The TRUTH about RPGM games

What do you think the issue is?


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Yoshiiki

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Nov 10, 2017
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This one, I feel is a bit on the community as well. I mean, that's where the money comes from.
If you're willing to throw cash on any game that promises even a modicum of sexy times, it's expected to have subtle (or not so subtle) cash grabs, since people with almost always follow the path of least resistance (or amassing revenue with the minimum effort in this case).
This, tells you a lot about issues (not only with bad rpg maker games). People see all those high earning patreons and want some of that cake. Then they got lazy because money is here and no boss to discipline them... Which kinda is a fault of patrons that just sit and wait.
Honest and hard work, even if you are bad at it, as long as you have those traits, you will get better and make (some) money without having problems with sleeping at night.
 

DarthSeduction

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This, tells you a lot about issues (not only with bad rpg maker games). People see all those high earning patreons and want some of that cake. Then they got lazy because money is here and no boss to discipline them... Which kinda is a fault of patrons that just sit and wait.
Honest and hard work, even if you are bad at it, as long as you have those traits, you will get better and make (some) money without having problems with sleeping at night.
Yeah, the patrons are just as much to blame. Nothing I hate more than the implication that we need a boss to police us. If a consumer pays for an inferior product then we will get an inferior product. If the consumer is picky then we will get better products.
 

Göffel

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Mar 4, 2018
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Seeing some answers in this topic, I would want to vote: 4: The players,

for playing RPGM games when they wanted to play sth. completely else, and then blaming RPGM for not being a perfect VN engine/ 3d flight simulator / washing machine.
 

DarthSeduction

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Seeing some answers in this topic, I would want to vote: 4: The players,

for playing RPGM games when they wanted to play sth. completely else, and then blaming RPGM for not being a VN engine/ 3d flight simulator / washing machine.
Someone hasn't played enough RPGm then. Because we aren't complaining that RPGs are made on them, we are complaining that VN are made on them when they shouldn't be.
 
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Göffel

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Mar 4, 2018
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Someone hasn't played enough RPGm then. Because we aren't complaining that RPGs are made on them, we are complaining that VN are made on them when they shouldn't be.
I understand that point, and I see it as a totally valid point of critique - but not against the engine in itself. It's the game designer's fault when they chose to work "against" the engine they chose.

Just as it is (informed) player's fault choosing a game they do/will not like.
----------------------------

just so - here is a counterexample :

That that game is bad (BAD) is not unity's fault, it is craptech who are bad at making games / selling untested alphas or betas.
Had they chosen rpgm for their bloody topview map movement, build a raiding party, battle and auto-levelup game, with very little text - then maybe the game would not have sucked/ be as buggy as it is/ would let you save at least every now and then.
(the art is nice, though)
 

DarthSeduction

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I understand that point, and I see it as a totally valid point of critique - but not against the engine in itself. It's the game designer's fault when they chose to work "against" the engine they chose.

Just as it is (informed) player's fault choosing a game they do/will not like.
Which as I understand, was the point of the thread, or did you not read the OP? At each point he blames the developer. The only point of contention I do have is in the limitations on saving. However, even that can be helped with modules and plugins.
 

The-real-Vastitas

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Jul 16, 2017
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Then they got lazy because money
I believe the hype is already over...the once that used RPGM to create a VN with little content and a lot of running around on vanilla maps with vanilla chibis and the most copy&paste plots imaginable have migrated there money grab attempts to Ren'py by now knowing...that the reputation of the RPGM-engine is ruined forever...it is a fact ( looking at the numbers ) that RPGMaker games receive less funding nowadays ( not counting the few exceptions that mostly started there respective projects well before all that ) so whomever is in it to milk it should probably think twice before he/she is using this engine to create a game.
If I would try to pull of a scam I would push for a lot of content and regularity in the first few month creating a 3D Novel featuring Incest + shota + corruption in Ren'py, which seems to be the best chance for that right now, before slowly but purposely the content per update would be reduced to a level that hurts but keeps the patronage steady and rolling.
At this point no one who's creating a new project and is in it to win it money wise should use RPGMaker to be honest...not even for a RPG ( too much work for little money just look at potential competitors and compare content provided )

Therefore if you see a new RPGMaker project nowadays give it a try because it might just be created by a guy/gal who simple creates a game he/she thinks of as a passion...or somebody who's green enough thinking that the advertisement for RPGMaker stating it is simple to use actually holds merit....as if advertisement ever tells the whole truth...
 

