Ren'Py The Null Hypothesis [v0.8c] [Ron Chon]

[The_Man_With_No_Name]

Thanks, I was tempted to do that as well to check. I could have sworn I had a play through in the previous version were I was able to speed through Fall and start Winter before the MC even showed up on the leader boards. Oh well, I'm sure all this stuff is still in flux and there will be a balancing update once they've worked through most of the bugs.

Yeah on trust for the old it was around 120 where on the new it was around 60 for example.

The love nerf is fine because there are a lot of sources for it, but trust getting a nerf is pretty rough.

 

[FP00]

No. I'm pretty sure they nerfed the point gain for love/trust. I just made a file on the older build skipping threw and picking all of the same choices until the end of day 5 and it was almost double the points on the same day on a current build save.

Yeah, it seems love/trust gains were massively reduced.

First beta build, I began to struggle as I couldn't meet objective thresholds after I exhausted available options, even with picking the most optimal option in dialogue. I console commanded myself cash to get all the gifts to test if it is now intended to use gifts to pass thresholds, but that barely put me in threshold range for the first year. I didn't test dating love/trust gains as I wanted to see how much you could gain just through quests, as well as the fact that I just couldn't build love and trust high enough without grind. This could make platonic playthroughs extremely difficult.

Yeah on the old it was around 120 where on the new it was around 60 on trust for example.

The love nerf is fine because there are a lot of sources for it, but trust getting a nerf is pretty rough.

Kinda, love gains began not pushing me past thresholds past the mid point of chapter 1, especially after I exhausted gifts, it's less noticeable in the first half due to love thresholds being relatively low.

Trust is a complete nightmare to grind, though, due to Trust thresholds being a lot higher and the extremely small gains.

While I am fine with goals taking longer to achieve over the course of chapter 1, there needs to be certain events (like end of chapter ones), activities or gifts with larger love/trust gains (or at least moderate repeatable ones) so that platonic playthroughs can actually progress, and grind is at a minimum.

Of course, if this is only a beta caveat, then my point is meaningless.

 

[Karmadive]

No. I'm pretty sure they nerfed the point gain for love/trust. I just made a file on the older build skipping threw and picking all of the same choices until the end of day 5 and it was almost double the points on the same day on a current build save.

quick search in code and the original values for increases came up with I believe..

define massive_stat = 50
define large_stat = 25
define medium_stat = 10
define small_stat = 5
define tiny_stat = 2

new ones are

define massive_stat = 25
define large_stat = 10
define medium_stat = 5
define small_stat = 2
define tiny_stat = 1

So just a tiny bit more then half the amount of points given for some of them.

 

[The_Man_With_No_Name]

quick search in code and the original values for increases came up with I believe..

define massive_stat = 50
define large_stat = 25
define medium_stat = 10
define small_stat = 5
define tiny_stat = 2

new ones are

define massive_stat = 25
define large_stat = 10
define medium_stat = 5
define small_stat = 2
define tiny_stat = 1

Yeah, about half looks right for how things are now. Though there are things always modifying those values up or down. Like in old build getting 7 points or 14.

 

[The_Man_With_No_Name]

Kinda, love gains began not pushing me past thresholds past the mid point of chapter 1, especially after I exhausted gifts, it's less noticeable in the first half due to love thresholds being relatively low.

You could get like 10pts a day in old build just by saying good morning, how are you, and giving a complement. Combined with dialogue in events and gifts it adds up. I know, still grindy, but not too painful compared to trust.
Trust your best bet is to keep doing things like training with them.

 

[Karmadive]

Yeah, about half looks right for how things are now. Though there are things always modifying those values up or down. Like in old build getting 7 points or 14.

Yep doing a quick check and the things modifying haven't changed as well as the thresholds for relationship stuff. money gained are the same and the XP needed to level up is the same.

Could be wrong as it's a beta and some values might not be currently used by the game, or not adjusted yet.

 

[The_Man_With_No_Name]

Yep doing a quick check and the things modifying haven't changed as well as the thresholds for relationship stuff. money gained are the same and the XP needed to level up is the same.

Could be wrong as it's a beta and some values might not be currently used by the game, or not adjusted yet.

Xp is perfectly balanced when you consider the full scope of the game. There is only so much you can buy so money isn't really a big bottleneck. And even with a love nerf, I can squint and see it working with either being super on top of point gains and maybe using perks, or just excepting that relationship things will happen toward the end of spring or in summer.

