- Apr 2, 2023
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After all sides get decimated in an all out brawl.
- Thread starter 7767
- Start date
- Sep 20, 2018
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How does it being an emotional reaction make their actions any less unacceptable? Regardless of what crimes the Templars might have visited upon the Alfar in the past (and we currently have no specific evidence of crimes by either group against the other), the fact that they're happy to paint the entirety of humanity with the same brush is a serious problem - one the MC never gets a chance to help the Alfar address. Finnabair had started to come around, but she died, and the fact he needed to flee the city makes it clear the lesson hadn't taken with the Alfar at large.
There's also the issue of whether the Templars killing Finnabair (assuming they actually did so) might be justified. We've already established that the Alfar's hatred is beyond the bounds of reason, and we know they were willing to kidnap the Templar's Grandmaster unprovoked just to extract concessions from the group. It's hardly a stretch to think the Alfar might have ordered Finnabair to lead another unprovoked operation against the Templars which went pear shaped, in which case the people ultimately responsible for her death would be her superior officers, not the Templars. Are you going to burn down Alfheimr if that turns out to be the case?
As for Ailill dying instead of Finnabair, it wouldn't have had anywhere near as much emotional impact; he'd all but disappeared from the story by that point. It would also create a serious branching issue since he'd now be alive in saves that chose to kill Finnabair, effectively making any future interactions with either character much more complicated to write since they'd need to account for that possibility. So I don't think this could be a practical suggestion - as much as I would have preferred it if our primary contact with Alfar society survived her introductory chapter.
Other than kidnapping with the intent to murder the Grandmaster
Only it wasn't to extract concessions. Medb planned the scenario knowing full well that the terms for his release were beyond anything that could be accepted or negotiated away from. So fabricate a situation that allows them to murder someone and transfer blame. She admits that much on her own.
"We had to kill him because you didn't meet our demands" is right up there with "you agreed to a death duel because you weren't willing to die like the pathetic little human we need you to be."
No life debt from Medb and the father dies. She tried to sucker the MC into erasing that little bump in their plan at the release meeting.
- Sep 20, 2018
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I'm reluctant to call kidnapping the MC's father a "crime" because it's unclear just how bad relations were between the two groups at the start of the game. It's certainly an act of war, but the morality of war is complicated, and if relations had already broken down acts of war are the nature of the beast. They obviously cause massive problems, but they don't tend to spawn virulent hatred the way a "crime" (like massacring prisoners or assassinating members during peacetime) would.
Plus, if relations were bad enough to be on the brink of war, it's entirely possible the Templars had already made their own acts of war and the Alfar were merely upping the ante. We just don't know. I have no love for the Alfar, but that doesn't automatically mean the Templars are better.
As far as their plans for the Grandmaster, I don't think the Alfar were planning to kill him. They knew their initial ultimatum was almost certain to be rejected, but my impression is they figured they could eventually negotiate with the Templars for some lesser concessions in exchange for his release. If that didn't pan out then they would exploit the vulnerabilities that losing the Grandmaster would create when they went to war, but even then they probably wouldn't kill their prisoner since he could be a useful bargaining chip if and when they wanted a cease fire.
None of which means they wouldn't have killed the MC's father if they thought it would help them or he was likely to escape. They absolutely would have. I just don't think that was their primary goal.
As much as I want to say that nobody is stupid enough to think the outcome could be any less than total war and annihilation. History is filled with supposedly wise rulers thinking they could kick a bear and negotiate out of it. Sadly, history also shows us that it can happen.
I will disagree on the kidnapping being a crime or act of war. Until you declare war, it's a crime against an individual. I'll avoid bringing up real world examples to avoid that "political" hornets nest. Had they declared war on the back of the offense, then maybe you could lawyer that one as the opening salvo. That isn't what they did though. By their own admission, they made demands that would only give a flaky excuse to commit murder.
You really do not have enough context to know how much information we have so far is speculation or just lies, and nothing so far has given me the impression that the Templars and the Alfar were in a hot war, just a cold, if neutral, one.
Both factions have their reasons to lie to you... and if they meant harm, they could have just as easily have killed the Grandmaster instead of kidnapped him.
I am very interested to know what the Alfar game is with the MC, because everything I've seen so far points to a carefully curated view of their world.
- Oct 8, 2024
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Not too carefully curated because yes, most of the time you're with Fin during the day and Medb in the evenings but when you're not you're encouraged to "wander around the city and talk to people, just don't be too surprised if they don't want to talk to you ... or something like that." So unless the whole city (2+ million people) is in on it they're not trying to hide anything. The only time Finn doesn't want to let you go where you want to is when you go to meet the Lady of the Lake - but only because Finn is kindof afraid of her. You do it anyway and Finn is fine during and after.
