VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.5.0.4p] [Ceolag]

[HornyyPussy]

Pretty much yeah...when's the update?

 

[ename144]

Spoiler: Here you go

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Wait, the Alfar will imprison the MC for having the temerity to win a duel they forced him to fight over his strong objections? I probably shouldn't be surprised, but somehow I am. Even with all the Templar shenanigans we've been subjected to, that really takes the cake.

 

[xapican]

Wait, the Alfar will imprison the MC for having the temerity to win a duel they forced him to fight over his strong objections? I probably shouldn't be surprised, but somehow I am. Even with all the Templar shenanigans we've been subjected to, that really takes the cake.

anyway it's all the Templars fault they have to burn !

 

[TrixRabbit]

Wait, the Alfar will imprison the MC for having the temerity to win a duel they forced him to fight over his strong objections? I probably shouldn't be surprised, but somehow I am. Even with all the Templar shenanigans we've been subjected to, that really takes the cake.

Rightfully so. Remember at that point in the game, they're still surprised and a little angry you came and you've only been granted safe passage until you get to Medb. It's by sparing Finn that you demonstrate that you're different from the Templars and maybe you're worth hearing out. If you kill her then you're just another Templar to them, trespassing in their domain with no good reason to be there. (If you spare Finn they treat you almost like royalty during your seven week stay and teach you a lot of things - training you to fight, answering all of your questions about everything - minus a few that they flat out tell you are secret and they can't tell you. You have a chat with their king over some sword training and meet the Lady of the Lake who - along with Medb - tells you all about your sword, it's history and abilities - all because you didn't act like a Templar and kill someone when she was at your mercy.)

 

[xapican]

all because you didn't act like a Templar and kill someone when she was at your mercy.)

WTF ?? Dude!
Edit: to gain points with Medb you have to be ruthless. Kill the Mercenary and use distraction to get an Edge. "the Sword lesson" the King Litterally shows you to fight Dirty, (besides the usual Hema stuff)

 

[TrixRabbit]

WTF ?? Dude!

That is basically why the paths diverge.
Edit: I don't remember who says it - Medb or Finn - but it's basically "You spared her when you were within your rights not to, maybe you're not like them after all."

 

[Maviarab]

all because you didn't act like a Templar and kill someone when she was at your mercy.)

Have you actually seen a templar do that? Heard of a templar doing that? That's right, no you haven't.... Also, if kill Finn, you're still not treated badly. Sure, you don't have the run of the city but you are not mistreated and both Mab and her father admit you had every right as she started it. Little tip for you I have to tell many people (especially in this thread), don't quote opinions as facts.

I'm genuinly curious...is there a VN you actually do like and don't incessantly complain about content that's in it?

 

[TrixRabbit]

Have you actually seen a templar do that? Heard of a templar doing that? That's right, no you haven't.... Also, if kill Finn, you're still not treated badly. Sure, you don't have the run of the city but you are not mistreated and both Mab and her father admit you had every right as she started it.

I'm genuinly curious...is there a VN you actually do like and don't incessantly whine about content that's in it?

We're having a disagreement about paths, I'm not whining about the content. You just can't put together an argument to save your life so you're trying to deflect.

Edit: Also, it's not about what I have seen or what I believe. It's about what the elves expect from a Templar and how you change that expectation.

 

[ename144]

Rightfully so. Remember at that point in the game, they're still surprised and a little angry you came and you've only been granted safe passage until you get to Medb. It's by sparing Finn that you demonstrate that you're different from the Templars and maybe you're worth hearing out. If you kill her then you're just another Templar to them, trespassing in their domain with no good reason to be there. (If you spare Finn they treat you almost like royalty during your seven week stay and teach you a lot of things - training you to fight, answering all of your questions about everything - minus a few that they flat out tell you are secret and they can't tell you. You have a chat with their king over some sword training and meet the Lady of the Lake who - along with Medb - tells you all about your sword, it's history and abilities - all because you didn't act like a Templar and kill someone when she was at your mercy.)

I don't care how badly they think of the Templars, the Alfar are the ones who agreed to grant the MC safe passage only to force him to accept a duel TO THE DEATH! the instant that passage ended. They have no leg to stand if they try to complain about what the MC does at that point. You don't get to legalize the murder of your guests then get pissy if the guest injures someone in the struggle; the Templars look positively enlightened compared to that!

