The TRUTH about RPGM games

[bobdillan]

I decided to make this post to clear up some misconceptions about rpgm, because of the "why does everyone hate rpgm?" thread. so i will do my best. and feel free to add questions or points and I will try to answer.

first things first though, my background: I am not a dev, I have studied games design (seriously don't go to uni for that shit just watch videos and self learn or find someone who knows about the stuff to teach you) my experience has only really been with unity, maya, and a tiny bit of photoshop. However i do know how to tell the difference between an engine issue and a dev issue and I have tried my best to separate the two. so get ready for the truth to be revealed.

Fact #1 rpgm games are not shit, the devs are: pretty much every issue i have read people complaining about can usually always be boiled down to a shitty dev either choosing the wrong engine for their game or just not even really playing their game to see if it even plays well or is balanced at all.

Fun Fact #1 a non porn game example of a engine/code issue: the game RuneScape has a max cash is "2,147,483,647 due to the usage of the signed 32 bit integer data type (231- 1)" -runescape wikki. the purpose of mentioning this is to give an idea of the type of issues code and engines cause, rarely do they cause the issues people have a problem with.

misconception time:

1. most rpgm games look shitty and don't play well: this is the dev not really trying with the art assets or not spending proper time using the assets provided. the not playing well usually comes down to not coded well, as a small rpgm game should run smoothly, if it doesn't its the devs fault.

2. not sprint: from what i know sprint comes standard to rpgm games and if its not there blame the dev.

3. boring to play: dev issue, or you just don't like the classic rpg format, or the story is shit. pick one.

4. most are shit: again this is a dev issue not a rpgm issue. the biggest problem with the rpgm games is that you have devs using this engine and then make a visual novel... inside an rpg engine. you do the math. it's not like they could have used renp'y or anything.

5. Navigating the maps is annoying and shit: yeah this is a engine issue that rpgm.... yeah nah shitty devs strike again.

6.low quality: well if you have seen some of the more rare rpgm games the devs are experienced enough to overhaul the engine and make things look fancy af (i think the name is malice and the machine or something did this)

7. bitch to save: yeah dev issue, e.g. the save ability in myxxxkin, i personally like the game, and the saving in it is annoying but the grind is that games problem, also i reckon it should just be a visual novel instead as it doesn't really seem to rely on rpgm for much besides combat which feels really out of place, like courage should be gained from just talking to woman or seeing a therapist or something.

8. RPGM crashes a lot. yeah more than likely a dev issue yet again.

9.slow dialogue: pretty valid point actually, although that is yet again a dev issue because its rpgm, i am sure they can do more show and don't tell of a story. the big issue i find is a lot of them have pointless dialogue which is a writing issue.

10. taxing on a computer: yeah if its a big game like roundscape pretty true, but tbh why you playing 1.5gb porn games on a ancient computer? just watch porn or play a visual novel.

11.notorious for memory leaks: i actually don't know much about this but I am sure that this would probably be more of a shitty dev not knowing how to code the game properly issue.

12. SOOOO much running around wasting time: yeah 100% dev issue. roundscape is easier on this cause they have a fast travel system, and horses to get back to base instantly but you go back to the same spot you were before.

13.slow combat, not auto feature: I don't know if rpgm comes with an auto feature but I know devs can program one in the form of an item. also slow combat bit the devs should have the option for a porn/easy mode if someone just wants to skim through.

14.its easy to make games on: from what i have read this is a lie and its a lie that a lot of devs have fallen for hence the large amount of shitty rpgm games. while it is newbie friendly there is still learning to be done and if you really want to do fancy stuff with it then you need to learn qutie a bit.

15. It's design for one style of game: ehhhh rpg is quite a broad range of style, and some games show it can be used to have other styles but yeah pretty much, nothing wrong with that though.

basically the issue isn't rpgm, its the cash grabbing shitty devs saying "it's just a hobby." where it was pointed out on the thread that i mentioned that if you have a hobby you want to learn about it and get better at it. so yeah don't eat that lie if they are using that as an excuse for it being shitty. a good response to accept positively would be "I am new to this and am still learning, it is a new hobby of mine and I want to improve and get better." basically if they say its a hobby and are not using that as an excuse for it to keep being shit then they are fine.

