VN Ren'Py The Roommate [v0.11.11] [togs]

[Vleder]

I'm at work right now, so don't have time to post all the links here until this evening, but they're on

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.

If I was your boss I'd give you a raise anyhow, just because this update is really good.

 

[FatGiant]

Ah... now I need to wait for the mod. Breathe, Fat, Breathe...



Peace

 

[Emelex]

I decompiled and edited the functions.rpy bugfix file released on Patreon. It won't work without the JokerMod folder from his WT mod in your game directory. But if you have it, the game will subtly warn you whether or not wanking will cause a game over screen. I'll probably soon get to work on finishing a new update for my WT+ mod, which I started when v0.8.2 was released to testers, but I didn't want to release it until the next public update came out.

 

[togs-games]

Mods are for pussies.

 

[Emelex]

Mods are for pussies.

Ouch.

 

[FatGiant]

Mods are for pussies.

I wish they'd come with one... or two...

(Not only do I have to wait, and now I have to wait horny... bro, not cool :: Frustrated Sigh :: )

Peace

 

[Zenae]

Mods are for pussies.

Incoming in-game joke about that?

 

[togs-games]

Ah... now I need to wait for the mod.

Seriously, though, why? What's the concern?

 

[FatGiant]

Seriously, though, why? What's the concern?

I've been burned with ambiguous choices. I hate to play blind. Can't enjoy it, I'll be second guessing each and every decision.

Sorry. But many devs instead of making a game for us to play, they make themselves a game to play with us. Some people enjoy that, that's OK, I simply detest it. Not to mention the unpleasant surprises from choices made 35 screens before that suddenly just make you simply delete the whole thing. So, whenever there is a Walkthrough mod, I don't play without it. I can make an exception or other for Devs that were able to win my trust.

We, me and you, aren't there yet.

So far, I do like your game. With the mod I feel comfortable that I know where it is going. Without it, not at all.

This isn't a critique of your work, it is a consequence of some bad apples. To be honest I would love that all Devs would make their own walkthrough, making it optional on the Preferences. It would give us a clear view of your vision for the game, a kind of Director's Cut, so to speak. This is NOT a request, just a pipe dream.

Was I clear enough? Not too honest to the point of being offensive? I hope I didn't.

Peace

 

[togs-games]

That's a more reasoned response than a lot of others I've heard! My first response is play the game, don't game the game.

While it isn't without its flaws, and there are things I would have done differently with the benefit of hindsight, I think it's reasonable within its own strange take on the world.

There's no winning or losing. There's no "right way" to play. There are very few irrevocable choices you could make and I think they would be clear enough and in at least one case (saying no to Kari) you are absolutely warned something's a game-changer.

It's also true that it's far from complete, so nothing is out of the question at this stage. I've mentioned this before, but let's examine Ashley. Assuming you frequent the coffee shop regularly and tip her well, she proposes a sugar baby arrangement. You can turn that down and the later option to bring her in as a legal assistant keeps her potentially available.

Likewise, you can only choose two receptionists, plus an optional intern and the flight attendant. But in the latest version, Lois wants more staff and (lo and behold) the girls you passed on previously are back in the mix (along with some new options). Down the line, once their story's been told some of the reception staff (for example) will move on, allowing another opportunity to shuffle the deck, so to speak.

As I was putting this version together, I made a point to go way back and check for inconsistencies if a player chose NOT to pursue relationships with Kari and/or Lois (which I'd really always assumed they would). Certainly in the near future the possibility of having Kari move out (or even someone else move in) will be properly catered for.

I put in the option to add a note to a save to encourage people to explore different options and I really feel like walkthrough mods push you down a certain path based on what is almost an incomplete understanding of the mechanics of the game.

That's why I very deliberately chose to "hide" the stats - what you (or a mod) might think they mean aren't necessarily the way I view them. Variables like slutty or submissive mean very different things when applied to different characters and become of less consequence as relationships develop anyway.

I'm a first-time developer (at least of something like this). I've made enough mistakes and problems for myself to keep me busy enough, but I've slowly learned what kinds of things are more or less likely to be problems.

But it feels like half the discussion here is to deal with problems caused by mods and it's like I'm banging my head against a wall, to the extent that there are times I want to walk away from it (the discussion, not the making of the game). To be honest, if I could break off and have an "official" topic that completely excluded mods I'd do it in a heartbeat.

I think I'm pretty accessible. It's not like I won't give you the answer (or at least a heavy hint) if you have a question.

And one final thought: when you talk to actors they'll often tell you how much fun it is when they're cast against type. People are often inconsistent, inconsiderate, or thoughtless - when I play the game as the "nice guy" I still make a point of telling Kari her food wasn't that great which I'm sure a walkthrough mod would advise against!

