Alwiane
Newbie
- Jun 2, 2021
- 60
- 34
I'm not a fan of AI either. But its necessary evil. I cant afford an artist nor am I good at it myself. If I take random images from the web, there will no consistency in the art, so I'm using this as a last resort. If this project takes off, Once I can afford it, I would be open to hiring some artists to redo the art for the whole game retrospectively.This sounds interesting
Mercedes
Active Member
- Nov 19, 2017
- 904
- 1,288
Personally, I can't understand all the AI hatred.
Of course, hand-drawn images wouldn't be bad, but then we end up with everything from the images of a five-year-old to elaborate drawings ala Luis Royo. I would prefer the latter, but no normal developer can afford that, and someone who can draw like that is unlikely to be able or willing to write decent stories.
Then there's the alternative of DAZ or manga-style uniformity.
I prefer a continuous build of AI images. As long as you don't use pre-made images, like those used in all the AI-NTR games, this is a good alternative for presenting the project in an appealing way, because nobody wants just text.
Of course, hand-drawn images wouldn't be bad, but then we end up with everything from the images of a five-year-old to elaborate drawings ala Luis Royo. I would prefer the latter, but no normal developer can afford that, and someone who can draw like that is unlikely to be able or willing to write decent stories.
Then there's the alternative of DAZ or manga-style uniformity.
I prefer a continuous build of AI images. As long as you don't use pre-made images, like those used in all the AI-NTR games, this is a good alternative for presenting the project in an appealing way, because nobody wants just text.
Okay, here's some constructive criticism. You do not need 10 pages of text before the player is finally given a choice. You can summarize everything there much more succinctly, especially since a lot of it does get repeated either before, or after. Some of the parts seem to be foreshadowing later parts, or outright summarizing them, but then you go and do them out in the present tense anyway, which means there's a lot of fat that could be cut.
Next, the choices should have their text rewritten. Many currently read as if they're supposed to be a part of a dialogue tree, yet they progress the game anyway. This makes it feel as if important information is just being skipped since you can only talk about one subject before the game continues, requiring either liberal use of the rewind button, or save-scumming, neither of which are great. I'm assuming you don't want to implement a dialogue tree, so just making it clear that you can only pick one of these choices would be good.
As for the writing, I am almost certain there was a lot of AI assistance in writing it. Not only are there plenty of giveaways if you can recognise the patterns AI tends to rely upon, but even if a human did write it, the dialogue comes off as being very bizarre when characters describe everything from a personal experience. They'll say "I was raped", then they would go on to describe the experience in vivid detail, despite not being asked and supposedly being traumatised by it.
I know from experience that writing and programming both take a long time, and if you just want to use this to learn Twine, then that's fine. I just wanted to bring these points up because they really stand out.
Next, the choices should have their text rewritten. Many currently read as if they're supposed to be a part of a dialogue tree, yet they progress the game anyway. This makes it feel as if important information is just being skipped since you can only talk about one subject before the game continues, requiring either liberal use of the rewind button, or save-scumming, neither of which are great. I'm assuming you don't want to implement a dialogue tree, so just making it clear that you can only pick one of these choices would be good.
As for the writing, I am almost certain there was a lot of AI assistance in writing it. Not only are there plenty of giveaways if you can recognise the patterns AI tends to rely upon, but even if a human did write it, the dialogue comes off as being very bizarre when characters describe everything from a personal experience. They'll say "I was raped", then they would go on to describe the experience in vivid detail, despite not being asked and supposedly being traumatised by it.
I know from experience that writing and programming both take a long time, and if you just want to use this to learn Twine, then that's fine. I just wanted to bring these points up because they really stand out.
I am not entirely sure what you consider to be fat, The foreshadowing part is deliberate, Some examples would be helpful, I am open to learning and making the necessary changes if it makes the project better.
In the next update, I'm planning on visually changing a few things, the choices will be a part of it. I agree, it is not at its best currently, I will may be add a 'save here' kind of note in important decisions so that the player can save and come back if they prefer to.
Regarding the character explaining them being assaulted, yes, that is a deliberate choice too, may be it did not come off the way I intended it to, but that is definitely not AI written. I don't know of any AI pages which would depict the act of rape. Most AIs have strict regulations around it as far as I know. Most of the things that might come off as bizarre might just come down to the language barrier. English is not my first language. I do use the web for proof reading and translating some parts of the texts but this is definitely not AI written, like I provide a prompt and AI writes it all. That is absolutely not the case here. I am open about my usage of AI in images, but the text and the story concepts are all me. It does not feel good for me that someone can just say its AI slop when its not, and its my writing. I cant change and develop much when the criticism is 'feels like AI', not much for me to learn and better myself.