one thing i have found is the trend of shitty devs is flowing over into all forms of games now, you have them in renp'y. some even moronically try unity. and then you have slonique's first game :| i bring this up because i think it is a nice reminder of what a cash grab and no proper pay off for the ones playing looks like. however their new game looks promising, but I remain skeptical. but yeah at least it didn't fully throw away the pay off to pretty much all build up like last jedi did with the force awakens storyline. *shade has been thrown* my advice for any devs reading this. don't rush your project, don't do it just for money, put in the time and effort and it will show and people will like you for it. o and engage the community, if you make a porn game be focal on the forums and listen to constructive critism, but don't always follow it a big issue i have with any form of creative content, is the person making it listens to criticism that actually diverts the game from its intended vision aka you make a change to the game based on critique that doesn't line up with the story or what the game is trying to be. final tip, take a step back now and then and look at where your game is going and if thats where you want to go, if not then adjust accordingly, you are not going to get it perfectly right on the first attempt.

Final note: this is my first proper thought out post, so take it with a grain of salt. also if you have anything to add or critique please do so and I will edit and update if I perceive it to be valid or relevant.

 

[EisTeeAT]

Honestly, this vote is one in which one should be able to vote for all three options.

Because all three are true here and there.

 

[bobdillan]

Honestly, this vote is one in which one should be able to vote for all three options.

Because all three are true here and there.

it's more which you think is the biggest issue, as any engine issue should be reported to the people who make rpgm because as far as i am aware they do fixes for bugs and issues that are from the engine itself. and its my opinion that what can seem like an engine issue is usually a code/dev issue. I would edit the question but i can't.

 

[EisTeeAT]

Yeah most issues are due to bad devs, but overall the engine itself is really not suited for the context of Adult games all in all. Therefore for the context of this forum the engine is a issue too, even though it might be fine for so many other things, but for Adult games i think UNity is probaply the best and if you are doing a VN RenpY.

So the "engine" issue has to be put into the right context to be valid.

Also point 2 and 3 are kind of the same, cause if someone makes a VN in RPGM he is kind of a shitty dev making a poor choice before he even starts.

 

[Lykanz]

So, if I understand it correctly, you're saying that the blame isn't on RPGM being a shitty engine but actually on the dev for choosing such a shitty engine?

Yeah, well... Farmer's Dreams is there to prove RPGM isn't actually THAT bad and A Town Uncovered to prove that Ren'py can be made to run like a cart loaded with dicks.

But I do agree with you, most problems in RPGM games are the dev's fault for not knowing how to bring the most out of his chosen engine.

I mean, I'm not a master programmer or anything, but I do know how to NOT screw up my game's code (well, at least not that much).

 

[DarthSeduction]

7. bitch to save: yeah dev issue, e.g. the save ability in myxxxkin, i personally like the game, and the saving in it is annoying but the grind is that games problem, also i reckon it should just be a visual novel instead as it doesn't really seem to rely on rpgm for much besides combat which feels really out of place, like courage should be gained from just talking to woman or seeing a therapist or something.

I still haven't played an RPGM where you can save before any decisions. There are a few which are smart enough to program an auto save before putting you in a cg scene, but as far as I know, without a seperate plugin or module, the save problem exists in all RPGM.

That, and the fact that many RPGM do crash often combines to have a huge problem. I really like Coceter Chronicles. It is my favorite uncompleted game. However, if I haven't saved in a half hour, because I was lost in gameplay and not thinking, then I open a door and the game crashes, I'm gonna have a hard time giving the game a break. That said, in the case of a good game, like Coceter, I'll put up with it. In the case of a mediocre game, like Zoe's Temptations, I might have not finished it if it had been an issue.

 

[bobdillan]

So, if I understand it correctly, you're saying that the blame isn't on RPGM being a shitty engine but actually on the dev for choosing such a shitty engine?

Yeah, well... Farmer's Dreams is there to prove RPGM isn't actually THAT bad and A Town Uncovered to prove that Ren'py can be made to run like a cart loaded with dicks.

But I do agree with you, most problems in RPGM games are the dev's fault for not knowing how to bring the most out of his chosen engine.

I mean, I'm not a master programmer or anything, but I do know how to NOT screw up my game's code (well, at least not that much).