As far as them treating the MC like royalty if he spares Finnabair... no. They mostly just ignore him. Finnabair trains him, but she literally had to be ordered into it. Maybe Medb's order indicates she thinks the MC deserves a royal treatment, but it could just as easily indicate she sees the MC as a useful pawn and wants him in her debt (particularly if he doesn't rack up enough points for her to talk about Durendal). It's worth remembering that the MC's forced to leave Alfheimr (on threat of imprisonment) as soon as war is decided upon, so he's clearly still seen as a Templar on some level.

 

[TrixRabbit]

I don't care how badly they think of the Templars, the Alfar are the ones who agreed to grant the MC safe passage only to force him to accept a duel TO THE DEATH! the instant that passage ended. They have no leg to stand if they try to complain about what the MC does at that point. You don't get to legalize the murder of your guests then get pissy if the guest injures someone in the struggle; the Templars look positively enlightened compared to that!

As far as them treating the MC like royalty if he spares Finnabair... no. They mostly just ignore him. Finnabair trains him, but she literally had to be ordered into it. Maybe Medb's order indicates she thinks the MC deserves a royal treatment, but it could just as easily indicate she sees the MC as a useful pawn and wants him in her debt (particularly if he doesn't rack up enough points for her to talk about Durendal). It's worth remembering that the MC's forced to leave Alfheimr (on threat of imprisonment) as soon as war is decided upon, so he's clearly still seen as a Templar on some level.

Only Finnabars father offers you safe passage - he says you'll be safe until you're delivered to Medb but that's all he can promise. You weren't invited. Finn asks if your safe passage is over now before she attacks - because at that point, once you've been delivered, they owe you squat. You're an uninvited guest from people they don't like.

Finnabair is ordered to but I said that it was up to her, and then she shows up the next morning and thanks you for leaving it up to her.

The MC is treated like Royalty absolutely. His room is gorgeous, with a beautiful view of the city. He gets his education in the evenings from the 4th highest ranked of the elves, and his combat training from her daughter and later from the king. He never wants for anything nor do they pressure him, or even ask him, for any information about the Templars.

And Medb is basically doing MC a great kindness by ordering him out of Alfheimr - she just lost her daughter, they are preparing for war. She says that it's not that she wants him gone but she is not all of Alfheimr and they will treat him like a prisoner if he stays. She could have taken Finns death out on him, or through him on his family. Instead she invites him to the funeral and stands with him while she says goodbye.

 

[ename144]

Only Finnabars father offers you safe passage - he says you'll be safe until you're delivered to Medb but that's all he can promise. You weren't invited. Finn asks if your safe passage is over now before she attacks - because at that point, once you've been delivered, they owe you squat. You're an uninvited guest from people they don't like.

Finnabair is ordered to but I said that it was up to her, and then she shows up the next morning and thanks you for leaving it up to her.

The MC is treated like Royalty absolutely. His room is gorgeous, with a beautiful view of the city. He gets his education in the evenings from the 4th highest ranked of the elves, and his combat training from her daughter and later from the king. He never wants for anything nor do they pressure him, or even ask him, for any information about the Templars.

And Medb is basically doing MC a great kindness by ordering him out of Alfheimr - she just lost her daughter, they are preparing for war. She says that it's not that she wants him gone but she is not all of Alfheimr and they will treat him like a prisoner if he stays. She could have taken Finns death out on him, or through him on his family. Instead she invites him to the funeral and stands with him while she says goodbye.

Ailill was clearly authorized to grant safe passage, and there's every reason to believe Medb could have likewise granted the MC safe passage out of Alheimr after she refused to indulge his whim. She did not. Instead she allowed Finnabair to challenge the MC to - and I need to belabor this point because it's quite important - A DUEL TO THE DEATH!, then failed to warn the MC about the rules of that duel until it was too late and the duel had started.

So to sum up, the Alfar considered it right and proper that the MC not only duel Finnabair, but that said duel should end in death. At that point the MC killing Finnabair is quite literally doing what the Alfar demanded of him. They have no business doing anything but letting him be on his way after the fight, but apparently they detain him anyway. Elves evidently take hypocrisy to an artform. I'd prefer not to see any culture wiped out, but I'm certainly not going to shed any tears over the Alfar if the MC can't find a way to save them.

