RPGM Tower of Trample [v1.18.0.4 + Standalone SC3] [Bo Wei/Koda]

[bahamut2195]

I did make an argument, you just ignored it. Why would I try to debate who does that? If you're actually interested in what I had to say just try to reread what I posted instead of asking me to repeat myself. If you're unwilling then just let it end.

From what I can discern, your main issue was that I labeled ToT as porn, which I contest it is.

You seem to think I was implying that you were acting entitled by criticizing Bo Wei's art, which I most certainly am not. In fact, I am all for critiquing the developers over whatever you want, and I have been for a long time. I largely agree with you in regards to Bo Wei's drawing, and also believe he CHOOSES to blur realistic proportions in his work, which is why I didn't argue that part of your quote: I don't disagree.

Mainly, I disagree that this being femdom/foot porn changes the fact that the models are almost always over-sexualized versions of actual people. Porn in and of itself is a fantasized version of reality, and drawn porn tends to remove reality to an extra degree than live porn regardless of fetish.

Did I misunderstand? Would you like to clarify your position or rebut any of my claims? Or would you rather throw ill defined terminology at my arguments in an attempt to belittle and dismiss them?

 

[Posadist]

Fine, let's try this again.

From what I can discern, your main issue was that I labeled ToT as porn, which I contest it is.

You seem to think I was implying that you were acting entitled by criticizing Bo Wei's art, which I most certainly am not. In fact, I am all for critiquing the developers over whatever you want, and I have been for a long time. I largely agree with you in regards to Bo Wei's drawing, and also believe he CHOOSES to blur realistic proportions in his work, which is why I didn't argue that part of your quote: I don't disagree.

Mainly, I disagree that this being femdom/foot porn changes the fact that the models are almost always over-sexualized versions of actual people. Porn in and of itself is a fantasized version of reality, and drawn porn tends to remove reality to an extra degree than live porn regardless of fetish.

Did I misunderstand? Would you like to clarify your position or rebut any of my claims? Or would you rather throw ill defined terminology at my arguments in an attempt to belittle and dismiss them?

How could anyone argue that ToT isn't porn? Don't you see how you're strawmanning me? How could anyone possibly think THAT?
You're basically saying "Oversexualization is the norm for porn games, therefore complaining about it makes no sense". That's a bandwagon fallacy because you're implying that because most people who make porn games like to make their female characters with oversexualized bodies, someone new to the porn game-making scene should probably give the female characters of their game oversexualized bodies. Just because most people who do X also do Y doesn't mean that if you do X you should probably also do Y.
I'm not an expert on porn games of any genre, that's why after making the arguement that femdom/foot fetish games have less oversexualized women in them, I knew there was a possibility that I'd be wrong, which is why I started my next point with "EVEN IF...". I also give my reason for believing that in my 3rd paragraph, when I'm talking about what purpose oversexualization in a game would serve. In that paragraph I say that I'd ESPECIALLY expect that to be the case for foot fetish games, more than pure femdom ones with some foot fetish content (ToT would be an equal mix IMO).
My next point after the "EVEN if" was that Bo Wei himself said he was against blindly putting tropes of the genre in his game, which is what I'd call oversexualization. He said it while talking about monster girls, though.
And this final part you don't seem to have read and agreed with like you claim, you clearly ignored it, so here it goes again.

I'm obviously not arguing for girls like Cobra to have tiny tits, or for Khulan's ass to be smaller, that would be stupid.

Also, saying that something is not an argument is in itself not an argument.

 

[bahamut2195]

Fine, let's try this again.

How could anyone argue that ToT isn't porn? Don't you see how you're strawmanning me? How could anyone possibly think THAT?
You're basically saying "Oversexualization is the norm for porn games, therefore complaining about it makes no sense". That's a bandwagon fallacy because you're implying that because most people who make porn games like to make their female characters with oversexualized bodies, someone new to the porn game-making scene should probably give the female characters of their game oversexualized bodies. Just because most people who do X also do Y doesn't mean that if you do X you should probably also do Y.
I'm not an expert on porn games of any genre, that's why after making the arguement that femdom/foot fetish games have less oversexualized women in them, I knew there was a possibility that I'd be wrong, which is why I started my next point with "EVEN IF...". I also give my reason for believing that in my 3rd paragraph, when I'm talking about what purpose oversexualization in a game would serve. In that paragraph I say that I'd ESPECIALLY expect that to be the case for foot fetish games, more than pure femdom ones with some foot fetish content (ToT would be an equal mix IMO).
My next point after the "EVEN if" was that Bo Wei himself said he was against blindly putting tropes of the genre in his game, which is what I'd call oversexualization. He said it while talking about monster girls, though.
And this final part you don't seem to have read and agreed with like you claim, you clearly ignored it, so here it goes again.