I don't think rpgm is a shitty engine, it does what it is marketed to do. for its purpose it is a perfectly good engine. if someone wants to make an rpg porn game i would highly recommend it.

 

[bobdillan]

I still haven't played an RPGM where you can save before any decisions. There are a few which are smart enough to program an auto save before putting you in a cg scene, but as far as I know, without a seperate plugin or module, the save problem exists in all RPGM.

That, and the fact that many RPGM do crash often combines to have a huge problem. I really like Coceter Chronicles. It is my favorite uncompleted game. However, if I haven't saved in a half hour, because I was lost in gameplay and not thinking, then I open a door and the game crashes, I'm gonna have a hard time giving the game a break. That said, in the case of a good game, like Coceter, I'll put up with it. In the case of a mediocre game, like Zoe's Temptations, I might have not finished it if it had been an issue.

was meant in general. if the dev is nice enough they will warn you. but some are pretty straight forward with the choices and what path they will lead to. from my experience a good rpgm game has the game designed in a way that you overall choice affects what scenes you get based on the way you play. like the whole good guy bad guy thing. on the crashing thing i believe that could be the devs fault as well for using the wrong version, as i read on the other thread that this has been fixed.

Yeah most issues are due to bad devs, but overall the engine itself is really not suited for the context of Adult games all in all. Therefore for the context of this forum the engine is a issue too, even though it might be fine for so many other things, but for Adult games i think UNity is probaply the best and if you are doing a VN RenpY.

So the "engine" issue has to be put into the right context to be valid.

Also point 2 and 3 are kind of the same, cause if someone makes a VN in RPGM he is kind of a shitty dev making a poor choice before he even starts.

i would disagree. it depends on what kind of game you want it to be. roundscape, legend of queen opala and others like them do well with this engine because their story is built to have combat and you are basically on a heros journey which rpgm does well with. but if you are talking modern setting games then yeah i agree, while i liked milfs control and icstors other rpgm games, there is no denying that they would be so much better play on renp'y.

 

[DarthSeduction]

was meant in general. if the dev is nice enough they will warn you. but some are pretty straight forward with the choices and what path they will lead to. from my experience a good rpgm game has the game designed in a way that you overall choice affects what scenes you get based on the way you play. like the whole good guy bad guy thing. on the crashing thing i believe that could be the devs fault as well for using the wrong version, as i read on the other thread that this has been fixed.

An example, would be My Girlfriend's Amnesia, where I have had to replay entire sections of the game, because I didn't agree with the outcome of a choice. This is, to an extent, bad writing and poor use of RPGM, however, I could certainly find other examples. Essentially, any game that doesn't let you save before making a major decision that could affect the future in unknown ways, is broken.

That doesn't mean I won't play any RPGM, as I said, my favorite game is one. However, it is an inherent flaw in the engine for the type of games we are making.

 

[bobdillan]

An example, would be My Girlfriend's Amnesia, where I have had to replay entire sections of the game, because I didn't agree with the outcome of a choice. This is, to an extent, bad writing and poor use of RPGM, however, I could certainly find other examples. Essentially, any game that doesn't let you save before making a major decision that could affect the future in unknown ways, is broken.

That doesn't mean I won't play any RPGM, as I said, my favorite game is one. However, it is an inherent flaw in the engine for the type of games we are making.

I believe that game falls into the "should be a VN." category. also just search up a rpg unpacker or decrypter if you just want the images.

 

[DarthSeduction]

I believe that game falls into the "should be a VN." category. also just search up a rpg unpacker or decrypter if you just want the images.

Where'd I say I only wanted the images? The instance I think of with this is the very clear signalling girlfriend sends that she doesn't want you to be spending time with her sister, so I decided, ok, lets call up the chick I met yesterday... I'll definitely be able to keep that platonic, right? Only to be forced into an exhibitionists dream with a girl, cheating on my girlfriend, which I didn't want to do. So I had to replay that whole segment, only I didn't save before going into the hospital.

Yes, it is a game that functions as a VN, but it was mostly just used as an example. I could have made the same point about Coceter Chronicles. What if I would rather not piss off Becca, and therefore would not have fooled around with Courtney the first time? I didn't get a chance to save before that choice, so I'd have to go back to when I did last save and fix it. If that were a half hour before, you can see how that would be an issue.

