VN Ren'Py Triple Ex [v0.24] [Azrayal]

[Content_Consumer]

Well said. I was thinking the same thing. Deb would do ANYTHING to make sure her brother whom she loves more than anything was safe... even if she personally felt it was wrong. It was sold to her as being the right thing to do.

So why did she still keep it secret for YEARS after he got released, once there was no more danger?

No one seems to be able to come up with an answer as to why, once the "danger" had passed, she kept Milly hidden from MC AND kept up the lie to Milly that the MC no longer cared about her.

Deb even spent the whole time MC was no longer locked up in contact with both ex-wife and Milly and yet at no point told either MC or milly the truth.
The initial "plan" you mention was only supposed to go on for a few months until MC no longer was focus on bringing the "truth" about his situation to light, the 6 years after that were all Deb and the rest of the family [Milly aside] driving the MC to drink and depression and Milly to hate MC.

Neither of those outcomes sound like "doing ANYTHING" to keep MC safe.

What those actions sound like are those of a selfish twat who wants MC to herself and is actually please Milly and ex-ife seem permanently out of the picture.

 

[M'95]

So why did she still keep it secret for YEARS after he got released, once there was no more danger?

No one seems to be able to come up with an answer as to why, once the "danger" had passed, she kept Milly hidden from MC AND kept up the lie to Milly that the MC no longer cared about her.

Deb even spent the whole time MC was no longer locked up in contact with both ex-wife and Milly and yet at no point told either MC or milly the truth.
The initial "plan" you mention was only supposed to go on for a few months until MC no longer was focus on bringing the "truth" about his situation to light, the 6 years after that were all Deb and the rest of the family [Milly aside] driving the MC to drink and depression and Milly to hate MC.

Neither of those outcomes sound like "doing ANYTHING" to keep MC safe.

What those actions sound like are those of a selfish twat who wants MC to herself and is actually please Milly and ex-ife seem permanently out of the picture.

Because people "stuck between a rock and a hard place" make mistakes? I mean It's not like the MC was a paragon of mental health after he was released from jail.

Don't get me wrong I (MC) also felt betrayed by Deb ( ex and mother), but I do see do see Deb's dillema, I have way more problems woth the mother, she seems cold and manipulative.

 

[Content_Consumer]

Because people "stuck between a rock and a hard place" make mistakes? I mean It's not like the MC was a paragon of mental health after he was released from jail.

Don't get me wrong I (MC) also felt betrayed by Deb ( ex and mother), but I do see do see Deb's dillema, I have way more problems woth the mother, she seems cold and manipulative.

Look, I agree it was a tough spot, but mainly I'm asking the people who keep saying Deb was only ever doing it for the MC or she always had the MC's back or she would do anything for the MC and things like that.
I've agreed that its plausible she goes along with the initial plan, even goes along with it a bit longer than intended but where I'm coming unstuck is once the ex-wife marries some other dude and starts telling Milly that MC no longer cares about her and doesn't want to see her .etc

Then it gets worse 5 years down the road when MC is out of lock-up and Deb starts being friendly with ex-wife and Milly again, knowing full-well the rest of the family is having full contact with ex-wife and Milly too, even has a house there as well, and yet still says nothing to the MC.

Deb keeps up that contact for nearly 3 years after MC is out and says and does nothing to reunite them.

These are the things I want the people who say "Deb has only the best intention for the MC" to explain.

If she'd kept up the ruse for just months or a year or so that'd be one thing, but the whole situation went on for nearly 8 years, about 5 when MC was locked up and nearly 3 after he got out. [If my memory of the time-line is correct]

8 years isn't "opps I made a mistake".

 

[-CookieMonster666-]

That wasn't her call. She went along with others who took advantage of her not being the brightest woman. The mc's mom dad and bitch ex wife are way more to blame imo

Edit: it was sold to her as "saving her beloved brother" and of course because she loves and would do anything for him she went along. Yeah she is not smart but don't try to claim she did anything purposely against the mc...

That is where some of us differ in opinion, for many what Deb did is actually worse as raping the wife example you gave would have been. She broke trust so deeply by her choices that it is not easy to repair and her continuing those lies after plans changed and even after the Ex (possibly so called) died makes it even worse. Even if we get she was not jumping for joy to out herself, at least if she had taken her bitter medicine herself it would have made it easier to get that trust back over time. Edit: Thing is she did not have MC''s back in the one thing that mattered most to him and she knew that, which also casts doubt over rest of her behavior and whether she was not just selfish there instead of having his back rest of the time. Not that MC has been perfect by a long shot either.