Thanks for the feedback and yes this is my first time in twine or any engine for that matter, and I am learning a lot with this project. Hope the upcoming releases addresses your issues and makes the project better.
I'd look into finding someone to help translate then, it definitely feels off pretty regularly. To many instances of weird word use and awkward statements, a couple of weird things where a person says "Go do X" and you just repeat back what they said in a way that no-one ever does, etc. I don't blame them for thinking its AI
Edit: " coating your tongue, your palate, your teeth", I don't think I've ever actually heard someone use the word palate in this context before even if it is technically a valid use. Similar with how much quim is used, I've heard the term before but never as something people actually use.
Another thing thats off is just the pacing, you finish one thing and immediately it ups the stakes and throws something else at you. It rushes you through things and then doesn't know what to do next so it rushes you through something else. Theres no build up and then just falls flat.
Edit: " coating your tongue, your palate, your teeth", I don't think I've ever actually heard someone use the word palate in this context before even if it is technically a valid use. Similar with how much quim is used, I've heard the term before but never as something people actually use.
Another thing thats off is just the pacing, you finish one thing and immediately it ups the stakes and throws something else at you. It rushes you through things and then doesn't know what to do next so it rushes you through something else. Theres no build up and then just falls flat.
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Mercedes
Active Member
- Nov 19, 2017
- 904
- 1,288
Reports like those from Lavan and TipTap are extremely helpful.
I don't call English my native language, and I often run text-heavy games through an online translator, which is why some grammatical inconsistencies are rarely or never noticed.
I was able to contribute something to the basic concept and visual structure, but constructive criticism is very welcome.
Back in my active tabletop days, I once tried to put a story about my main character into book form. I know how difficult it is to follow a consistent line here. The narrative form alone, when trying to retell the past, often failed for me because I switched between the imperative and the indicative. The current tense, the present, has seven subclasses in German, but only two in English.
So how is a translation program supposed to generate the correct translation for the story being told here? From the original to English to German?
The only other tip I have is to use DeepL.
The free version has extremely limited features, so you might want to consider a (time-limited) subscription, but this way you have two translations to compare.
I don't call English my native language, and I often run text-heavy games through an online translator, which is why some grammatical inconsistencies are rarely or never noticed.
I was able to contribute something to the basic concept and visual structure, but constructive criticism is very welcome.
Back in my active tabletop days, I once tried to put a story about my main character into book form. I know how difficult it is to follow a consistent line here. The narrative form alone, when trying to retell the past, often failed for me because I switched between the imperative and the indicative. The current tense, the present, has seven subclasses in German, but only two in English.
So how is a translation program supposed to generate the correct translation for the story being told here? From the original to English to German?
The only other tip I have is to use DeepL.
The free version has extremely limited features, so you might want to consider a (time-limited) subscription, but this way you have two translations to compare.
Again, cant afford any external help in my current situation. The tongue, palate, teeth thing was something that I wanted to write and I did, not sure what makes it AI? Also regarding the pacing being off, there are only 2 routes that I can think of where MC's life is in danger but MC is safe after a couple of passages, other than these 2 routes, none of the other routes have a life threatening situation which could be considered as high stakes, So I dont see how 'high stakes are setup but nothing happens'.
When I released the 0.1V barebones game with very few slides. I got a some feedback from Satori6 regarding the usage of pronouns, synonyms, etc. I worked on it and reworked the old slides and actively worked on the new slides with a better knowledge of the language after that. I can gather info and rework and get better from feedback like that. 'Feels off, feels like AI' gives 0 direction on where I need to develop myself.
High stakes doesn't mean just life threatening.
Lets look at the last route I did. You start with your parents fighting, ok thats a fairly normal encounter. You proceed into your father fighting and pray for him to win, you make a deal but agree to be played with. Almost immediately goes into Erythia appearing that night and she gives you a test from her goddess, you've barely gotten done with your Father's fight and now you're being tested. Ok whatever, I guess we can say the father's fight was a minor thing and the test is meant to be the main show. Brief talk with mom and then straight into seducing your father. Wasn't enough, another test, now go suck off a horse. Oh hey, you did good, here's a third test. Oh you passed that, guess what, go to the temple for another test.
There is just no breathing room, the character just goes from scene to infodump and back and forth. For one thing this just feels like you're a puppet, constantly being pulled around. For another its just unnatural, theres barely any look at her coming to terms with whats going on, just moving straight into the next thing thats happening. The start is so slow but then it goes the complete opposite direction and just never takes a break. A story needs high and low points mixed together, this seems like it just wants to be high points all the time, except theres nothing supporting them.
With just what I did before hitting a dead end you could write an entire book, instead it gets condensed down into what feels like a single chapter.