It's a fairly advanced city by all accounts and they're a tightly knit community from the looks of it, why would they NOT all be in on it? They had plenty of time to spread the word to the general populace, and it's very much an intentional choice that they don't speak in his language around him.
I don't buy that they didn't curate his visit. I WILL buy that Finn might have actually changed her mind, but not on that.
- Oct 8, 2024
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No. I mean that's just flat out wrong - not a matter of opinion, just wrong. The idea of getting 2 - 2.5 million people to all play along with something for 7-10 weeks and have nobody fuck it up is just absurd, it can't be done. Especially since they're not telepathic, and they don't have internet or even telephones.
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- Oct 8, 2024
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I'm playing through again, trying a few different things and maybe setting up some saves with side girls (like Kate maybe) as main Li's - since I'm really down to just Fionna.
Anyway, I was reading and thinking about MC and Kajia's relationship in the early game and I think I would have been close to ending things anyway. It doesn't really feel like they're much of a couple anyway, more like FWB + a place for her to store her clothes. I said once that the first thing I would have done when I found out was give her an ultimatum - the templars or me. But I think I'd be pretty close to that anyway - not in a hostile way but in a ... I know you love your job but this isn't working for me ... way.
Anyway, I was reading and thinking about MC and Kajia's relationship in the early game and I think I would have been close to ending things anyway. It doesn't really feel like they're much of a couple anyway, more like FWB + a place for her to store her clothes. I said once that the first thing I would have done when I found out was give her an ultimatum - the templars or me. But I think I'd be pretty close to that anyway - not in a hostile way but in a ... I know you love your job but this isn't working for me ... way.
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We're not talking about humans, we're talking about Alfar.
- Jul 12, 2020
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- Feb 11, 2024
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I wonder, before the whole kidnapping and attempted assassination thing, what Kajia and the Templars reactions would have been. If Kajia had to choose between staying close to MC, and being a Templar - had to get a regular job, no more top secret work, no more business trips, no more mysterious phone calls ... or wouldn't really see MC anymore. Also assuming that they couldn't just send in a new agent because he wouldn't go near anyone with a similar lifestyle to Kajias
- Sep 24, 2018
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Caught up on the current version, think knowing about Finn stopped me caring too much about her since It felt kind of pointless to do so but I did end up liking her enough to still be bummed out. Honestly though I feel like there's something off about her death, not just that It's way to convenient to blame the Templars, It was almost certainly the 3rd party but just how quick It seemed and I'm just not a fan of off screen deaths in general.
For the main and I guess only real LI's I can't say there's one I am sold on completely, went Kaija's love path since I expected her to be way worse after reading this thread, I didn't so much trust Kaija as I did Jessica and the whole girls just know the stuff thing. Jessica is hands down the best girl in this imo, a damn tragedy.
Elea I do like since she seems the most normal at the moment, though she is interested in myths and legends so will likely be dragged into it somehow.
Fiona Is the closest to no.1 out of the 4 real LI's largely because she is a redhead and Irish, redhead supremacy!. Also has a doggo for bonus points.
Medb or "Mass Effect Data Base" as I started to read her name since I don't know how to pronounce it, Is fine but again the whole ending of the last part felt off to me and she may not be super trustworthy yet.
And as already said, Jessica is best girl hands down, no question. People are talking about going scorched earth for Finn, I however, will go scorched earth on anyone who hurts Jessica.
For the main and I guess only real LI's I can't say there's one I am sold on completely, went Kaija's love path since I expected her to be way worse after reading this thread, I didn't so much trust Kaija as I did Jessica and the whole girls just know the stuff thing. Jessica is hands down the best girl in this imo, a damn tragedy.
Elea I do like since she seems the most normal at the moment, though she is interested in myths and legends so will likely be dragged into it somehow.
Fiona Is the closest to no.1 out of the 4 real LI's largely because she is a redhead and Irish, redhead supremacy!. Also has a doggo for bonus points.
Medb or "Mass Effect Data Base" as I started to read her name since I don't know how to pronounce it, Is fine but again the whole ending of the last part felt off to me and she may not be super trustworthy yet.
And as already said, Jessica is best girl hands down, no question. People are talking about going scorched earth for Finn, I however, will go scorched earth on anyone who hurts Jessica.