But trust...I regret not buying the 200pt trust gain power up in the achievements. Oh well, it's a good thing that like in Elder Scrolls I have achieved Chim.(can edit values)

Trust definitely needs a look at. Since it's calculated at the same rate as love, then adding more sources of trust or something.

 

[Karmadive]

Xp is perfectly balanced when you consider the full scope of the game. There is only so much you can buy so money isn't really a big bottleneck. And even with a love nerf, I can squint and see it working with either being super on top of point gains and maybe using perks, or just excepting that relationship things will happen toward the end of spring or in summer.

But trust...I regret not buying the 200pt trust gain power up in the achievements. Oh well, it's a good thing that like in Elder Scrolls I have achieved Chim.(can edit values)

Trust definitely needs a look at. Since it's calculated at the same rate as love, then adding more sources of trust or something.

Yep Trust was the only stat I struggled gaining with before the Beta, well not struggle but felt it was just a bit too slow compared to the others.

EDIT:

Love almost felt like it came a bit too quickly at some points and too slow in others so felt about right for me.

Money I felt came a bit too quickly sometimes, might have been the way I played tho. Worked everyday I could.

Friendship was just kind there, being a tiny bit annoying but not too in the way for Chapter one.

XP I felt stalled out after a bit and given the foumla made sense, guessing we get increased XP activities each Chapter which makes sense.

 

[JustCallMeSteve]

Ron on the discord had mentioned that the 'nerf' was because of private beta testers commenting that they felt the points increased too quickly.

This is paraphrasing of course.

 

[The_Man_With_No_Name]

Yep Trust was the only stat I struggled gaining with before the Beta, well not struggle but felt it was just a bit too slow compared to the others.

Of course our age old "friend" friend points still looms. Variable starting rating between characters, more sources or modified rate of gain will still be needed or Null will go crazy trying to figure out how each of the 3 ch1 characters will get points with ch2 so 9 new in total.

 

[JLucci]

Started over with the 3rd version of the beta and it seems to have changed since v1. Day 4 and I've already got the 125 trust for Rouge's friendship side quest.

Edit: Just finished the day and her side quest is already done.

 

[The_Man_With_No_Name]

Started over with the 3rd version of the beta and it seems to have changed since v1. Day 4 and I've already got the 125 trust for Rouge's friendship side quest.

Thanks. I didn't see a new post, but now I see that he edited the old one with a new download. Will check it out.

 

[The_Man_With_No_Name]

quick search in code and the original values for increases came up with I believe..

define massive_stat = 50
define large_stat = 25
define medium_stat = 10
define small_stat = 5
define tiny_stat = 2

new ones are

define massive_stat = 25
define large_stat = 10
define medium_stat = 5
define small_stat = 2
define tiny_stat = 1

So just a tiny bit more then half the amount of points given for some of them.

Looks like he reverted the values back in beta3. I'll agree that love does go up pretty quick if you know what to look for to up it, but if it's tied to the same base as trust, then better to leave it unless more trust sources are added.

 

[FP00]

You could get like 10pts a day in old build just by saying good morning, how are you, and giving a complement. Combined with dialogue in events and gifts it adds up. I know, still grindy, but not too painful compared to trust.
Trust your best bet is to keep doing things like training with them.

Meant in the first beta build, seemed like I could only manage around six love at best with that method, and that is with picking optimal options.

Again, it isn't as bad as trust due to lower thresholds but once you reach past the mid point and you're trying to reach high love values it can become a chore at least in the first beta build.

In general even beyond the beta I feel Love and Trust need larger gains in the big events or gifts, with some tweaking in the minor ones just to reduce grind and make the end-of-chapter events a bit more meaningful to reach or the big gifts to buy.

Ron on the discord had mentioned that the 'nerf' was because of private beta testers commenting that they felt the points increased too quickly.

This is paraphrasing of course.

While I can see the logic, it's kinda painful in regard to Trust gains.

Of course our age old "friend" friend points still looms. Variable starting rating between characters, more sources or modified rate of gain will still be needed or Null will go crazy trying to figure out how each of the 3 ch1 characters will get points with ch2 so 9 new in total.

Honestly, the only problem with friend points I had is getting all the characters to stay in one room, which will probably get easier once more activities get added.

 

[Karmadive]

Beta 3 stats increases are

Spoiler: 0.8c Beta 3 Stat increase values

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Closer to the original values just taking a bit off the biggest increases, which I'm cool with.

Feel like this might be an instance of being cautious of jumping the gun on beta tester feedback, especially if the pool of testers is not that large and for a mechanic present in the game for a long time already as is.