Now I have never been Deb's greatest fan for quite a few reasons and wondered a bit from start about her role. It seems one of my earlier suspicions that she was partly played was right, but I am still not sure if part of her behavior was not also partly out of anger to MC is not true. I remember dev liked an old post of mine that though the Ex and Deb love the MC there is also anger and maybe some hate there, which might also have informed their actions and choices.

Well dev will in the end decide Debs fate concerning MC and if she survives at all. Personally I think she will survive for reasons I set out before. Whether they get back together or dev will leave that as a player choice depending on their view in the end I have no idea. For me, I do not see a good fast path back into MC's graces and at best a slow long path of thawing a bit first and then a real long time before enough trust can be reestablished if ever.

I even forget about her relation with Ex since beyond her not telling I do not think MC cares to much about that in first place and would have shared them together happily enough if had known, but in the Milly situation she already took three strikes in my eyes.

Edit: Now the Ex turning up back alive could throw even more spammers in those works. In a way I hope she does not, MC does deserve some rest and quiet time to heal up and get back to a working life and then decide if he wants Deb to be a part of that from a distance or a more closer role.

Well said. I was thinking the same thing. Deb would do ANYTHING to make sure her brother whom she loves more than anything was safe... even if she personally felt it was wrong. It was sold to her as being the right thing to do.

Because people "stuck between a rock and a hard place" make mistakes? I mean It's not like the MC was a paragon of mental health after he was released from jail.

Don't get me wrong I (MC) also felt betrayed by Deb ( ex and mother), but I do see do see Deb's dillema, I have way more problems woth the mother, she seems cold and manipulative.

Look, I agree it was a tough spot, but mainly I'm asking the people who keep saying Deb was only ever doing it for the MC or she always had the MC's back or she would do anything for the MC and things like that.
I've agreed that its plausible she goes along with the initial plan, even goes along with it a bit longer than intended but where I'm coming unstuck is once the ex-wife marries some other dude and starts telling Milly that MC no longer cares about her and doesn't want to see her .etc

Then it gets worse 5 years down the road when MC is out of lock-up and Deb starts being friendly with ex-wife and Milly again, knowing full-well the rest of the family is having full contact with ex-wife and Milly too, even has a house there as well, and yet still says nothing to the MC.

Deb keeps up that contact for nearly 3 years after MC is out and says and does nothing to reunite them.

These are the things I want the people who say "Deb has only the best intention for the MC" to explain.

If she'd kept up the ruse for just months or a year or so that'd be one thing, but the whole situation went on for nearly 8 years, about 5 when MC was locked up and nearly 3 after he got out. [If my memory of the time-line is correct]

8 years isn't "opps I made a mistake".

Given that all of this behind-the-back stuff done to the MC was only recently discovered, and since we're playing from the MC's perspective, I believe we all probably have a flawed perception of things. I don't mean that our opinions on what has been revealed are flawed per se, but more that what we think we know could be flawed.

If the MC didn't know any of this stuff until now, what's to say there isn't actually more — actions that have yet to be revealed; external influences that may have forced the family's hands; holes in the MC's recollection of things, making him come to incorrect conclusions? I don't know that I trust the MC to be a trustworthy source of information in the game, at least when it comes to this. I think it may make more sense and/or be either more excusable or less excusable as more of the story is revealed. I would guess some of our opinions (extremely possibly my own) might change as the novel continues.

 

[Content_Consumer]

I don't know that I trust the MC to be a trustworthy source of information in the game, at least when it comes to this.

You could be correct, however don't forget that the explanation of events so far has mostly come from 3 sources that aren't the MC.

ex-wife letter
Deb [after photo revelation .etc]
Mother conversation at the house she owns for the sole purpose of keeping close contact with ex-wife/Milly.

Also we know the mother has been working if not against then at least behind the back of the MC since before he was even married by taking and sending those pictures to the now ex-wife. This furthers the validity of my suggestion that the mother has an interest in getting rid of the [ex]wife in order to make her own fantasy more likely to come true.
Equally Milly would have presented yet another barrier to the mother getting her desired outcome once they became aware of her infatuation situation, so keeping her out of the picture worked in the mother's favor too.
Also then don't forget the focus, in the latest update, of sharing all the secrets except the mother failed to share hers, at least not even close to all of them, and then legged it as soon as she could.

You're right that we don't have ALL the information, as an example for all we know, as per my above paragraph, the "accident" that supposedly killed the ex-wife could have been set up by the mother to get her out of the picture for good and not the guy the MC has as the main suspect. It seems unlikely but then at this point I wouldn't put anything past that bitch and on top of that she made it clear she'd do anything she thought necessary during that conversation on the way to the beach house so ...

