VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.5.0] [Ceolag]

[ename144]

I've played through a decent chunk of Chapter 5. My initial response was very negative, partially because the transition from rescuing the MC's father to visiting Alfheimr was too sudden, but mostly because the time we spent with the Alfar felt relatively weightless. We definitely get a lot of great background on Alfar society in general, but we don't learn much about their relationship with humanity, we learn nothing about Medb, and the one character we do build a rapport with is sidelined by the cliffhanger.

The end result was equally unfulfilling on my next two run-throughs – I didn't have a Medb-focused save to test. Since it was pretty clear I'd missed something at the end of the chapter, however, I went back and tried to up my points with her to see what I could uncover. It took more effort than I expected before I finally unlocked Medb's scenes, but what a difference it made! It not only addressed a couple of my complaints head on, but it gave the whole chapter a much greater sense of cohesion and added a real sense of closure (if tragic) to the ending.

So how should I rate the chapter as a whole? If we take Medb's path into account, I do think this was a pretty strong update. But at the same time, I don't think my initial response was invalid when you DON'T see Medb's extended content. IMHO, that's a mistake. I get that Medb is the Alfr LI and it makes sense an MC who is close to Medb would learn more about her and her people than MC's with a poor relationship with her, but the balance – both in terms of how much content is gated and points required to open the gate – is wrong.

To discuss this further, we're going to have to dig into the spoilers.

Spoiler: Chapter 5 - The Importance of Dating Medb

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Spoiler: Chapter 5 - Other Good Things

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Spoiler: Chapter 5 - Other Bad Things

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Alright, I think that roughly sums up my thoughts. To reiterate, there's a lot to love in the chapter and I do think it will age well as later chapters fill in some of the missing pieces and sand down the rough edges. But I am still a little frustrated at how uninquisitive the MC is when it matters, and I feel strongly that the unlocking requirements for a key scene needs to be relaxed.

tl;dr We get some great background material and a few good character moments, but the chapter is too dependent on Medb's path to be satisfying.

 

[Ashira13]

I've played through a decent chunk of Chapter 5. My initial response was very negative, partially because the transition from rescuing the MC's father to visiting Alfheimr was too sudden, but mostly because the time we spent with the Alfar felt relatively weightless. We definitely get a lot of great background on Alfar society in general, but we don't learn much about their relationship with humanity, we learn nothing about Medb, and the one character we do build a rapport with is sidelined by the cliffhanger.

The end result was equally unfulfilling on my next two run-throughs – I didn't have a Medb-focused save to test. Since it was pretty clear I'd missed something at the end of the chapter, however, I went back and tried to up my points with her to see what I could uncover. It took more effort than I expected before I finally unlocked Medb's scenes, but what a difference it made! It not only addressed a couple of my complaints head on, but it gave the whole chapter a much greater sense of cohesion and added a real sense of closure (if tragic) to the ending.

So how should I rate the chapter as a whole? If we take Medb's path into account, I do think this was a pretty strong update. But at the same time, I don't think my initial response was invalid when you DON'T see Medb's extended content. IMHO, that's a mistake. I get that Medb is the Alfr LI and it makes sense an MC who is close to Medb would learn more about her and her people than MC's with a poor relationship with her, but the balance – both in terms of how much content is gated and points required to open the gate – is wrong.

To discuss this further, we're going to have to dig into the spoilers.

Spoiler: Chapter 5 - The Importance of Dating Medb

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Spoiler: Chapter 5 - Other Good Things

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Spoiler: Chapter 5 - Other Bad Things

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Alright, I think that roughly sums up my thoughts. To reiterate, there's a lot to love in the chapter and I do think it will age well as later chapters fill in some of the missing pieces and sand down the rough edges. But I am still a little frustrated at how uninquisitive the MC is when it matters, and I feel strongly that the unlocking requirements for a key scene needs to be relaxed.

tl;dr We get some great background material and a few good character moments, but the chapter is too dependent on Medb's path to be satisfying.

good boi, posting in the right thread this time Humor aside, great and informative post

 

[PaxHadrian17]

I've played through a decent chunk of Chapter 5. My initial response was very negative, partially because the transition from rescuing the MC's father to visiting Alfheimr was too sudden, but mostly because the time we spent with the Alfar felt relatively weightless. We definitely get a lot of great background on Alfar society in general, but we don't learn much about their relationship with humanity, we learn nothing about Medb, and the one character we do build a rapport with is sidelined by the cliffhanger.