To be fair, I wouldn't make that choice, but I know someone who might, because they find Becca more interesting. And that is the problem with the engine. Coceter Chronicles does work quite well in RPGM it isn't really a typical RPG, in that it isn't a combat game, but the other elements of the gameplay all work great.

 

[bobdillan]

Where'd I say I only wanted the images?

was just throwing it out there as an option.

 

[Yoshiiki]

As I mostly agree, I am going to respond only to small part.

11.notorious for memory leaks: i actually don't know much about this but I am sure that this would probably be more of a shitty dev not knowing how to code the game properly issue.

I think I mentioned it already in

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, there were issues with that and it was engine's fault. They fixed most of it (there are still few, most can be avoided by dev, some require intentionally using known issues). But again, it seems that a lot of devs don't update their projects, because you need to do it manually which is pretty much just copy-paste certain files... Instructions are in every update:

Spoiler

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And if this apparently is too complicated or bothersome, then dear dev: fuck off.

10. taxing on a computer: yeah if its a big game like roundscape pretty true, but tbh why you playing 1.5gb porn games on a ancient computer? just watch porn or play a visual novel.

Depends, especially if the game has a lot of images. It's something that was bothering me, because even though garbage collector does its job, I am still manually clearing unused images after the event, just in same manner I am caching images when needed. Without doing any of this, images tend to feel clunky when swapped and it can easily make a big dump in memory before it's cleaned.
Still, I agree that there is a point where you can easily say player's PC is just too old.

14.its easy to make games on: from what i have read this is a lie and its a lie that a lot of devs have fallen for hence the large amount of shitty rpgm games. while it is newbie friendly there is still learning to be done and if you really want to do fancy stuff with it then you need to learn qutie a bit.

Well, there is a lot of what you can do with basic tools provided, sure, sometimes it requires using brain, but generally you can do a lot. Other than that is like you said: they want fancy stuff without understanding what they are doing.
Sure, you can slap plugin on your project and be done with it, but how about reading whole readme? Or maybe read code itself to try and understand how it works?

 

[The-real-Vastitas]

malice and the machine

with an s instead of the c but who still remembers...Ohh....over 7k:coldsweat:...hmmm...I guess some do...although the last public update was decades ago by now the games funding may rival star citizenXD
...other than that I tent to agree for the most part...about 80% of the work is done by the developer not the engine...if one goes bug hunting it's wise to start with the smug fella that thought working with RPGM is a piece of cake really...
If one can read a Ren'py script the engine is actually easier to work with and while Ren'pys limitations are not as binding as RPGMakers it's actually easier to make mistakes and get away with it.
Some RPGMaker games are actually good and wouldn't even work as well on another engine that must be the devils work while it's the engines fault always the engines fault...:FuckYea:
one final note concerning:

SOOOO much running around wasting time

if the map is too big a developer is probably not testing his own game while he in theory should be the one that ran the most miles unless he is a masochist of course in which case there is no argument but also little interest of the once that do not tick likewise.

 

[fauxplayer]

I still haven't played an RPGM where you can save before any decisions.

Vis Major: Awakening and College Life are two games where the dev has implemented enhanced save features. Yea, you still can't save whenever you want like in Renpy, but in Vis Major you can press S at almost any point and it calls up the Save menu. So a good dev can prevent those situations where you end up having to load a save but still click through massive amounts of text and/or travel needlessly to get back to the decision point where you want to try the other option.

The scrollback and "skip previously read text" features of Renpy are what makes RPGM less enjoyable for me. I'm used to clicking a choice, seeing the next few clicks to see how it plays out, scrolling back, making the other choice to see how that plays out for a bit before saving the game and settling on a choice. And if realize down the road I should have a different choice, I can cue up that save and then hold the CTRL key until I get to something new.

There are several RPGM games I like, but that's usually despite the engine and never because of it.

 

[DarthSeduction]

Vis Major: Awakening and College Life are two games where the dev has implemented enhanced save features. Yea, you still can't save whenever you want like in Renpy, but in Vis Major you can press S at almost any point and it calls up the Save menu. So a good dev can prevent those situations where you end up having to load a save but still click through massive amounts of text and/or travel needlessly to get back to the decision point where you want to try the other option.

