she felt about it. Since I'm playing her love path as well, I certain dislike her as an LI on that path and loathe what she does on the other paths. I certainly don't trust her on any path. In saying that I do see good traits in her, like loyalty and trustworthiness, just not towards the MC, it is all towards the Templars. She is conflicted on the Kaija path but for now she is still in the Templar camp. If it was a RL situation I certain would never trust her again on any path. I'd be bye bye and on my way, even on the Kaija path.

 

[duckydoodoo]

Minor edit: That's also what makes Finnabair such a perfect LI. There were no lies there, everything that happened happened because it was honest.
Honest hatred, honest conversations, honest feelings. It was wholesome and something MC genuinely needed.

mostly agree with the rest of what you went off on, and personally my rants are way longer and three times more confusing cause I never miss running off on tangents(see this one here, has nothing to do with my original reason for quoting you, ive already had a tangent and yet to rant)

as for Finn, that was MC's truest and most sincere relationship in life outside his sister(he needs to do better by her, flashbacks show he pretty much sucked as a big bro). and now look what happened

im still amazed that no one points out how the parents are psychopaths, they didnt want thier kids mixed up in templar shit, but MC's childhood bestie with the crap home life, well she couldnt be a better pick for their cult unless she was a homeless orphan living on the streets. the brain damage to claim they were helping her, instead of you know taking her into their home and raising her like their own. which is the normal sane thing to do. they brainwashed her so good, she actually thinks MC parents gave her a better life but drowing her hands and soul in blood as a child soldier. I mean, from what they did to his bestie alone, thats cause to punch daddy in the throat and bitch slap mom.

 

[Dessolos]

I don't hate Kaija overall but I certainly don't like her. It depends on the path as to what happened, and how she felt about it. Since I'm playing her love path as well, I certain dislike her as an LI on that path and loathe what she does on the other paths. I certainly don't trust her on any path. In saying that I do see good traits in her, like loyalty and trustworthiness, just not towards the MC, it is all towards the Templars. She is conflicted on the Kaija path but for now she is still in the Templar camp. If it was a RL situation I certain would never trust her again on any path. I'd be bye bye and on my way, even on the Kaija path.

haha that's one reason you will always be a stronger person than me. Even in real life I don't think I'd have it in me to cut her off from my life. At least if I view her as a friend or something more. I've had a few friends in the past that have done some minor and major few fucked up things to me and I never was able to cut them out of my life even tho now that im older I see , I should of but still don't think I could do it. Never been a person that can do that no matter what cause of my personality.

 

[Malicre]

haha that's one reason you will always be a stronger person than me. Even in real life I don't think I'd have it in me to cut her off from my life. At least if I view her as a friend or something more. I've had a few friends in the past that have done some minor and major few fucked up things to me and I never was able to cut them out of my life even tho now that im older I see , I should of but still don't think I could do it. Never been a person that can do that no matter what cause of my personality.

We can talk beliefs and morality all you want but trust is something that once gone is hard to re obtain and Kaija lost that in droves. You can still keep her in your life as a work buddy but most wouldn't re open that relationship.

 

[Dessolos]

We can talk beliefs and morality all you want but trust is something that once gone is hard to re obtain and Kaija lost that in droves. You can still keep her in your life as a work buddy but most wouldn't re open that relationship.

honestly she never lost my trust at least completely maybe on the hate path when I play it.

you can shit on her a bit, she is an adult and should be able to make choice herself, like being honest with her childhood best friend. but she was basically enlisted by his parents from childhood as the perfect kid to brainwash into the order. she is an adult and makes decisions, but her reasoning and loyalty are ingrained into her by years of conditioning, reinforced by the "family" aspect of the templars that her personal homelife lacked.

MC can not trust her, but can't really hate her either. my thoughts at least

This is pretty much why I see her parents being the ones to blame more. The trust thing is complicated for me , as I'm able to separate trust in her case into 2 categories. Trust for the MC within a relationship and trust when it comes to other matters that might involve the templars. it I see her being completely trustworthy within a relationship be it as a friend or girlfriend. The other one im more mixed on. If on the love path potentially even on the friend path to a smaller extent I see her being more trustworthy over an order the templars might give her. Assuming it's something she completely disagrees with that could get the MC killed or put it in danger. Yet her loyalty does blind her judgement like with the fight with the Hell spawn. So I feel like when it comes to the templars she is and isn't trustworthy at the same time at least to me.

 

[duckydoodoo]

And while all of this was happening Kaija still didn't say shit. I can actually forgive the parents more then her, at least their reasoning is simple, to keep their kids safe where as Kaija's lie was made out of loyalty to the templars and your family, not you and if the situation didn't arise she would still be lying to you.

She's literally on my shit list, ranks right down there with Steph from LoF who's another character who thought she was doing the right thing for the wrong reason.

you can shit on her a bit, she is an adult and should be able to make choice herself, like being honest with her childhood best friend. but she was basically enlisted by his parents from childhood as the perfect kid to brainwash into the order. she is an adult and makes decisions, but her reasoning and loyalty are ingrained into her by years of conditioning, reinforced by the "family" aspect of the templars that her personal homelife lacked.