The end result was equally unfulfilling on my next two run-throughs – I didn't have a Medb-focused save to test. Since it was pretty clear I'd missed something at the end of the chapter, however, I went back and tried to up my points with her to see what I could uncover. It took more effort than I expected before I finally unlocked Medb's scenes, but what a difference it made! It not only addressed a couple of my complaints head on, but it gave the whole chapter a much greater sense of cohesion and added a real sense of closure (if tragic) to the ending.

So how should I rate the chapter as a whole? If we take Medb's path into account, I do think this was a pretty strong update. But at the same time, I don't think my initial response was invalid when you DON'T see Medb's extended content. IMHO, that's a mistake. I get that Medb is the Alfr LI and it makes sense an MC who is close to Medb would learn more about her and her people than MC's with a poor relationship with her, but the balance – both in terms of how much content is gated and points required to open the gate – is wrong.

To discuss this further, we're going to have to dig into the spoilers.

Spoiler: Chapter 5 - The Importance of Dating Medb

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Spoiler: Chapter 5 - Other Good Things

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Spoiler: Chapter 5 - Other Bad Things

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Alright, I think that roughly sums up my thoughts. To reiterate, there's a lot to love in the chapter and I do think it will age well as later chapters fill in some of the missing pieces and sand down the rough edges. But I am still a little frustrated at how uninquisitive the MC is when it matters, and I feel strongly that the unlocking requirements for a key scene needs to be relaxed.

tl;dr We get some great background material and a few good character moments, but the chapter is too dependent on Medb's path to be satisfying.

My compliments - this is a very nicely thought out and delivered like/dislike/maybe change post!

It does not smear the dev and does talk honestly about the high points and some of the potentially low points of the chapter, depending on choices made.

Honestly, I am running 3 saves and only Kaija is left in the wind (kinda) where I am interested in rebuilding the friendship but would never try to rebuild a gf/bf or more serious relationship where, at least in my mind (and my choices as MC), her duty won over her choices to build a stronger more permanent relationship with MC.

My comments and feelings are based on the sum total of what I learned about the Alfar and Medb, courtesy of all paths taken and includes very high Medb points (16 out of 17) before Maviarab created his great walkthrough and I learned that calling Alfar women bitches Won me points...

(To my peril - I now understand that Medb will let this slide... Once... and I suspect a hand slap is Not the only thing she would do to me if I continued that line of description. )

I honestly did not consider how much less this chapter would seem to be for someone Not fully/near fully on the Medb path.

I can also see how Ceolag would likely miss this perspective since he is investing significant time creating paths he believes many of us will follow.

Spoiler: An alternate way to see the Daughter of the Sun scene

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I do have a love of certain tropes and, given that Medb says that the Templars murdered Finnabair, I am hoping that the MC can challenge and kill the Templar who murdered her.

I'd like to see him bring the Alfar the head of her murderer with the message that This Templar will never murder another Alfar.

(Admittedly - heroic justified revenge trope - so sue me )

Back to 'reality' , we know almost nothing about Finnabair's death (I figure the early part of CH 6 will address the specifics of what happened to Finnabair, Alfar perspective, when the MC is on his way out of Alfheimr and on the journey to Neverwhere.

For example, did the MC overshare in the video that was sent to the Templars explaining his trip, naming Finnabair in some fashion (and potentially putting a target on her back)?

What 'truth' we will learn from the Templars (who tells the MC what information and how they treat him when he returns) will help to better frame what happened to Finnabair, and why.

IMO - CH 5 has one of the best 1 chapter character arcs I've seen in an AVN.

This is based, OC, on my choice to pursue Medb and go with about 3.5 playthroughs (I did try other early Kaija options to see how callus/loving she could be) to see as much of the lore and choice options as are available.

I now understand how your choices, both points and path wise, left you with a different feeling about the overall chapter and the Finnabair story arc.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts - This is what a good discussion looks like on F95!