Göffel

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Mar 4, 2018
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Which as I understand, was the point of the thread, or did you not read the OP? At each point he blames the developer. The only point of contention I do have is in the limitations on saving. However, even that can be helped with modules and plugins.
Oh, I did - it is just that I do not want to let players off the hook so easily (generally, not you in particular). too many blaming their own bad choices on the chosen things.
Be it playing an NTR game only to complain that it contains NTR, be it reading a "low/late sexual content" novel when all they wanted was sexscenes, be it playing rpgm games when they wanted a pure vn/ sth. whatever else.
 

bobdillan

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Nov 18, 2016
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I skimmed through the comments, cause ain't no body go time to read in depth :p also i forgot about not being able to edit after like 20min sooo yeah no updates to main post, but hey feel free to keep adding and discussing, this is good stuff just talking about it and expanding each others "KNAWLADGE!" - tai lopez. i myself have learned quite a bit that i didn't know before.
 

Yoshiiki

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Nov 10, 2017
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Seeing some answers in this topic, I would want to vote: 4: The players,

for playing RPGM games when they wanted to play sth. completely else, and then blaming RPGM for not being a perfect VN engine/ 3d flight simulator / washing machine.
I believe the hype is already over...
Oh boy, we are stumbling into same area of why AAA games get bad, repetitive or just pure milking when addressing player based issue. It is generally a big problem that can't be solved only with rising awareness. It goes way deeper than that, there is a lot of "I WANT" in it and a lot of time, requires people to change their mindsets and literally ask them to deny something they consider fun to make a big enough dent in big studios pockets. Mostly it's just company going too far, everything tones down and back to usual business.
In patreon case it varies, I hopefully want to say there is this "Is this a scam?/lazy dev?/etc" mentality for new projects, but just because I see it around, doesn't mean it's true - data needed. Why hopefully? Because it filters out projects that don't want to grow. Then you have ones that stop growing.
It's really hard to not being lazy while working at home (Which I guess devs do when they reach "full time" goal), as it requires self discipline. Just passion will take you only so far, but hard, cold rules you follow and deny to break will support that passion. Both issues here with devs and players are quite big topics that can take tons of words and advice. Damn, even when seeing a group of people starting a project my first question is: How is it being managed? Who is the team leader? And so on.

Patreon hypetrain, huh? Even if it is/was over, you will still get people that are late for the "party" with only goal to get money. Just because trend faded, doesn't mean people will just forget about it in months and stop doing it. Matter of time before new idea of milking people comes up, rinse and repeat.

There is one thing regarding devs that I just remembered. Ones that are sitting on a high horse and don't listen to any critique. Just because it isn't mixed with advice, doesn't mean it's bad (you don't need to be a Spielberg to say that a movie is shit :p). Pointing out issues is good, if a dev can figure out a way to deal with them is a different matter, but just trying to is part of getting better. Sure, taking in critique may be hard if you are some kind of feeble butterfly, but it's part of creating things and you have to accept it. Getting angry or hiding behind some circle of group jerking is not going to cut it.
 

Gomly1980

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Jul 4, 2017
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I don't hate RPGM, Roundscape Adorevia is one of my favourite games.

I hate games that use RPGM but have no actual game other than "go here ... then go here ... then go here", what is the point?

Basically when I boot up something made in RPGM I expect an RPG. If it's a VN in RPGM with bullshit pointless running around I delete it and never look back. No regrets.
 
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groove888

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Apr 12, 2017
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The big thing with the saves is: Most people like to go through all possible paths of a game , you know to experience all sides.
IMO it's also because some choices are really unclear and the logic of some games are often inconsistent (ie: sometimes being a dick is the good choice sometime it isn't).
 