Also, saying that something is not an argument is in itself not an argument.

I would argue instead that very few people are turning toward drawn pornography looking for realistic subjects. Part of the appeal of artwork is the ability to create unrealistic models and scenarios, as well as the ability to provide them relatively cheaply and cater it to your own desire. So while it is true that a developer certainly does not NEED to create unrealistic proportions within their content, and they are certainly free to do so if they so desire, in a sense they would have a better likelihood of success were they to tailor their product toward the masses, and not away from them. However, if you are of the mind that realism is more important to your taste, then so be it. You are entitled to voice your opinion.

To be fair, you expanded far more in your last post in regards to your original claims about foot/femdom games being an exception. I hope you can see where you may have muddled your argument somewhat, considering the following:

"after making the arguement that femdom/foot fetish games have less oversexualized women in them, I knew there was a possibility that I'd be wrong" which you did not claim in the first post, and:

" He said it while talking about monster girls, though." which you also failed to include in your original quoting of my post, which ironically was not even aimed at your comments, and was in response to an entirely different user.

I think we will have to leave this here, as we clearly have a difference of opinion on what kind of artwork is optimal for this genre of game that isn't likely to be resolved, and we are clogging up the thread with a tangential argument. We can pick this up in pm if you'd like to continue.

 

[LeonOne994]

Did people start arguing again? Ah the good old days

 

[bahamut2195]

Did people start arguing again? Ah the good old days

In honor of the late zazzaro, RIP.

 

[Foot Fetish Fan]

I hope they head back to the "regular" fight style. I'd love to see a vanilla MMA/boxing themed character over getting my head stuck between two swords any day. What's next? actually getting decapitated and getting our heads wrapped in rotten pantyhose?

This also struck me as odd but not since Karen. It actually happened as soon as I was able to purchase offensive & defense gear for my alter ego. Why? Well, as you already correctly explained ToT has a martial arts tournament theme and so I was puzzled with the discovery that swords & different types of armour would increase my fighting abilities in said contest while the protagonist is ALWAYS depicted to wear just a karateka uniform to honour his Fire dojo.
What would have been a better solution? It would have been better to handle the affair like the developers of Borderlands did it. Instead of allowing their characters to wear armour in a desert environment (stupid idea by the way), they decided to give the character a portable force field for protection. In that sense, Ethan could have gained better defensive gear by purchasing various dojo uniforms with magical abilities as magic is common in the ToT universe. Such a dojo uniform would not interfere with his martial art skills as would for example a bulky plate armour.
What would be acceptable to replace swords? I would have used different kind of magic bracers amplifying each of Ethan´s close combat blows. When you choose each round what kind of an attack to use, the protagonist never uses a sword slash but nonetheless improves his martial prowess by wielding it. It´s just silly.
But this whole affair is not a deal breaker for me. The main emphasis for me is to get owned by beautiful ladies (about 100 losses vs. Yvonne) and enjoy everything about foot fetish related content.

 

[bahamut2195]

This also struck me as odd but not since Karen. It actually happened as soon as I was able to purchase offensive & defense gear for my alter ego. Why? Well, as you already correctly explained ToT has a martial arts tournament theme and so I was puzzled with the discovery that swords & different types of armour would increase my fighting abilities in said contest while the protagonist is ALWAYS depicted to wear just a karateka uniform to honour his Fire dojo.
What would have been a better solution? It would have been better to handle the affair like the developers of Borderlands did it. Instead of allowing their characters to wear armour in a desert environment (stupid idea by the way), they decided to give the character a portable force field for protection. In that sense, Ethan could have gained better defensive gear by purchasing various dojo uniforms with magical abilities as magic is common in the ToT universe. Such a dojo uniform would not interfere with his martial art skills as would for example a bulky plate armour.
What would be acceptable to replace swords? I would have used different kind of magic bracers amplifying each of Ethan´s close combat blows. When you choose each round what kind of an attack to use, the protagonist never uses a sword slash but nonetheless improves his martial prowess by wielding it. It´s just silly.
But this whole affair is not a deal breaker for me. The main emphasis for me is to get owned by beautiful ladies (about 100 losses vs. Yvonne) and enjoy everything about foot fetish related content.