EDIT: But then this is also the beta....my head.... tired. Been playing Borderlands 4 too much lately lol

 

[Zharost]

Is the I Studied the Blade achievement broken or am I just not understanding how to get it? It's Fall, I friendzoned Jean and Rogue when to avoid their first dates (and haven't even unlocked the hookup option), and I postponed advancing the story until a Friday while I was at the top of the combat leaderboard so that when Juggernaut attacks the mansion, it's a Saturday and the leaderboard winners are locked in. Am I illiterate and missing something obvious?

 

[The_Man_With_No_Name]

Honestly, the only problem with friend points I had is getting all the characters to stay in one room, which will probably get easier once more activities get added.

9 in ch2 18 in ch3 etc while still needing to stay up on 3 new love/trust per chapter. I don't know. I'll have to see how things are by 1.1 to get a clear picture on more points or sources, but variable starting friend ratings is also just good for narrative. Kitty starting friendlier with people and Emma starting more antagonistic etc.

Closer to the original values just taking a bit off the biggest increases, which I'm cool with.

Feel like this might be an instance of being cautious of jumping the gun on beta tester feedback, especially if the pool of testers is not that large and for a mechanic present in the game for a long time already as is.

As long as trust is tied to love for base calculating, people need to be specific about what "too quick" means and whether they mean love or trust since even though they are tied to the same base, the amount of sources is very different.

 

[Karmadive]

As long as trust is tied to love people need to be specific about what "too quick" means and whether they mean love or trust since even though they are tied to the same base, the amount of sources is very different.

Yeah I feel like it would be easier to separate the stat increase values for love and trust so you can adjust one without it affecting the other one.

Heck maybe add a slider/toggle in the menu to adjust stat progression for people who want to take it slow versus people who want to fly through the game.

EDIT: tho guess it already does have one with "Cap stats by season" toggle. so people can use that if they feel they are progressing too quickly

 

[The_Man_With_No_Name]

Yeah I feel like it would be easier to separate the stat increase values for love and trust so you can adjust one without it affecting the other one.

Heck maybe add a slider/toggle in the menu to adjust stat progression for people who want to take it slow versus people who want to fly through the game.

Yes to the first but the second would be too much effort vs what's probably needed. Cool if it's in though since it will always be hard to find a balance between those who want hell grinds or have already mapped out their optimal schedule and those who want little to no grind.

Honestly, just nerf love points halfway between pre beta and beta1 or just lower the low numbers and for trust up it slightly on the lower numbers since that's what's going to be called on when you train with people.

 

[ShinyBoots1993]

Sorry in advance if this has been brought up before and I'm dementiaing over it, but is there a chance you could include a "select chapter" option from the main menu for those who'd rather skip over certain things and provide a basic blanket character history as filler for what's not done in previous chapters? Like what Mity has going on in 4ET. This way it won't be that hard to swallow if you fellas have to do another back room adjustment that makes saves incompatible.

It's been mentioned a few times. I think we'll definitely need to implement one once we get a few chapters in.

Awesome, I'll pay a billion for Teresa Orlowski sprites.
Joking aside, if they do this shit, I see this games will go down the drain.

None of the characters will be included in the game by Ron. Their assets will also be publicly available for modders. It's a win/win for everyone involved.

The art budget seems to be one of the biggest hold ups for getting new content and sounds like this would really help shore up some more funding.

This is fact and would indeed assist us.

That and it might bring more people around to make mods for the game.

People are already messing around with available assets so this is already proven to be true.

It's like a stereotype made logos, then flesh

I'm only more confused.

While I am fine with goals taking longer to achieve over the course of chapter 1, there needs to be certain events (like end of chapter ones), activities or gifts with larger love/trust gains (or at least moderate repeatable ones) so that platonic playthroughs can actually progress, and grind is at a minimum.

All of this is true and is being taken into account.

There are plans for more events and activities and increases to platonic interactions.

Honestly, the only problem with friend points I had is getting all the characters to stay in one room, which will probably get easier once more activities get added.

And more activities you shall have.

Again, we are in active development. A lot of balancing is done with the mindset that this will be a 5 chapter game. Things will be tweaked and altered to make the experience more satisfactory.

A relationship will always be able to be established the chapter a girl is introduced as a romantic interest. However the story doesn't end once she becomes your girlfriend. She'll have content for every chapter remaining in the narrative with some stuff happening even after its conclusion. The chapter 5 girls will definitely be needing some extra content.