Aeilion

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Jun 14, 2017
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I have nothing specifically against RPGM games even if honestly they will never be my first choice.
I don't know the possibilities and capacities of the system so I can't say if it's the fault of the devs or the system ...

But apart from one single game that I tested, all the others had 90% of the content that can be achieved without any difficulty on another system and 10% for mini game or fight (useless?), which by the fact that it only represents 10% or less of the game could have been done with a little research on another system.
So what annoys me the most is that I don't understand why.

If you want to make a rpg game with lots of fighting and lots of things that would be more easily accessible with rpgm ok. But if 90% of the content of your game is text and cgs ... I don't understand.

So yes yes I hear that rpgm can, in the hands of good guys, produce a very interesting game, without bug, with alternatives for the saves etc ... but I really need someone to tell me why it's good to use rpgm.
 

Yoshiiki

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Nov 10, 2017
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But if 90% of the content of your game is text and cgs ... I don't understand.
*ponders old JRPGs* Hmm... hmm...
*ponders new JRPGs* Hmm... hmm...
Wasn't text a major thing in Japanse RPG games? Isn't it to this day? Isn't reading a thing in Japan? As far as I know it is and quite big. So where is the issue?
Oh right, keep in mind market you are targeting your game at.
 

yung greene

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Nov 28, 2017
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You can't blame a software for being the same throughout every game it runs, if the dev doesn't give the game attention and makes it generic, don't be blaming the engine
 

Gomly1980

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*ponders old JRPGs* Hmm... hmm...
*ponders new JRPGs* Hmm... hmm...
Wasn't text a major thing in Japanse RPG games? Isn't it to this day? Isn't reading a thing in Japan? As far as I know it is and quite big. So where is the issue?
Oh right, keep in mind market you are targeting your game at.
I think he's more referring to games like Girlfriends Amnesia where there is no RPG It's a VN in RPGM and those are shit.

Some people may enjoy running around aimlessly but they bore the shit out of some of us. If I play a game in RPGM then I expect it to be an RPG along the lines of Roundscape. If I boot up an RPGM game and it's "go to A to trigger the next few screens of bullshit" then i'm not interested.

VN's in RPGM are dull.
 

Aeilion

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Jun 14, 2017
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*ponders old JRPGs* Hmm... hmm...
*ponders new JRPGs* Hmm... hmm...
Wasn't text a major thing in Japanse RPG games? Isn't it to this day? Isn't reading a thing in Japan? As far as I know it is and quite big. So where is the issue?
Oh right, keep in mind market you are targeting your game at.
The problem is not that there is or not a lot of text or a lot of cgs. But if the goal of the game is to offer text and cgs then why not use a better system for that. If the optics of the game is mainly fighting, leveling, the equipment of the character etc ... ok but as I said, in what I saw it is not the case (exept for one).

I do not know what Japanese game you're talking about so I will not have anything to say about it. Just that I do not see the connection with what I said.
If indeed there is as you say a ton of Japanese RPG game with a ton of text everywhere and just 10% of the content oriented combat, level etc .. AND which uses rpgm. I would say exactly the same thing: Why do they use rpgm?

It's a bit like seeing someone carve his pencil with a knife. Yes it works, yes people who have the habit and mastery can do as well with a pencil sharpener but if you have a pencil sharpener next to you, why not use it if you're not sure of your use of the knife?

So yes we can do as well as with renpy surely. But having tested a lot of rpgm VN game (I did not want to categorize it like that but it will be easier), I have a hard time not telling myself that to do as well as renpy it takes a lot of work. And that unfortunately many are not ready to provide. So I preferred that they use a simpler system, adapted to what they want to do and that they devote their energy to the content.

Is that because the developer is lazzy or because rpgm is not made for that ... I would just say that if you want to do a VN with rpgm it will surely take a lot more effort than with renpy. (at least for a good one)

Hoping to have managed to be understandable despite my bad English.
First of all, I wonder why.
I do not criticize rpgm or developers.
 