But that all aside, even Deb never offered a real apology or even explanation as to why she went along with and helped to keep the MC and Milly hidden from each other for the near 3 year AFTER he got released.
She did say that she'd do things differently if she had the choice again, which says to me that she knows she had a choice and that she could have done something about the situation much earlier.

 

[-CookieMonster666-]

You could be correct, however don't forget that the explanation of events so far has mostly come from 3 sources that aren't the MC.

ex-wife letter
Deb [after photo revelation .etc]
Mother conversation at the house she owns for the sole purpose of keeping close contact with ex-wife/Milly.

Also we know the mother has been working if not against then at least behind the back of the MC since before he was even married by taking and sending those pictures to the now ex-wife. This furthers the validity of my suggestion that the mother has an interest in getting rid of the [ex]wife in order to make her own fantasy more likely to come true.
Equally Milly would have presented yet another barrier to the mother getting her desired outcome once they became aware of her infatuation situation, so keeping her out of the picture worked in the mother's favor too.
Also then don't forget the focus, in the latest update, of sharing all the secrets except the mother failed to share hers, at least not even close to all of them, and then legged it as soon as she could.

You're right that we don't have ALL the information, as an example for all we know, as per my above paragraph, the "accident" that supposedly killed the ex-wife could have been set up by the mother to get her out of the picture for good and not the guy the MC has as the main suspect. It seems unlikely but then at this point I wouldn't put anything past that bitch and on top of that she made it clear she'd do anything she thought necessary during that conversation on the way to the beach house so ...

But that all aside, even Deb never offered a real apology or even explanation as to why she went along with and helped to keep the MC and Milly hidden from each other for the near 3 year AFTER he got released.
She did say that she'd do things differently if she had the choice again, which says to me that she knows she had a choice and that she could have done something about the situation much earlier.

You're talking in theoreticals just as much as I am, so I don't see any point in continuing to go round and round. The "explanation of the events" is, again, based on limited information. I really don't think any of us know as much as we think we do. Assume all you want, but I'm pretty sure a lot more is to be revealed. Yes, the family might be a bunch of selfish bitches, but it could just as easily be deeper than what we've learned.

 

[DA22]

You're talking in theoreticals just as much as I am, so I don't see any point in continuing to go round and round. The "explanation of the events" is, again, based on limited information. I really don't think any of us know as much as we think we do. Assume all you want, but I'm pretty sure a lot more is to be revealed. Yes, the family might be a bunch of selfish bitches, but it could just as easily be deeper than what we've learned.

Problem stays though that even if Deb and the family would have good reasons in their eyes to do as they did, that does not mean that MC or we as players have to agree with them or accept the fact that they even had the right to make that decision by themselves considering what happened and how it influenced both Milly and MC. It was Mc's decision to make, not theirs.

The breach of trust is still there and taking away a decision that should have been MC's and not theirs even if their reason was the best in the world, from MC's pov it would still be a betrayal by Deb to him. The person he trusted most in the world, that is the position Deb is in now and what she will have to deal with, whether she was right or wrong. Edit: The fact she never owned up to it herself until MC found out himself only makes that worse as well and robbed her of a chance both to explain and show she did trust MC.

To me she was in the wrong even if she had a great reason and until now I saw nothing in story to change my mind and unlikely I will even if it was to save MC's life. Intention only matters so far, actions taken speak louder and yeah Deb explaining her intentions may help some if MC can buy them partially and empathize with them to a degree. Her being used may also help with that a bit if that comes out, but only a bit. Deb did not just tell a little white lie and she kept supporting the lie way too long after to be easily forgivable, whatever her reason or how good it might be from her side. It is not from MC's side and not easy to find one that would work from his side unless it was Milly's life she saved with that and that is not the impression we get or that it helped Milly.

 

[Spfjolietjake]

So why did she still keep it secret for YEARS after he got released, once there was no more danger?

No one seems to be able to come up with an answer as to why, once the "danger" had passed, she kept Milly hidden from MC AND kept up the lie to Milly that the MC no longer cared about her.

Deb even spent the whole time MC was no longer locked up in contact with both ex-wife and Milly and yet at no point told either MC or milly the truth.
The initial "plan" you mention was only supposed to go on for a few months until MC no longer was focus on bringing the "truth" about his situation to light, the 6 years after that were all Deb and the rest of the family [Milly aside] driving the MC to drink and depression and Milly to hate MC.

Neither of those outcomes sound like "doing ANYTHING" to keep MC safe.