Okay, I've gone on long enough, I suppose I should get back to Lois or Emelex will be doubly pissed off at me!

 

[FatGiant]

That's a more reasoned response than a lot of others I've heard! My first response is play the game, don't game the game.

While it isn't without its flaws, and there are things I would have done differently with the benefit of hindsight, I think it's reasonable within its own strange take on the world.

There's no winning or losing. There's no "right way" to play. There are very few irrevocable choices you could make and I think they would be clear enough and in at least one case (saying no to Kari) you are absolutely warned something's a game-changer.

It's also true that it's far from complete, so nothing is out of the question at this stage. I've mentioned this before, but let's examine Ashley. Assuming you frequent the coffee shop regularly and tip her well, she proposes a sugar baby arrangement. You can turn that down and the later option to bring her in as a legal assistant keeps her potentially available.

Likewise, you can only choose two receptionists, plus an optional intern and the flight attendant. But in the latest version, Lois wants more staff and (lo and behold) the girls you passed on previously are back in the mix (along with some new options). Down the line, once their story's been told some of the reception staff (for example) will move on, allowing another opportunity to shuffle the deck, so to speak.

As I was putting this version together, I made a point to go way back and check for inconsistencies if a player chose NOT to pursue relationships with Kari and/or Lois (which I'd really always assumed they would). Certainly in the near future the possibility of having Kari move out (or even someone else move in) will be properly catered for.

I put in the option to add a note to a save to encourage people to explore different options and I really feel like walkthrough mods push you down a certain path based on what is almost an incomplete understanding of the mechanics of the game.

That's why I very deliberately chose to "hide" the stats - what you (or a mod) might think they mean aren't necessarily the way I view them. Variables like slutty or submissive mean very different things when applied to different characters and become of less consequence as relationships develop anyway.

I'm a first-time developer (at least of something like this). I've made enough mistakes and problems for myself to keep me busy enough, but I've slowly learned what kinds of things are more or less likely to be problems.

But it feels like half the discussion here is to deal with problems caused by mods and it's like I'm banging my head against a wall, to the extent that there are times I want to walk away from it (the discussion, not the making of the game). To be honest, if I could break off and have an "official" topic that completely excluded mods I'd do it in a heartbeat.

I think I'm pretty accessible. It's not like I won't give you the answer (or at least a heavy hint) if you have a question.

And one final thought: when you talk to actors they'll often tell you how much fun it is when they're cast against type. People are often inconsistent, inconsiderate, or thoughtless - when I play the game as the "nice guy" I still make a point of telling Kari her food wasn't that great which I'm sure a walkthrough mod would advise against!

Okay, I've gone on long enough, I suppose I should get back to Lois or Emelex will be doubly pissed off at me!

Thank you so much for this.

For the answer, and for understanding what I had to say.

It is a question of mindset, that makes me use a WT mod. I don't even always follow the recommended path if I don't really agree with it, consequences be damned.

For example, I also choose to be honest with Kari. I don't even know what the WT says.

But therein lies the issue, I ALWAYS play as the "nice guy". Otherwise I can't enjoy the connection with the character. Being nice, is always relative. I detest the domination games. I detest humiliation games. I may try them to see how far things go, but if I'm placed as an absolute prick without any choice, that "game" goes away along with any saves. I'm NOT talking about your game.

I tried your game when I first saw it. Fell instantly for Kari and for Lois. For different reasons. From that moment on I can't play without a WT because I don't want to risk making a blind choice that would make them leave. I don't care much for min/max stats, I care a LOT for not being blindsided as I've been in many occasions.

Thank you very much for opening yourself to this discussion, I see that it is a sore subject and that you're also burned by people that have a very different view of this. Modders aren't infallible, I believe that they have good intentions, but, sometimes that isn't enough.

I prefer mods that enhance the game, not mods that "replace" the game, but I can't always choose can I? That's why I mentioned the built-in walkthrough. Mostly, I want to have more and more information while making a choice, hopefully removing the feel of blindness and ambiguity. I don't want to mess with variables or scenes, I want to know what a choice means, truly. So, I don't want to game your game, I want to feel confident that I am the Player and not the Played.

In most cases, all choices in these games are voided of any information. Most of the times they are worded badly or have no context. Many times they are an illusion of choice. Other times they masquerade has "just another choice" while locking content. All that is what makes me choose a WT. I'm not (yet) capable of going into the code and finding out by myself, so, I rely on people that can read it and tell me what's going on when the game isn't clear about it.