Cheers!!

 

[Maviarab]

I disagree with everything he said. Nothing needs changing....nothing is inexcusable. Just some ranting and trying to use fancy words to make themselves look smarter than they are. So he didn't like a few things, well boofuckinghoo. This is all just personal opinion on things he disliked or content that was not in that he wanted in. So there was no Kaija content, get over it.

At the moment, there actually is NO Medb path in reality and gaining the required amount of points to see the funeral is not all that difficult in reality (don't even need to max her points but, why wouldn't you try unless you wanted to be antagonistic towards her?) and does not neccessarily put you on her romance arc. You can always decline when the decision comes up at some point.

There is a PathLock flag and a FriendLockPath. There is no MedbPath=true flag yet.

Now, unless you are full on Tempars/forgive Kaija, why would you not want to be nice to Medb, Finn or any other elf at this point, especially when you realise the reasoning behind the kidnapping? Hell, even before you know the real reasons, you have gone there in peace to try and avert a catastrophe. Why would you not be going out of your way to gainer their favour?

The funeral being tied to Medb is perfect, because, it's her you're trying to get closer to and change opinion. Finn, for all her loveliness, is a throwaway character, that should have been immediately godamn obvious after the duel. She doesn't matter, she is largely in fact, utterly irrelevent. She is only relevent in how she ties to Medb, the actual important character in the story, in Alfheim and who you need to get closer to. So yes, it makes perfect sense the last scene is tied to her and not Finn.just like nearly every other interaction with Finn is actually tied to Medb.

 

[Kayleigh]

Alright guys....for those who prefer written to mod:

Walkthrough attached for v0-5-0

Edit: Now in OP. Thanks mods.

I found more, in chapter 5 you missed LP for Kate.

Morrisey's:

6. Don’t undersell yourself - has LPkate += 1

 

[Maviarab]

I found more, in chapter 5 you missed LP for Kate.

Morrisey's:

6. Don’t undersell yourself - has LPkate += 1

Damn you're right...thanks. Updating now.

Done.

 

[Ragnar]

I didn't know you can miss the funeral if you don't have Mebd score maxed out or almost. I had it anyway so I saw everything. But yes, gatekeeping content like that is not a wise idea. Use the points to gatekeep sex scenes and relationship shit if anything, not important story bits.
That's why I'm not a fan about relationship points in vns, you can't roleplay how you want because you have to tip toe around characters to max their scores
Oh no! You called me a bitch because I acted like a bitch, too bad honey, that's a -1 for you

 

[yossa999]

Oh no! You called me a bitch because I acted like a bitch, too bad honey, that's a -1 for you

Wut? Calling Medb a bitch was the last +RP I was looking for to maximize her score. She likes it rough.

 

[Ragnar]

Wut? Calling Medb a bitch was the last +RP I was looking for to maximize her score. She likes it rough.

I didn't use a walkthrough so I though it was -1 when she tells you about the bitch incident

 

[ename144]

I disagree with everything he said. Nothing needs changing....nothing is inexcusable. Just some ranting and trying to use fancy words to make themselves look smarter than they are. So he didn't like a few things, well boofuckinghoo. This is all just personal opinion on things he disliked or content that was not in that he wanted in. So there was no Kaija content, get over it.

At the moment, there actually is NO Medb path in reality and gaining the required amount of points to see the funeral is not all that difficult in reality (don't even need to max her points but, why wouldn't you try unless you wanted to be antagonistic towards her?) and does not neccessarily put you on her romance arc. You can always decline when the decision comes up at some point.

There is a PathLock flag and a FriendLockPath. There is no MedbPath=true flag yet.

Now, unless you are full on Tempars/forgive Kaija, why would you not want to be nice to Medb, Finn or any other elf at this point, especially when you realise the reasoning behind the kidnapping? Hell, even before you know the real reasons, you have gone there in peace to try and avert a catastrophe. Why would you not be going out of your way to gainer their favour?