What those actions sound like are those of a selfish twat who wants MC to herself and is actually please Milly and ex-ife seem permanently out of the picture.

I never got the memo the "danger" passed please share it because last I knew there was still danger for everyone...

 

[Shyguy1369]

So why did she still keep it secret for YEARS after he got released, once there was no more danger?

No one seems to be able to come up with an answer as to why, once the "danger" had passed, she kept Milly hidden from MC AND kept up the lie to Milly that the MC no longer cared about her.

Deb even spent the whole time MC was no longer locked up in contact with both ex-wife and Milly and yet at no point told either MC or milly the truth.
The initial "plan" you mention was only supposed to go on for a few months until MC no longer was focus on bringing the "truth" about his situation to light, the 6 years after that were all Deb and the rest of the family [Milly aside] driving the MC to drink and depression and Milly to hate MC.

Neither of those outcomes sound like "doing ANYTHING" to keep MC safe.

What those actions sound like are those of a selfish twat who wants MC to herself and is actually please Milly and ex-ife seem permanently out of the picture.

You have been answered, you just don't like the answer.

She was coerced by her mother and Marie (Deb's also lover) to go along with things. By the time the MC gets out, and knowing his past, it's too late to just tell him. She knows she's deceived him and only wants for him to be happy with her. She cares too much about her promise to her now dead lover (Marie, the MCs ex-wife) and her mum to break the promise she made to them.

She kept her promise to others all the while trying to figure out how to deal with shit herself. She's no pinnacle of saint hood, she knows it, but she still did what her lover and mother told her to do... DESPITE knowing how it would affect her brother, because they CONVINCED her it was the right thing to do.

AND ... if you read the story, he's not out of shit with the situation he was in when he went to jail. So things are not 'safe' as you say.

Finally... at the end of the day, if you hate Deb so much, then you must be loving the fact she's being treated like shit by the MC.
Some of us (maybe more than some) actually REALLY like Deb and understand her. So again, if you don't like the answer, it's on you. But your question has been answered.

 

[Shyguy1369]

I never got the memo the "danger" passed please share it because last I knew there was still danger for everyone...

Amen brother. Amen.

I just said the same

 

[DA22]

You have been answered, you just don't like the answer.

She was coerced by her mother and Marie (Deb's also lover) to go along with things. By the time the MC gets out, and knowing his past, it's too late to just tell him. She knows she's deceived him and only wants for him to be happy with her. She cares too much about her promise to her now dead lover (Marie, the MCs ex-wife) and her mum to break the promise she made to them.

She kept her promise to others all the while trying to figure out how to deal with shit herself. She's no pinnacle of saint hood, she knows it, but she still did what her lover and mother told her to do... DESPITE knowing how it would affect her brother, because they CONVINCED her it was the right thing to do.

AND ... if you read the story, he's not out of shit with the situation he was in when he went to jail. So things are not 'safe' as you say.

Finally... at the end of the day, if you hate Deb so much, then you must be loving the fact she's being treated like shit by the MC.
Some of us (maybe more than some) actually REALLY like Deb and understand her. So again, if you don't like the answer, it's on you. But your question has been answered.

Well MC in my mind is right to treat her like shit, she deserves it from his side (if possibly not from hers) and I even think he was pretty laid back about it actually. Deb did betray him by choosing others instead of having his back and trusting him, whether you like that or not and broke her word to him as well in the process and not over something unimportant to him either.

Well that has consequences, whether you like that as a Deb fan or not, she chose her side and now is paying the price for it and I hope it will not be easy for her to gain forgiveness for her actions from MC for her betrayal that she continued. It was her choice in the end to betray him and continue to do so which she did from MC's pov whatever her reasons, nobody elses.

Edit: I could also add that we have not seen anything in game that Deb had been working towards a situation where Milly would be reunited somehow with MC in the time after she reconnected with ex Wife last few years, she seems to have been quite happy with the status quo and to keep it as was instead of what we can gather from her actions in game. Now that at least could have helped redeem Deb a bit, but even after also finding out how bad Milly had taken what happened she offered no support or tried to change things at least to advantage of Mc or Milly for that matter, but just continued as if all was fine from her pov. So we have to assume it was fine for her and acceptable or she would have acted differently.

 

[Content_Consumer]

but she still did what her lover and mother told her to do... DESPITE knowing how it would affect her brother, because they CONVINCED her it was the right thing to do.

Ah so now we're getting somewhere, we've changed from "it was all for the MC, she has always had his back, she'd do anything for the MC" and so on to "she did it for her mother and lover" despite knowing how much pain and grief she was causing MC and Milly.