Please, don't take the view that I am dissing on your work when I choose to mod your game, I am simply trying to play your game with a higher degree of confidence that I will NOT have nasty surprises. That's it. That's all there is to it. That's the same feeling I have with seat belts and car and home insurance. Neither are a comment on the quality of the car or of the house.

Thanks.

Peace

 

[Vleder]

I've been burned with ambiguous choices. I hate to play blind. Can't enjoy it, I'll be second guessing each and every decision.
Sorry. But many devs instead of making a game for us to play, they make themselves a game to play with us. Some people enjoy that, that's OK, I simply detest it. Not to mention the unpleasant surprises from choices made 35 screens before that suddenly just make you simply delete the whole thing. So, whenever there is a Walkthrough mod, I don't play without it. I can make an exception or other for Devs that were able to win my trust.

Brilliant answer! What else is there to argue?

I put in the option to add a note to a save to encourage people to explore different options and I really feel like walkthrough mods push you down a certain path based on what is almost an incomplete understanding of the mechanics of the game.
That's why I very deliberately chose to "hide" the stats - what you (or a mod) might think they mean aren't necessarily the way I view them. Variables like slutty or submissive mean very different things when applied to different characters and become of less consequence as relationships develop anyway.

Totally agree and totally disagree!
I hate mods that present a green choice and I've stopped using those just as I've tried them. I prefer to enter the dev's mindset and guess the effects of the choice I'm making. The problem with that is that most dev's (I'm measuring my words) don't have any significant writing skills and can't resist the idea of toying with players and luring them into traps.
I know you're not a "heavy gamer" like some of us and you're not exactly laying traps in The Roommate but you know I've been pestering you forever about thresholds and that we disagree on a few things.
Let's consider two simple examples: Kari's background story and Ashley's rewards. I believe that players that play freely or casually tend to balance choices and players that are experimenting tend to concentrate choices. If you play casually (at least in earlier versions of the game) you have a significant risk of Kari not sharing her story due to lack of confidence and missing Ashley's complete sex scene just because you didn't go to the café and tip her every single time! And there would be more examples, like Lois unbuttoning her shirt or not... This is one way players can feel less rewarded and have an unpleasant gaming experience.
Now, to be completely fair, I don't exactly believe a mod would solve this problem and you are right about the possibility of a mod leading players down a wrong path (there are many examples) or down a path that would be unsuitable for them (I believe there would be many more).
Also, to make it perfectly clear, I think The Roommate is very well written and that you have made it better with some revisions and options presented. I wouldn't be supporting if I didn't feel that way. This is just a sincere contribution for your understanding of how players go about choices and feel about rewards.

In my experience, in most cases, playing with a good information tool enhances gaming experience. If that enhancement comes from a WT mod, that's debatable. I confess that whenever I can, I peek at the script or use a tool like URM, which is really useful. I prefer to know about the changes I'm choosing and generally feel bad about hidden stats. My experience tells me those are more often then not use to punish players than to reward them accordingly... So in this light, a good WT mod enhances gaming experience and that's why players prefer them (and sorry in advance Emelex if I said anything that seems to go against your work because I never used your mod and don't know what kind of playing information it presents).

Edit: thanks to gregers for the good laugh! Unbuttering corrected for unbuttoning. Were you thinking about Marlon Brando in Paris?

 

[gregers]

Let's consider two simple examples: Kari's background story and Ashley's rewards. I believe that players that play freely or casually tend to balance choices and players that are experimenting tend to concentrate choices. If you play casually (at least in earlier versions of the game) you have a significant risk of Kari not sharing her story due to lack of confidence and missing Ashley's complete sex scene just because you didn't go to the café and tip her every single time! And there would be more examples, like Lois unbuttering her shirt or not... This is one way players can feel less rewarded and have an unpleasant gaming experience.

I've never heard Kari's backstory, but I'll accept that that is a consequence of my play style and only becomes a problem if later events in the story presuppose that the player is familiar with it. On the other hand, I'm very curious about this unbuttering I seem to have missed out on.


(I almost always read along in the script when playing ren'py games, for several reasons. For one I rarely play through more than one path but might be interested to skim through what happens down the roads not travelled. For another a lot of ren'py devs are not aces at legible user design, and reading a text file is easier on my eyes. But I'm always aware that I'm not quite playing as the dev intended.)

Edit: thanks to gregers for the good laugh! Unbuttering corrected for unbuttoning. Were you thinking about Marlon Brando in Paris?

I'm never not thinking about that. Only way I can finish.

 

[Vleder]

I've never heard Kari's backstory, but I'll accept that that is a consequence of my play style and only becomes a problem if later events in the story presuppose that the player is familiar with it. On the other hand, I'm very curious about this unbuttering I seem to have missed out on.

