- Aug 20, 2023
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I have less faith, he created kaija.....I have faith (even though he killed Fin......)!
- Thread starter 7767
- Start date
- Apr 26, 2020
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- Dec 17, 2021
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- Oct 8, 2024
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I did the full blow up with the parents - burned bridges - dumped Kajia had as little to do with the Templars as I could get away with and don't even acknowledge their existence or the work they do as a positive thing. I think humanity would be better off it it knew about the threats and challenges - I also think humanity would be more successful in fighting them off if they were aware. I think recruitment to go fight monsters would outpace any regular military recruitment and it wouldn't be just a few hundred templars scattered around the world. I think the organization is incompetent at its core, and that what MC's parents and Kajia did was not only deceitful but stupid (it put MC and his sister in greater danger rather than make them safer). So yeah, zero love or respect for the Templars even when I set off to meet the Alfir. Finn's murder is just the icing on the cake.
- Oct 8, 2024
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Of the women we've met so far, for me, only Fiona and Kate are still in the running.
- Sep 20, 2018
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I will never understand how Medb makes a stronger impression than the Templars. She seems every bit as dogmatic, racist, and manipulative as they are, with worse manners to boot. Sure, she didn't scheme to seduce him with one of her minions (that we know of!), but that has more to do with opportunity than it does with temperament.
Normally I'd joke that her shapely curves must be skewering everyone's judgement, but I can't even do that since the Templars have at least as many curves on their side as the Alfar - even more so now that Finnabair is gone.
"... you can't get fooled again!"
But as others have said, the issue isn't Medb's honesty, it's her judgement. She considers the MC a Templar when he gets challenged to a duel, and no doubt would consider it a Templar hit job if had the MC chosen to kill Finnabair in duel Medb herself forced him to fight! You'll forgive me if I dismiss her blaming Finnabair's death on the Templars as little more than a reflex action until I hear some actual details.
It's hard to argue humanity would be worse off without the Templars given what we've seen so far. That said, it's important to note that they may not be the ones keeping Neverwhere (et al) a secret from humanity at large. Kaija clearly states that the Templars have to make sure to keep a low profile lest they be eliminated themselves, which wouldn't make any sense if they were are the ones enforcing the masquerade.
Obviously it's possible Kaija is lying, but I consider that unlikely and there's certainly no evidence to dispute her take at the moment. I'd also note that Kari seems to be under orders not to disclose certain secrets herself, and based on what we know she definitely doesn't answer to the Templars. To me, it's pretty clear the 'politics' of the masquerade are a lot more complex than just the Templar/Elves dichotomy we were initially shown.
- May 6, 2023
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You guys go chase Kaija, Medb, Fiona, and Kate.
I'm happy having Elea alllllll to myself.
I'm happy having Elea alllllll to myself.
- Jul 12, 2020
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- Oct 8, 2024
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If you spare Finn - and aren't an asshole while you're visiting you see an entirely different side of Medb than the one she presents to the Templars. Yes she's very proud, she's 2000 years old and the 4th highest ranked of her people. She obviously feels a little superior to the 20 something human but you spend a lot of evenings talking to her and she is very open about everything.I will never understand how Medb makes a stronger impression than the Templars. She seems every bit as dogmatic, racist, and manipulative as they are, with worse manners to boot. Sure, she didn't scheme to seduce him with one of her minions (that we know of!), but that has more to do with opportunity than it does with temperament.
Normally I'd joke that her shapely curves must be skewering everyone's judgement, but I can't even do that since the Templars have at least as many curves on their side as the Alfar - even more so now that Finnabair is gone.
Based on what I know, which is all I can base opinions on, I think the Templars are a net negative for humanity as an organization. They are certainly a negative for MC. And Kajia has zero credibility with me. If she came in soaking wet and told me it was raining, I'd have to look to confirm.
- Jul 25, 2017
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but how can I when that means either Kaija or Medb will kill me when they find out. Fiona will probably just cry so at least she won't kill me.
- Aug 20, 2023
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A being that has old school weapons and is of unknown origin wont murder you? The only safe bet is Jessica
- Jul 25, 2017
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Fiona doesn't seem like the violent type to me. She seems more like the sweet and innocent type imo and only use violence as a last resort. So I dont think she wouldA being that has old school weapons and is of unknown origin wont murder you? The only safe bet is Jessica
- Sep 20, 2018
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Yeah, and if you do kill Finn, Medb wants to kill the MC for the heinous crime of not dying; it was the rest of the Alfar who insist on keeping him alive for ransom. And before you say the MC shouldn't be killing Alfar when he claims to come in peace, I remind you that at no point prior to the fateful decision did Medb mention that disarming an opponent was sufficient to win the duel - even when Finnabair was ranting about killing the MC if he didn't finish her off.
The fact Medb only warms to the MC if he'd literally rather die than defend himself from her daughter is, IMHO, a serious mark against her. She has a disturbing lack of empathy.
Also, is there any solid confirmation that Medb is actually #4 in the Alfar pecking order? We know she's powerful, and we know she isn't one of the three Monarchs, but it's not clear how many other powerful and/or influential Alfar might be out there.