Swords have always been a weird choice to me for games like this. I suppose you have to work with what RPGMaker gives you for resources though. Maybe treated gloves would have been better? IDK, sort of a minor thing overall, but it is a bit odd when you imagine Ethan bringing a bladed weapon to a fistfight when he is a martial artist. Though I suppose almost half of his opponents use or have blades as well.

 

[bootsfetish59]

Swords have always been a weird choice to me for games like this. I suppose you have to work with what RPGMaker gives you for resources though. Maybe treated gloves would have been better? IDK, sort of a minor thing overall, but it is a bit odd when you imagine Ethan bringing a bladed weapon to a fistfight when he is a martial artist. Though I suppose almost half of his opponents use or have blades as well.

Idem. Gloves or fighting staff...

 

[Reapergod36]

Hand drawn models on a porn site are oversexualized?! Say it ain't so!!!!!!!

Having an issue with the artwork is fine, but expecting the style to change over time is probably unrealistic. It's one thing when discussing a new artist who is still learning how they want to draw and experimenting, but Bo Wei is pretty established and experienced. He has a style that isn't likely to evolve much at this point, whether you are a fan or not. Complaining that the models have unrealistic proportions though is somewhat silly though, isn't it? That has to describe something like 94% of the artwork on this, and almost every other, porn based site ever.

In a genre where the average drawn cup size is approximately FF and the average dick is 14 inches, oversexualized models are more the norm than the exception, no?

Try to be respectful of other members on the site. We're voicing our opinions just as you are free to do the same. But you don't have to be a smart ass about it.

 

[Reapergod36]

@Reapergod36 Where did you find these series ? I like this one because the fetishes are unpopular and they are a few game with that (extreme) kinks. You think they are oversexualized but I think this is the the goal. The target is like reader of doujin which contain that kind of art ^^

It seems to me you are just the target of this game. Are you even a feet/pantyhose or watersport fetishist? Honestly for these fetishists this game is Heaven ^^

Nevertheless I agree with you on the fact the art did not really improve. I could complain about the eyes. Same mistake from 1 to 3. But with Karen (6th) I must confess he did improve, I don't know where do you point the cursor of what is improvement but he still definitely improved ! ^^

I think too about the gameplay's question. I'm quite hopeless about it, a game/story need to evolve at some point. They went there because they try to represent a Mistress who is much cruel (and beautiful) & powerful and that pure martial arts are limited.

I precise I did discover this game at the 5th floor so I did not live the evolution of this game.

Have a nice day everyone

Personally I can't name all the kinks I'm into. But I can name a few often hard-hitters for me. Foot Fetish (usually forced), Non-con, humiliation, extreme musk, musk, domming in general when it's done well, herms when done well, males when done well. When I say done well I mean not just the most basic elements like a male being all about put dick in hole and that's all they are for some reason.

A lot of this game can be off-putting simply from a gameplay perspective. Grinding is boring plain and simple. Missing out on content for me personally is a bit shit(speaking specifically of Karen scenes). The game just became a slog due to updates and having to play the whole game again(more of a coming in during development issue than a designer's issue). The characters can be a bit overwhelming with their themes. The first boss was decent, she thought she was better than you and wanted to pound that into your head and expose your fetishes. The second boss was more focused on being disgusted by how easily men cowed to their fetishes and in some cases were weak in general(due to not being able to beat her, furthering her dellusion). The issue with a lot of these bosses is it went really really far into weird places with background lore. The fourth boss eats people, I'm not into guro nor cannibals sorry. The first boss slowly became about willing servitude which I'm not much for femdom when the sub is a spineless loser. The whole point for me was that it was a protagonist fighting back and losing or winning. For me there is no point in domming someone who doesn't resist(from a roleplay perspective, not real life).

The fifth boss seemed alright but she had a lot of mystical elements to her that took me out of the original grounded martial arts aspect the fights had. The second boss was cheating with using a taser in her boot for example. The third boss had this weird stocking suit of impossible dimensions that took me out of it as well. Her backstory was decent at least. Anyways, that's some of my reasoning kink wise why I just fell out of enjoying the game and following it's development. Hope this helped understand my position.

I enjoyed Mrs. Claus but only because I simply downloaded a save to see her content and glimpsed into the nightmare that was that minigame. If I had played that minigame, I probably would hate her too. But that said, Mrs. Claus' art was really low quality.

 

[bahamut2195]

Try to be respectful of other members on the site. We're voicing our opinions just as you are free to do the same. But you don't have to be a smart ass about it.

Thanks mom

 

[bahamut2195]

Idem. Gloves or fighting staff...