Yeah, I see your point. I was trying to avoid "filler", I didn't want players to feel like nothing is happening, so I, by mistake, took to the other extreme and had things happen at a break neck pace so as to keep up the 'something important happens in every passage' theme. I understand, I will try to rework this and find the sweet spot between what's currently out there and what can be added in terms of breathing space and for the added passages to not feel like generic filler passages.
Kinkstabbing
Newbie
- Aug 30, 2018
- 18
- 74
i dun mind if dev use AI to shorten the text to get the same point to the player but yeah its too much word before your let the player to pick any choices
I don't have problem with foreshadowing. What I do have a problem with is foreshadowing something multiple times in quick succession, as well as seeming to skip over it briefly, then going back to do that event in the present. This happens with the intro regarding your father's duel.
I never said the text was "AI slop", I said it was "AI assisted". I said that because I was certain AI was used in some manner to help you write it out, with you either starting a prompt and it continuing, and/or you'd edit the result it would give you when it generated more onto that prompt, or you'd have put it through an AI assistance tool that would be used to clean up a lot of the grammar and sentence structure. Those tend to rewrite quite a bit though, so that even if what enters it is 100% human made, what comes out is less-so. I don't call any of these AI slop because it still takes quite a bit of effort on the part of the writer, and most importantly, they're still the one doing the writing here. If you struggle with prose, there's no shame in using AI assistance to get ideas for how to make more detailed/vivid descriptions to the scene at hand. If you say you wrote all of that though, then I'll take you at your word.
The reason it does feel like AI is because AI has very identifiable patterns, and one of those is when it runs on with something without realising that isn't how people talk/think. The rape trauma dump I mentioned is a prime example of that, having the full trauma suddenly given by an NPC without anyone reacting to it is the problem, both in that it looks like AI, and it also looks far less believable. As I was reading it, my main thought was what my character's reaction was to hearing this as it became more horrific for the character, and having my character finally act once it was all done was another oddity. The majority of your game is fine in this regard, but the parts that stand out, really stand out.
In general a good way to stop your writing from looking like it was AI or having it feel unnatural is to not have such a "takes turns" style dialogue with the characters. People in real life don't just sit and wait for the other person to finish speaking, they react mid-dialogue, either verbally or non-verbally. Maybe they only react with a thought, but they still react. When something is going on as long as that rape backstory, then breaking it up with something from the player character, even just a quick mention of them looking aghast, would not only make the PC and dialogue seem more real, but would also help the reader not be overwhelmed as the story gets more horrific for the character in question. As people read, they do need breaks from walls of text every now and again, especially if it's with something uncomfortable.
Now I'm not saying to break up every sentence/paragraph like this, just that when something is long and detailed like that, it stands out and is a harder read when it doesn't have some kind of break to it.
If this is what you want to do though, then don't let me stop you. I'm not going to give it a negative review or anything of the sort for these kinds of criticism.
Thanks for the feedback. I agree, I will rework the pacing of this story. I didn't have the MC react to the rape retelling just so that I can get to the next plot point, so that the player would not feel like they are reading a lot and nothing much seems to be happening. I see the problem here, The break neck speed does feel jarring in hindsight. I will rework the initial passages to provide more choice upfront too. I did not mean to get too defensive with the "AI slop" comment, that is because I put a lot of work into it, does not feel good to see that work be diminished like so. But, yes, as mentioned in my response, I am not a native English speaker, I do use translators and grammar correctors of sorts for a better delivery, but I dont use AI in terms of I enter a prompt and it gives out the story. That is not what happens. I write it, I use the web to correct it is all, May be it is changing a bit too much, May be having the grammar mistakes and spelling mistakes might add some character to the passages rather than feeling AI generated. Il try it for the next update.
EvolutionKills
Well-Known Member
- Jan 3, 2021
- 1,440
- 4,876
Oh, so the option to just do a pure text adventure without art and let the writing stand on it's own just didn't occur to you? But no, you're special, you need to use the magical plagiarism black box. It's a 'necessary evil', and therefor you're absolved of all culpability for your active choice in using it, right?
A shame really, cause the premise sounded fun, but now I have zero reason to believe you've actually wrote any of it. The perils of using the magic plagiarism black box; nobody has any reason to believe you're not offloading anything and everything else off onto Gen-AI as well. Therefore it's all effectively slop.
SEXATRON ULTRA
Well-Known Member
- Oct 1, 2019
- 1,055
- 1,452
If people are ok with no images, so am I. I received feedback from the demo version that it would be better with images for better immersive feeling. That is why I added it. If no one likes the images. Im ok with removing it all together and just focusing on the text alone.