Okay, so what would you do to confirm the story? All I ever hear from you is "Templars delenda est!!" I've never once heard you contemplate the notion there might be even the slightest downside to eliminating them.
So let's start small. What sort of evidence would you look for to know whether it's safe to spill the beans if and when the Templars are eliminated?
- Oct 8, 2024
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If that's the approach you take, then Medb would have been absolutely right to kill you. I certainly would in her shoes.
I wouldn't look for clues, I'd just spill - no one has given me a solid reason not to and even if there is some power out there forcing the Templars to remain quiet, I'll find out about them after I spill (with evidence). If that power then comes after MC and kills him, so be it. I'd take that as a good ending - the fall of the Templars and the truth getting out that is. It'd be worth it.
- Jul 26, 2023
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I'm with you my friend. I do like Medb, but Elea is still #1 for me at the moment.
- Sep 20, 2018
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If that's your attitude, I don't see why you object to the Templars.
The relevant issue is that you might stand a better chance successfully spilling the beans if you know what forces are available to contain a leak. It's easy to say you'll provide evidence when you reveal the secret, but if the guy you give that evidence to promptly shoots you in the head then burns the evidence before informing his Illuminati masters (or whatever the case may be), that's not much of a victory.
So seriously, setting aside your virulent hatred for the Templars for a second, what sort of evidence would you look for to figure out who enforces Neverwhere's secrecy?
- Oct 8, 2024
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Your thing with Medb is silly. You're acting like what she does, or wants to do is some kind of violation of your rights but you don't have any rights. You are an uninvited enemy who was caught in their territory. That you even got to see Medb at all is something of a victory but you really shouldn't go in to such a mission expecting anything but your own death.
And again, I wouldn't look for evidence of who enforces Neverwhere's secrecy. In the internet age, there are ways to get information out and make sure it remains alive. I do not expect the Templars to tell me anything, and even if they do I have absolutely no reason to believe it. I would just set about exposing it all, and wouldn't look for the Illuminati (or whoever). The only person I really trust on the human side at this point is a bartender.
- Sep 20, 2018
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Bullshit. The MC came in peace and was INVITED to make his case, only to learn the safe passage was effectively meaningless and rules lawyers could kill him at any time. If he then lives up to the exact wording of the conditions they forced on him, he's once again blamed for being too literal. The only winning move is to throw himself at the mercy of the court and hope the judge likes his wording. But the fact that can be effective doesn't make it right.
You seem to think the Alfar are entitled to behave however they want purely because they're "better" than humans, and I reject that notion utterly. I judge them by the same rules I judge anyone else. They had every right to refuse the MC an audience at the border, but they didn't. They also had every opportunity to end the MC's visit before it got lethal, and they didn't. They were happy to murder an envoy of peace as long the proper forms were filled out.
So yeah, I judge the Alfar both callous and untrustworthy. The fact they get pissy when the MC treats them half as them as callously as they've treated him simply makes them insufferable hypocrites to boot.
I'll agree with you about one thing, though: the MC shouldn't have gone on that mission expecting to survive. I'll be pleasantly surprised if he can express that realization now that it's been proven correct, but we'll see what happens if he ever meets Kari again.
If you think a secret *this* big has been kept for hundreds of years purely because no one thought to tattle, good luck with that.
- Oct 8, 2024
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That's not what happened at all. Nightingale tries to tell you it's a bad idea - but MC goes anyway. He may be on a mission of peace but Medb didn't invite him nor is he an official representative of anyone - he's not an emissary. Finn's father, because he showed mercy before, promises him safe passage TO Mebd but says that he can't make any guarantees beyond that and he tells you it's a bad idea and you should go home.
- Sep 20, 2018
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Not quite. Ailill says he will grant the MC safe passage to speak in Alfheimr, but does NOT say that speaking to the Alfar is a bad idea or something more dangerous than the MC's journey to this point. He notably does not specify that the MC will be in greater danger the instant he's done speaking, either. In fact, when the MC asks if Finnabair will stab him in the back, Ailill only says "She will respect the oath her father gave to you." Which turns out to be untrue: she at best grudgingly obeys a questionable interpretation of the letter of the law and flagrantly disregards the spirit. And he takes no action to hinder Finnabair when she challenges the MC to a duel against his wishes.
It's true that Nightingale says going to see the elves will get him killed, but then again the MC has no reason to consider her more of an expert on the Alfar than Kari (to say nothing of Ailill), so her advice is hardly definitive proof. But in the end, I don't think it matters. I agree the MC was acting foolishly here, but just because he's a fool that doesn't mean the people capitalizing on his naivety are in the right to do so.
The whole point of a flag of truce is to negotiate in safety; once the truce is accepted, it makes no difference (from an ethical sense) whether the person seeking was doing so on their own or at the behest of a larger organization. Granting a truce only to kill someone the instant the parley ends unsuccessfully defeats the point of the truce in the first place, which was to return the parties to the state they were in when they ASKED for the truce, not whatever state they're caught in part way through. Much like the way Medb refused to acknowledge the MC's refusal to duel yet took defending himself as an irrevocable acceptance, it's an underhanded practice that makes a mockery of the rules it purports to impose.
The Alfar get huffy whenever anyone calls them on their duplicity, but in my view the shoe fits.
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