- Aug 4, 2022
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What kind of monster would give your mom & sis this kind of cake in a non-'cest game?
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- Feb 11, 2024
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Jessica is great and I'm glad there isn't an incest path. That would be weird in this game, and I wouldn't take it anyway. Having her as your unshakable best friend is great.
Finn was my #1 in this game, even though she was never meant to be a real Li - I would have just been with her, even if she didn't have much content. So far it's the only relationship in this game that feels earned - as opposed to you show up and she falls for you.
Fionna is next out of the big 4 but she's hiding something big - we don't even know her real name. When MC meets her she says "My name is F ...iona" and there are a few times when she looks at MC and does a sad sigh when he's not looking. Also not sure about her age. She keeps talking about dark secrets in her past but she looks like she's mid 20s maybe ... anyway. I like her but she's sus.
Medb I like very much, but she doesn't work for me as a Li. She's like 2000 years old, MC would just be a footnote in her biography. You wouldn't even have much to talk about, she already knows pretty much everything, or she doesn't care enough to learn it. Plus, having my best girl die and then turning around and starting a relationship with her mom feels weird to me.
Elea is just not interesting to me at all. Never found her particularly attractive or interesting. She's a co-worker who is good to go to lunch with sometimes and that's about it.
Kaija - I could absolutely never trust again. She would have to leave the templars behind completely, and get a normal job where she was home every night for me to even think about it. No more late nights, no more "business trips", no more mysterious phone calls - and not even in the civilian /non-combatant part of the Templars.
I have 6 saves, 1 for Fionna, 1 for Medb (even though), 1 for Kaija - but I still burned bridges and that save will probably die in the next update, and then 3 for side girls ... just because I'm unsatisfied with the main girls: Anissa, Kate and Kari.
- Sep 24, 2018
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For sure agree that incest would be too weird, wouldn't hate getting an ending with her just as a brother/sister team thing if you choose no one.
Agree with the Mebd age thing, would like her more If It wasn't just small part of her life, though Finn would have had the same problem for me.
Fiona does have something going on, could be bad but my weakness for redheads is too strong.
Side girls are kind of meh, only ones I have any interest in are Kate and Helena.
- Oct 1, 2023
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to Jessica. In my save, a deep rift runs through the family and Jessica is right in the middle of it. It remains to be seen how the dev develops her further and how she handles the family situation, but at the current stage I wouldn't rule out a rift with Jessica. On the other hand, the "brother-sister story" you described could be very interesting. As the Alfar Queen has already noted, she has a lot of potential. But I don't see anything more than "brother-sister love" here.
to Kaija: This bitch has no right to exist in my saves at all! Unfortunately, there is a fear that when he returns, some kind of communication/interaction will take place with her and with the MC's parents (which I have no desire/interest in at all). I will take a close look at the upcoming dialogues/actions in v0.6, as they give an indication of how seriously the dev takes the "Burning Bridges" thing. I fear a soft path!
about Fiona/Elea: I don't see anything more than superficial friendships here. They're a nice way to pass the time, but that's about it. Perhaps something could develop with Fiona in the future, as she seems to be (still) withholding information from the MC that could be of interest to the MC.
about Medb: I've since changed my opinion of her. At the moment she's used to gather information and for extensive Alfar combat training and an additional session with King Oberon, which could prove useful later. But more? Well, I agree with the previous speaker; it feels strange to be involved with a 1000-2000 year old Alfar.
Conclusion: My MC has more important priorities than jumping into the "love fray". From my perspective, the female material currently on offer really doesn't blow me away.
to Kaija: This bitch has no right to exist in my saves at all! Unfortunately, there is a fear that when he returns, some kind of communication/interaction will take place with her and with the MC's parents (which I have no desire/interest in at all). I will take a close look at the upcoming dialogues/actions in v0.6, as they give an indication of how seriously the dev takes the "Burning Bridges" thing. I fear a soft path!
about Fiona/Elea: I don't see anything more than superficial friendships here. They're a nice way to pass the time, but that's about it. Perhaps something could develop with Fiona in the future, as she seems to be (still) withholding information from the MC that could be of interest to the MC.
about Medb: I've since changed my opinion of her. At the moment she's used to gather information and for extensive Alfar combat training and an additional session with King Oberon, which could prove useful later. But more? Well, I agree with the previous speaker; it feels strange to be involved with a 1000-2000 year old Alfar.
Conclusion: My MC has more important priorities than jumping into the "love fray". From my perspective, the female material currently on offer really doesn't blow me away.
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