I corrected my post. She loosen the shirt not the... butter.
This just might go down the drain really fast!

 

[togs-games]

You'll find it was Lois that did the unbuttering!

And now that's been mentioned, I can't stop thinking about it.

Lois: "Wow, MC, your cum's so sweet - I can't believe it's not butter."

Moving on, or returning I should say, to the discussion...

I'm not looking to "play" people or (mis)lead them into traps, or whatever, so to some extent I feel like if the choices presented aren't clear I've failed. Or perhaps people using mods feels like a crticism, I don't know how to explain it better than that.

On the other hand, I hope I'm surprising you guys now and again, but in a good way.

Vleder, I thought we did sort that out, although I recall there being some confusion at some point. We'll talk again.

Once again, I'll repeat this is a first attempt at one of these, and there's no end in sight, so everything is subject to change.

 

[MrD812]

I've been burned with ambiguous choices. I hate to play blind. Can't enjoy it, I'll be second guessing each and every decision.

Sorry. But many devs instead of making a game for us to play, they make themselves a game to play with us. Some people enjoy that, that's OK, I simply detest it. Not to mention the unpleasant surprises from choices made 35 screens before that suddenly just make you simply delete the whole thing. So, whenever there is a Walkthrough mod, I don't play without it. I can make an exception or other for Devs that were able to win my trust.

We, me and you, aren't there yet.

So far, I do like your game. With the mod I feel comfortable that I know where it is going. Without it, not at all.

This isn't a critique of your work, it is a consequence of some bad apples. To be honest I would love that all Devs would make their own walkthrough, making it optional on the Preferences. It would give us a clear view of your vision for the game, a kind of Director's Cut, so to speak. This is NOT a request, just a pipe dream.

Was I clear enough? Not too honest to the point of being offensive? I hope I didn't.

Peace

Can fully relate with alot of Your perspectives here.
Specially and not exclusively when testing titles, not particularly always for myself.
Not singling out this Dev or ANY for that matter.

However, MANY Developers have been well beyond ambiguous with choices AND their titles.
With or without intent, is irrelevant to cause and effect.
There are several titles and their Dev's not being as forthcoming:

Acting Lessons
Stranded Dick
Summer Scent

And the lists go on.

Agree with Your apprehension's.
Within several respects.
Especially when time is a factor.

 

[Vleder]

You'll find it was Lois that did the unbuttering!
And now that's been mentioned, I can't stop thinking about it.
Lois: "Wow, MC, your cum's so sweet - I can't believe it's not butter."

Go on, go on, I guess I deserve that, in a way (I could just say I had it coming, but I won't).

I'm not looking to "play" people or (mis)lead them into traps, or whatever, so to some extent I feel like if the choices presented aren't clear I've failed. Or perhaps people using mods feels like a crticism, I don't know how to explain it better than that.

Well, you can't say I'm buttering you up. Ha!
Seriously, now, don't feel bad about it. People usually prefer guides and WT and that's the reality now, for everything. Just consider this. When I was young and I was playing games on my Spectrum, I had to wait till Thursday and use a fair share of my miserly weekly allowance to buy the newspaper and get the pokes and codes to unblock really unforgiving games. It's been here since the beginning of times, it has just assumed a new form. Gee, I'm old.

I don't think you've failed and the choices are clear but everyone navigates choices their own way. I dedicate more time to the things I'm passionate about. So, if anything, I would just encourage you to keep going just as you been. And then I'll always share my opinion when I feel it can be useful.

 

[FatGiant]

Go on, go on, I guess I deserve that, in a way (I could just say I had it coming, but I won't).


Well, you can't say I'm buttering you up. Ha!
Seriously, now, don't feel bad about it. People usually prefer guides and WT and that's the reality now, for everything. Just consider this. When I was young and I was playing games on my Spectrum, I had to wait till Thursday and use a fair share of my miserly weekly allowance to buy the newspaper and get the pokes and codes to unblock really unforgiving games. It's been here since the beginning of times, it has just assumed a new form. Gee, I'm old.

I don't think you've failed and the choices are clear but everyone navigates choices their own way. I dedicate more time to the things I'm passionate about. So, if anything, I would just encourage you to keep going just as you been. And then I'll always share my opinion when I feel it can be useful.

My father's basement caught fire a few years ago, that was the end of my magazines, newspapers, cassettes, cassette player and of my adored Spectrum. Along with my large collection of vinyl's, farewell friends. Oh the codes, the codes... Pages and pages.

Damn I'm old as dust.

Peace

 

[togs-games]

I won't criticize - my first machine was a ZX81!

That was sold as the Timex-Sinclair TS1000 in the US, I believe.

 

[tripod70]

Me either. I brought FatGiant the dust...