I like the idea of a quarterstaff or something similar. Those and spears don't get enough love as combat weapons in videogames. It's always swords.

 

[dudunin]

@Reapergod36 I finally understand your POV. I discover some english words too ^^
When you say 'it went really really far into weird places' I'm just thinking it's more like Japanese or Chinese hentai style.
In fact femdom's category on hentai website is more violent and some dounjin are more illegal (if pedo (shotacon and non-con about a little child) and zoophilia are illegal in your country too).

I heard one character was based on a Japanese character. Oh and I agree about Mrs Santa, I finally did her content and minigames are difficult (not impossible but too much difficult) and yeah art is poor.

@bahamut2195 I don't think it's important here. I mean we don't see weapons. I wonder if it would be more simple or difficult to animate or imagining spears' fights. Videogames as ToT are based on rounds rights. Spears' combat too. Would it be more logical to use some spears ?

 

[bahamut2195]

@Reapergod36 I finally understand your POV. I discover some english words too ^^
When you say 'it went really really far into weird places' I'm just thinking it's more like Japanese or Chinese hentai style.
In fact femdom's category on hentai website is more violent and some dounjin are more illegal (if pedo (shotacon and non-con about a little child) and zoophilia are illegal in your country too).

I heard one character was based on a Japanese character. Oh and I agree about Mrs Santa, I finally did her content and minigames are difficult (not impossible but too much difficult) and yeah art is poor.

@bahamut2195 I don't think it's important here. I mean we don't see weapons. I wonder if it would be more simple or difficult to animate or imagining spears' fights. Videogames as ToT are based on rounds rights. Spears' combat too. Would it be more logical to use some spears ?

No, you are right. It isn't important for ToT, or most RPGM games, and would definitely not be worth animating. It's more a general gripe with games in general and their overuse of swords.

I do find it a very small, strange detail that the characters in the game have weapons they seemingly never use, but its such a minor detail that it isn't worth anything more than musing over.

 

[Greycrimson]

Try to be respectful of other members on the site. We're voicing our opinions just as you are free to do the same. But you don't have to be a smart ass about it.

Nothing wrong with a bit of banter, doubt anyone would be offended by that.

 

[Foot Fetish Fan]

I like the idea of a quarterstaff or something similar. Those and spears don't get enough love as combat weapons in videogames. It's always swords.

Swords are symbols of power and might. In addition, they are the most practical weapons to have for melee combat because the wielder is able to parry with it without having to rely on a cumbersome shield. So you won´t have many characters wielding flails, maces, etc. because these weapons are only superior to a sword in specific circumstances.

 

[h-kingu]

I like the idea of a quarterstaff or something similar. Those and spears don't get enough love as combat weapons in videogames. It's always swords.

while i do love swords, maybe too much, I'd love some games where the main weapon is a staff or a lance I mean fights with staffs are cool right?

 

[bahamut2195]

Swords are symbols of power and might. In addition, they are the most practical weapons to have for melee combat because the wielder is able to parry with it without having to rely on a cumbersome shield. So you won´t have many characters wielding flails, maces, etc. because these weapons are only superior to a sword in specific circumstances.

True, except a sword takes years to master and are relatively fragile weapons. Spears, maces, crossbows etc. are far more practical for an army. Only the elite and the wealthy were trained in the use of swords. Common rank and file were not. Spear and Pike formations were far more valuable than individual swordsmen anyway, especially against cavalry charges.

I get it though, swords are decorative, fancy and they have a mystique about them that's been nurtured throughout history. I get why they are prevalent in games and movies, I just wish they weren't quite as prevalent, know what I mean?

 

[Arctif]

Swords are symbols of power and might. In addition, they are the most practical weapons to have for melee combat because the wielder is able to parry with it without having to rely on a cumbersome shield. So you won´t have many characters wielding flails, maces, etc. because these weapons are only superior to a sword in specific circumstances.

Pole weapons are the most practical for combat. If we're talking on-foot melee combat, then Halberds were probably your apex weapon. Long reach and versatility.

It's surprisingly effective to defend with a polearm, even a quarterstaff, and there's a surprising amount of advantage given to the person who has more reach.

EDIT: Also swinging polearms giving you that extra power, like a lever.

 

[Posadist]

Swords are typical weapons in medieval settings.
Fantasy worlds tend to have medieval settings.
RPGs tend to be set inside fantasy worlds.
This game is made in RPG Maker.
Mystery solved, it's tropes all the way down. Tropes aren't inherently good or bad themselves, it depends on how they're used. Takes us back to the previous conversation, eh?