The scrollback and "skip previously read text" features of Renpy are what makes RPGM less enjoyable for me. I'm used to clicking a choice, seeing the next few clicks to see how it plays out, scrolling back, making the other choice to see how that plays out for a bit before saving the game and settling on a choice. And if realize down the road I should have a different choice, I can cue up that save and then hold the CTRL key until I get to something new.

There are several RPGM games I like, but that's usually despite the engine and never because of it.

You're actually right, I totally forgot about that in Awakening.

 

[redknight00]

No offense, but Ren'py really spoiled players with the rollback and autosave at every choice, when I started reading the thread I was bothered by people saying they can't save every time when it is, but now I understand their problem better.

 

[EisTeeAT]

The big thing with the saves is: Most people like to go through all possible paths of a game , you know to experience all sides.
And in RPGM games that means a lot of doing things over and wasting ltos of time, while in RenpY i just set skip except unread and make different choices and find the stuff i have not yet seen, whilst still knowing the story up until that part, meaning i can enjoy the story in this new way.
RPGM is just not suited for multiple endings / paths and most adult games are this way.

 

[Paz]

While I strongly agree with almost all of the initial points, here's my 2 cents on a few bits -in no particular order- as well as a couple more points (maybe more general than RPGMaker itself).

Fact #1 rpgm games are not shit, the devs are: pretty much every issue i have read people complaining about can usually always be boiled down to a shitty dev either choosing the wrong engine for their game or just not even really playing their game to see if it even plays well or is balanced at all. (along with various other correctly identified issues)

It's not always incompetence that results to this. Sometimes it's just plain copycatting another creator, resulting in transferring the same shortcomings in another game.
Case in point: ICSTOR's first game, which had a needlessly huge and devoid map. Then ICCreactions' game comes along and is pretty much identical, down to the same huge map and game mechanics. I really don't believe that 2 different creators happened to make the exact same bad decisions when designing their games.

RPGM crashes a lot. yeah more than likely a dev issue yet again.

Mostly yeah, but RPGMaker itself can fuck up. Early on MV was a resource hog like no other due to memory leaks, there have been incidents of games from established creators that moved on to MV and had their games consume 8G+ RAM. Just a sidenote.

... and then you have slonique's first game ...

I don't believe that any engine itself is at fault. It feels to me that Slonique in particular has nice ideas but fails to materialize them in actual games (apart from his last one)

taxing on a computer: yeah if its a big game like roundscape pretty true, but tbh why you playing 1.5gb porn games on a ancient computer? just watch porn or play a visual novel.
...
11.notorious for memory leaks: i actually don't know much about this but I am sure that this would probably be more of a shitty dev not knowing how to code the game properly issue.

This is also partly the creator's fault at times. If you don't optimize your images/assets and don't preload properly or at all, it's expected to eat up resources like mad.
I've seen plenty of games that have ~100 images and weigh upwards of 1Gb, this should never be the case. There is little point in cramming 4k lossless images inside RPGMaker.

SOOOO much running around wasting time: yeah 100% dev issue. roundscape is easier on this cause they have a fast travel system, and horses to get back to base instantly but you go back to the same spot you were before.

This one is both a result of hasty design and copycatting as mentioned above, but also a sign of great ambition by the creator. Plenty of times there were promises of grandiose games with tons of NPCs etc, and the creator would design with that in mind. But those maps remained empty and lifeless for far too long till then (or forever in most cases)

don't rush your project, don't do it just for money, put in the time and effort and it will show and people will like you for it

This one, I feel is a bit on the community as well. I mean, that's where the money comes from.
If you're willing to throw cash on any game that promises even a modicum of sexy times, it's expected to have subtle (or not so subtle) cash grabs, since people with almost always follow the path of least resistance (or amassing revenue with the minimum effort in this case).

 

[a meme]

RPGmaker has plenty of issues that you didn't mention, but most of the problems come from lazy devs.

Actual issues for VX Ace (used the most in Japanese porn games):

• Hardcoded maximum resolution from the Stone Age
• No multi threading
• An error always crashes your game
• Barely any exception handling and most of the time it points to the wrong code
• No possibility of adding custom events in the event editor, making custom code hell to use
• Code editor is very primitive and bad
• No visual interface editor, so altering the menus is horrible
• Limit of 4 choices in the choice dialog
  
• Some essential things are missing, like loading a game while playing, always sprinting, text skip, etc.