As far as Medb doing the MC a kindness, I again disagree. As I implied above, I have much higher standards for diplomacy than "fuck off and die," and Medb can't even make it to that level until the MC spares Finnabair's life. Plus she only invites him to the funeral if he ingratiates himself to her by wracking up enough points; if you don't meet her high bar (albeit slightly less high than it was originally) she's very terse and confrontational when she orders the MC to leave. In that case she's doing the bare minimum she can to honor his flag of truce. Again.

 

[TrixRabbit]

Ailill was clearly authorized to grant safe passage, and there's every reason to believe Medb could have likewise granted the MC safe passage out of Alheimr after she refused to indulge his whim. She did not. Instead she allowed Finnabair to challenge the MC to - and I need to belabor this point because it's quite important - A DUEL TO THE DEATH!, then failed to warn the MC about the rules of that duel until it was too late and the duel had started.

So to sum up, the Alfar considered it right and proper that the MC not only duel Finnabair, but that said duel should end in death. At that point the MC killing Finnabair is quite literally doing what the Alfar demanded of him. They have no business doing anything but letting him be on his way after the fight, but apparently they detain him anyway. Elves evidently take hypocrisy to an artform. I'd prefer not to see any culture wiped out, but I'm certainly not going to shed any tears over the Alfar if the MC can't find a way to save them.

As far as Medb doing the MC a kindness, I again disagree. As I implied above, I have much higher standards for diplomacy than "fuck off and die," and Medb can't even make it to that level until the MC spares Finnabair's life. Plus she only invites him to the funeral if he ingratiates himself to her by wracking up enough points; if you don't meet her high bar (albeit slightly less high than it was originally) she's very terse and confrontational when she orders the MC to leave. In that case she's doing the bare minimum she can to honor his flag of truce. Again.

They both tried to stop Finnabar but as she said, it was her right to make the challenge and so they couldn't literally force her to stop - and while they didn't want him to die, he came from their hated enemy and so they wouldn't lose much sleep over it. MC was supposed to be there (according to him) on a mission of peace so it's pretty obvious that the way you prove you're there to do good, and to demonstrate your good will is to spare Finnobar. If you did anything else, then you didn't really get why he was there. And scoring points with Medb isn't hard. You basically just have to not be a dick while you're a guest there. It's not particularly high standards. But I get it. You're a Templar, through and through.

Edit: It's also worth noting that you're only the second human they've allowed to stay there at all. The first was Medb's adopted brother (and former owner of your sword) who arrived as an infant and died fighting for the Templars.

 

[Jack Nippleson]

My old ass trying to keep up and read all of that without the popcorn.

 

[xapican]

died fighting for the Templars.

Of course because he was one ! and Medb tells you that !

 

[ename144]

They both tried to stop Finnabar but as she said, it was her right to make the challenge and so they couldn't literally force her to stop - and while they didn't want him to die, he came from their hated enemy and so they wouldn't lose much sleep over it. MC was supposed to be there (according to him) on a mission of peace so it's pretty obvious that the way you prove you're there to do good, and to demonstrate your good will is to spare Finnobar. If you did anything else, then you didn't really get why he was there. And scoring points with Medb isn't hard. You basically just have to not be a dick while you're a guest there. It's not particularly high standards. But I get it. You're a Templar, through and through.

Edit: It's also worth noting that you're only the second human they've allowed to stay there at all. The first was Medb's adopted brother (and former owner of your sword) who arrived as an infant and died fighting for the Templars.

You say they couldn't force Finnabair to stop... and yet when the MC disarms Finnabair and refuses to kill her, that's exactly what Medb finally does. It's pretty clear that Medb COULD have forced Finnabair to back down earlier (or at least limited the duel to end in something short of death), she just didn't care to.

And sure, the MC killing Finnabair definitely terminates any hope of finding a peaceful resolution (that's a big part of why I spared her), but that has no bearing on whether the Alfar have any right to detain the MC. They'd already rejected his mission and insisted he fight for his life - which makes them assholes of the highest order if they act outraged that he danced to the tune they called.