The funeral being tied to Medb is perfect, because, it's her you're trying to get closer to and change opinion. Finn, for all her loveliness, is a throwaway character, that should have been immediately godamn obvious after the duel. She doesn't matter, she is largely in fact, utterly irrelevent. She is only relevent in how she ties to Medb, the actual important character in the story, in Alfheim and who you need to get closer to. So yes, it makes perfect sense the last scene is tied to her and not Finn.just like nearly every other interaction with Finn is actually tied to Medb.

Nope, I stand by my point. I was very nice to Medb, I just wasn't trying to get into her (or Finnabair's) pants. If not flirting with optional characters is going to gut the emotional climax of the chapter, that's a serious problem. I don't see how gating Finnabair's funeral to the declaration of friendship without 15+ Medb points would in any way diminish the game.

Treating a minor character as disposable simply because they're a minor character is precisely the wrong way to go about this.

I didn't know you can miss the funeral if you don't have Mebd score maxed out or almost. I had it anyway so I saw everything. But yes, gatekeeping content like that is not a wise idea. Use the points to gatekeep sex scenes and relationship shit if anything, not important story bits.
That's why I'm not a fan about relationship points in vns, you can't roleplay how you want because you have to tip toe around characters to max their scores
Oh no! You called me a bitch because I acted like a bitch, too bad honey, that's a -1 for you

Or in this case "Oh, you didn't call me a bitch just because I haven't acted like a bitch? Too bad honey, no plot point for you!"

 

[Tremonia]

But yes, gatekeeping content like that is not a wise idea. Use the points to gatekeep sex scenes and relationship shit if anything, not important story bits.

I've to disagree. MC lacks now a very important information: Finnabair was Medb's daughter. Without that knowledge his story can go a very different route towards Templars/Álfar problem and I'm very eager to see the outcome.

 

[Ragnar]

I've to disagree. MC lacks now a very important information: Finnabair was Medb's daughter. Without that knowledge his story can go a very different route towards Templars/Álfar problem and I'm very eager to see the outcome.

Was she? I though it was one of the elves at the funeral, the one who nods her head to you.

 

[Tremonia]

Was she? I though it was one of the elves at the funeral, the one who nods her head to you.

Yes, it's explicitely said.

 

[Ragnar]

Yes, it's explicitely said.

I must have missed that bit while I breezed through the update
I'm reading it from the beginning now to catch things up.

 

[Tremonia]

I must have missed that bit while I breezed through the update
I'm reading it from the beginning now to catch things up.

Listen to Medb when you're talking to her. She tells you some words of Ljósálfar language and with them you understand the ceremony in the end.

 

[Maviarab]

Listen to Medb when you're talking to her. She tells you some words of Ljósálfar language and with them you understand the ceremony in the end.

Or people could actually 'read' the 'novel' part of a VN and not just...blow through it...then wonder why they don't understand stuff....

 

[Kayleigh]

Or people could actually 'read' the 'novel' part of a VN and not just...blow through it...then wonder why they don't understand stuff....

Or the fact that Medb should invite a person to such an emotional event she doesn't like or trusts.

 

[xapican]

I must have missed that bit while I breezed through the update
I'm reading it from the beginning now to catch things up.

It is implied in what Medb say's , plus it is said in Alfar language. a bit dificult to notice.

 

[Elduriel]

Listen to Medb when you're talking to her. She tells you some words of Ljósálfar language and with them you understand the ceremony in the end.

and the actual translation is included in the script
med_w "Namaari, min ethiram ainu." #Farewell, my beloved daughter.

 

[ename144]

I've to disagree. MC lacks now a very important information: Finnabair was Medb's daughter. Without that knowledge his story can go a very different route towards Templars/Álfar problem and I'm very eager to see the outcome.

Even if that's true, it just calls further attention to how shallow the MC's actions were absent sweet-talking Medb. We spend all this time with Finnabair but somehow she never bothers to mention we've already met her mother? That feels less like a "friend" and more like someone you met at a business conference.

EDIT:
Also, just before we get too far down this rabbit hole, I should point out we might be jumping at shadows. The achievement for the scene is titled "Daughter of the Sun;" presumably we aren't meant to take that literally. It's entirely possible Medb was speaking metaphorically; that was my initial take when I finally saw the scene.

That said, if Medb is Finnabair's biological daughter it would explain a few otherwise curious details, so I'm inclined to believe it now that I think about it.