MC can not trust her, but can't really hate her either. my thoughts at least

 

[Malicre]

you can shit on her a bit, she is an adult and should be able to make choice herself, like being honest with her childhood best friend. but she was basically enlisted by his parents from childhood as the perfect kid to brainwash into the order. she is an adult and makes decisions, but her reasoning and loyalty are ingrained into her by years of conditioning, reinforced by the "family" aspect of the templars that her personal homelife lacked.

MC can not trust her, but can't really hate her either. my thoughts at least

Being loyal to the templars = brainwashing

Y'all will make any excuses for her. I can't anymore, you win.

 

[nitkonikic]

Being loyal to the templars = brainwashing

Y'all will make any excuses for her. I can't anymore, you win.

I absolutely hate her guts, but I'm with him here, she is brainwashed.
Heck, one of the confrontational choices in chapter 5 literaly calls out family they're sending kids to get brainwashed.

She sees Templars as perfect, follows any order to a letter, and believes everything they do is just and right.
That's why there is such a huge difference between love and other paths.

On love (or just very high score, just don't kiss her) she starts doubting some things , seeing flaws where previously she went with the flow because she knows nothing else.

This is the order that's fine with other organisations killing innocents just because they found out about Neverwhere. They think that's fine. They train kids from young age that is fine. They train them to believe Templars are humanities best defense. And then you take a look at their inner council and they're just bunch of lying cunts.
Ever played Fallout? Templars are Brotherhood of Steel. All power to themselves, under the pretense it's for the betterment of others.

And those who grow up in that environment? They know nothing but what they were told.

So yes, fuck Kaija, but she is brainwashed. And my MC is too tired to give a shit about it. Either she learns on her own, or she can rot with mommy and daddy dear far away from MC. They cared better for her anyway, probably won't even notice MC is gone.

 

[Real Kreten]

As I am preferring understanding approach, I took 4 calm and 1 confrontational stances. 1 confrontational was because of their was because of their attempt to use Linnea example to defend lying as good thing.

As I am preferring understanding approach, I need a little help from you to understand why to burn bridges? If I ignore that I don't see what it should be good for. I am finding some of confrontational stances mentally retarded in dialog with parents. Taking calmer approach isn't natural for everybody, but it looks to me, that you need to have very low emotional intelligence to go fully on confrontation.

MC make distance between him and parent on calm approach as well. So it isn't necessary to go "burn bridges, burn". And yes, that what I agree with you. He need to separate from them and has several reasons for it.
-It is better to start new and building new trust after they understand that old orders does not apply.
-Parents are Templars and Templars are compromised, without processes to clean themselves or or prevent questionable decisions.
-MC has more space to act as independent mediator in present situation.



To last point. I took "neutral" choice in discussion with nightingale. However, MC didn't deny being Templar once. "Fuck the Templar" has far better text on this.
So although I am taking neutral stance with Templars, it look like I should use "fuck the Templars" so alfars understand my affinity better.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

haha that's one reason you will always be a stronger person than me. Even in real life I don't think I'd have it in me to cut her off from my life. At least if I view her as a friend or something more. I've had a few friends in the past that have done some minor and major few fucked up things to me and I never was able to cut them out of my life even tho now that im older I see , I should of but still don't think I could do it. Never been a person that can do that no matter what cause of my personality.

I was the same. Kept people in my life (especially family) who did the wrong thing by me and the disrespect got worse. They developed an attitude that I would always forgive no matter what they did. Not any more much older and wiser now. Think of it as a type of cancer.

We can talk beliefs and morality all you want but trust is something that once gone is hard to re obtain and Kaija lost that in droves. You can still keep her in your life as a work buddy but most wouldn't re open that relationship.

100% agree

 

[metamorphMP]

I absolutely hate her guts, but I'm with him here, she is brainwashed.
Heck, one of the confrontational choices in chapter 5 literaly calls out family they're sending kids to get brainwashed.

She sees Templars as perfect, follows any order to a letter, and believes everything they do is just and right.
That's why there is such a huge difference between love and other paths.

On love (or just very high score, just don't kiss her) she starts doubting some things , seeing flaws where previously she went with the flow because she knows nothing else.

This is the order that's fine with other organisations killing innocents just because they found out about Neverwhere. They think that's fine. They train kids from young age that is fine. They train them to believe Templars are humanities best defense. And then you take a look at their inner council and they're just bunch of lying cunts.
Ever played Fallout? Templars are Brotherhood of Steel. All power to themselves, under the pretense it's for the betterment of others.

And those who grow up in that environment? They know nothing but what they were told.

So yes, fuck Kaija, but she is brainwashed. And my MC is too tired to give a shit about it. Either she learns on her own, or she can rot with mommy and daddy dear far away from MC. They cared better for her anyway, probably won't even notice MC is gone.

I get the part abut brainwashing, agree on 100%... buuuut what about some common sense, like simple things - what is bad and what is not, she is an adult and it's not like she spent her whole life in a tower or where ever locked out from the world.

She literally admits that this whole fake relationship made her mission easier, it was very convenient and the way she says it - is soooo... I dunno like something so usual and common, damn, that was so fucking off putting, and her cold behaviour after - like mission is accomplished - bye bye)) I am still gonna play her other paths to see the difference but I don't keep my hopes up.