 

[TrixRabbit]

You say they couldn't force Finnabair to stop... and yet when the MC disarms Finnabair and refuses to kill her, that's exactly what Medb finally does. It's pretty clear that Medb COULD have forced Finnabair to back down earlier (or at least limited the duel to end in something short of death), she just didn't care to.

And sure, the MC killing Finnabair definitely terminates any hope of finding a peaceful resolution (that's a big part of why I spared her), but that has no bearing on whether the Alfar have any right to detain the MC. They'd already rejected his mission and insisted he fight for his life - which makes them assholes of the highest order if they act outraged that he danced to the tune they called.

She can stop her after because she had her duel and lost. And you're confusing two separate things. The challenge is Finnabairs right they can't force her to give up that right - they can only force the issue when she has lost. She has escaped her challenge with her life, but should not have. How they treat MC is a different / seperate issue. They have never allowed a human visitor before (with the exception of the one who arrived as an infant) and they have no intention of doing so now - especially not a Templar. But then MC changes the equation by letting Finnabair live. Then they grudgingly allow him to visit but it's a day by day thing - his behavior will determine how long he can stay, and how much of an audience he will get. Without Finnabair's challenge, they would have simply kicked him out or killed him. IIRC the Elves used to live in the human world as well but were basically exterminated and forced to retreat, then at another point humans tried to colonize Alfheimr and were driven out - with great loss of life on both sides. They have no love for humans, and less for Templars and everyone tried to tell MC he was stupid for going there.

 

[Dessolos]

Well at least they are talking about something else than why Kaija sucks or doesn't suck lol

 

[ename144]

She can stop her after because she had her duel and lost. And you're confusing two separate things. The challenge is Finnabairs right they can't force her to give up that right - they can only force the issue when she has lost. She has escaped her challenge with her life, but should not have. How they treat MC is a different / seperate issue. They have never allowed a human visitor before (with the exception of the one who arrived as an infant) and they have no intention of doing so now - especially not a Templar. But then MC changes the equation by letting Finnabair live. Then they grudgingly allow him to visit but it's a day by day thing - his behavior will determine how long he can stay, and how much of an audience he will get. Without Finnabair's challenge, they would have simply kicked him out or killed him. IIRC the Elves used to live in the human world as well but were basically exterminated and forced to retreat, then at another point humans tried to colonize Alfheimr and were driven out - with great loss of life on both sides. They have no love for humans, and less for Templars and everyone tried to tell MC he was stupid for going there.

I'm not confusing anything. It was - and I'm tired of having to repeat this - a duel to the death. Finnabair wasn't dead. Evil as it was, she was well within her technical rights to get back up and kill the MC if he refused to finish her off, yet suddenly NOW it was okay for Medb to alter the terms of the duel. You know, once she realized it was her own flesh and blood that was actually in danger.

Sorry, but I'll take the MC's moronic parents and non-love-path Kaija over that any day.

 

[TrixRabbit]

I'm not confusing anything. It was - and I'm tired of having to repeat this - a duel to the death. Finnabair wasn't dead. Evil as it was, she was well within her technical rights to get back up and kill the MC if he refused to finish her off, yet suddenly NOW it was okay for Medb to alter the terms of the duel. You know, once she realized it was her own flesh and blood that was actually in danger.

Sorry, but I'll take the MC's moronic parents and non-love-path Kaija over that any day.

Ha ha... ok well enjoy them.

 

[Pixillin']

I'm not confusing anything. It was - and I'm tired of having to repeat this - a duel to the death. Finnabair wasn't dead. Evil as it was, she was well within her technical rights to get back up and kill the MC if he refused to finish her off, yet suddenly NOW it was okay for Medb to alter the terms of the duel. You know, once she realized it was her own flesh and blood that was actually in danger.

Sorry, but I'll take the MC's moronic parents and non-love-path Kaija over that any day.

No. Finnabair had her challenge / duel - and lost. That's why she had to stop. Instead of being dead, she had a "life debt" but her challenge was still over - she didn't get a second one. You can't challenge someone you owe a life debt to to a fight to the death. I mean, I haven't been to their courts but I think in that situation you'd just have to kill yourself. And unlike your parents and Kaija, at least Finnabair was honest. You might not like the message, but trying to kill you is completely honest.