Yoshiiki

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Nov 10, 2017
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The problem is not that there is or not a lot of text or a lot of cgs. But if the goal of the game is to offer text and cgs then why not use a better system for that. If the optics of the game is mainly fighting, leveling, the equipment of the character etc ... ok but as I said, in what I saw it is not the case (exept for one).
My argument was that a lot of Japanese games have tons of text, sure, VNs are kings in the field, but if you take apart J-RPGs (I am not talking hentai ones), there is shitload of letters. RPG Maker does a fine job in this matter. Problem is in delivery, but that falls on a dev. Also, depends if you are looking at game in parts, which is often the case on crowdfunded games as they release it bit by bit and a game as a whole product.
I do not know what Japanese game you're talking about so I will not have anything to say about it. Just that I do not see the connection with what I said.
If indeed there is as you say a ton of Japanese RPG game with a ton of text everywhere and just 10% of the content oriented combat, level etc .. AND which uses rpgm. I would say exactly the same thing: Why do they use rpgm?
As mentioned, mostly old titles, not hentai focused... Sure, sure, it's not 90%, depends on game, but it's a big chunk of it. In west we like having things shortened and delivered in most efficient way in terms of space and time, that's why our ads are short sentences to catch attention or sometimes just buzzwords. In Japan you will see ads that for us would get boring, because often too much text. But that's a whole different topic.
If we look at the issue of text, ask some translators and their main issue of stuffing all of that in those tiny textboxes, because Japan needs less space to deliver same amount of sentences.
50 letters vs 10 symbols and then you look at their ads and realize how long those are or text in games.
It's a bit like seeing someone carve his pencil with a knife. Yes it works, yes people who have the habit and mastery can do as well with a pencil sharpener but if you have a pencil sharpener next to you, why not use it if you're not sure of your use of the knife?
This is going to get weird. So, have you tried comparing both techniques? Pencil sharpener will be way more effective, faster, more perfect. Why would then anyone bother? In same manner we like to stop and listen to birds, tune ourselves to the sound of rain and so on. It can be calming, clear your mind, maybe not as effective, but way more positive when working on something. There are times when you should stop and just enjoy some things, even if it's not effective. Running through life like a machine that can't stop will wear you down.
See? SEE? Told you it will get weird.
So yes we can do as well as with renpy surely. But having tested a lot of rpgm VN game (I did not want to categorize it like that but it will be easier), I have a hard time not telling myself that to do as well as renpy it takes a lot of work. And that unfortunately many are not ready to provide. So I preferred that they use a simpler system, adapted to what they want to do and that they devote their energy to the content.

Is that because the developer is lazzy or because rpgm is not made for that ... I would just say that if you want to do a VN with rpgm it will surely take a lot more effort than with renpy. (at least for a good one)
Really? Would say it doesn't take much work. Click button, add image from list. Click another button, add textboxt and fill it with words. There is a limit of 99 images on screen. #1 is lowest layer and #99 highest. So you put: Background, characters, facial expressions, effects. Then you add text, player never sees a single tileset and you have a simple VN.
You literally do VN style every time there is a dialogue with character images and not just busts. Every hentai event is just VN style. But you aren't making a VN, you are making RPG, so a player can go around and discover stuff on their own instead of being provided with locked options to choose from.
But yeah, that's the theory, practice is another matter, especially when you start and can't yet design things properly. And just for an argument's sake, unity 3D is great for VNs because you can really create cool effects using it. Creating a framework for VN style that takes formatted text from .txt files takes around a day to make. And unlike a lot of engines, it's (technically) free.
Sport cars aren't really useful in a constantly jammed city, yet people still buy them and drive, getting from point A to B. Be it to show off, be it to have an option of extra HP in some emergency, whatever. Not everything must be atomicity to make it perfectly suited for the job, issues that come with it are part of the fun.
Hoping to have managed to be understandable despite my bad English.
First of all, I wonder why.
I do not criticize rpgm or developers.
I think I understood what you said :D