As to convincing her it was the right thing? I'm pretty sure she didn't think that ever and MC's mother said Deb was against it from the start but did it anyway.
That was the whole reason Deb cut off contact with ex-wife for the first 5 years, it was only the last 2-3 years she was back in contact.

 

[Content_Consumer]

I never got the memo the "danger" passed please share it because last I knew there was still danger for everyone...

The danger was that MC kept writing letters trying to expose what was going on. Thats why ex-wife left in the first place, supposedly.

I'm still not even convinced there is any current danger, I don't even think ex-wife is really dead, I think it was all faked.

 

[Spfjolietjake]

The danger was that MC kept writing letters trying to expose what was going on. Thats why ex-wife left in the first place, supposedly.

I'm still not even convinced there is any current danger, I don't even think ex-wife is really dead, I think it was all faked.

I agree about the ex wife because evil never dies. But there is still a danger. Milly is being guarded for good reasons...

 

[Content_Consumer]

But there is still a danger. Milly is being guarded for good reasons..

Which are? [aside from generic rich-person needs security type stuff]

Until we know if the ex-wife was actually killed, or at least if the boat was blown up by a sinister 3rd party at least, do we have other reasons to "know" or even strongly suspect there is real danger?

Its a genuine question because I can't recall seeing other evidence besides anything ex-wife said, which as I've conjectured, could all have been a setup/faked for some other reason.

If I've forgotten something then please let me know, like I said, genuine query.

 

[eddie987]

I agree about the ex wife because evil never dies. But there is still a danger. Milly is being guarded for good reasons...

A danger that has nothing to do with the MC's past, but the stepfather that moron of an ex-wife married... She took her daughter away from her father to "protect" them both, just to make their lives miserable and eventually put her in grave danger anyway. And she knew all about it, otherwise she wouldn't have written that letter before her "death".

 

[Spfjolietjake]

Which are? [aside from generic rich-person needs security type stuff]

Until we know if the ex-wife was actually killed, or at least if the boat was blown up by a sinister 3rd party at least, do we have other reasons to "know" or even strongly suspect there is real danger?

Its a genuine question because I can't recall seeing other evidence besides anything ex-wife said, which as I've conjectured, could all have been a setup/faked for some other reason.

If I've forgotten something then please let me know, like I said, genuine query.

Tbh I'm not sure they spelled out the mcguffin but the daughter is in possession of something a lot of bad people want and the mc is there to protect and find it first...

 

[Content_Consumer]

Tbh I'm not sure they spelled out the mcguffin but the daughter is in possession of something a lot of bad people want and the mc is there to protect and find it first...

I just went and re-read it, the daughter isn't in possession of anything as far as anyone knows.
The ex-wife said in the letter that the supposed "blackmailers" may believe she is, but ex-wife only said that she'd hidden an item that gay-husband had told her to hide, not that it was the information that the supposed blackmailers were looking for or that it was even hidden anywhere near the house much less in daughter's possession.

Ex-wife even said she had no idea what said information was.


I'll also say that we still don't even have any confirmation that there ever was any blackmail, blackmailers or even that ex-wife and gay-husband are dead.

All we have is an exploded boat, some DNA evidence that *suggests* that ex-wife and gay-husband were on the boat when it exploded, a letter that was conveniently prepared right before supposed death that could just be even more lies and an MC+daughter who have a family full of treacherous shits that can't ever be trusted again.

Oh also we have a lawyer who must have known that the entire family other than MC had remained in contact with ex-wife and daughter and as far as I recall didn't deem that information important to mention MC at any point, going so far as arranging travel for Deb behind MC's back.
So basically another snake that can't be trusted.


BTW MC's theory about Sanford being behind the attack can't be correct, it wouldn't make sense to target ex-wife and gay-husband in order to get back at MC for shooting Sanford's son, it would only make sense if MC was still with ex-wife and daughter.
Its a red herring.


Re-reading the early part of the story has reminded me of a few other things too;

Firstly, on the tarmac after MC boards the jet during the conversation between Bart and Deb, Deb asks if ex-wife had told him, he said she had, Deb says she would be annoyed if MC ever found out and Bart assured her that MC would never hear it from his lips.
Now its not explained at the time what they are talking about but it clearly can't relate to the previous topic they were talking about since in the scene before that Bart already lets them know that he is aware of MC and debs "special" relationship.
So in light of more recent revelations it really can only mean they were talking about how Deb has remained in contact with ex-wife and Milly and didn't want Bart, or anyone, telling MC.

Secondly, When MC discovers Astrid is on the plane she reveals that she specifically chosen for the job, the "American guy" that approached her had specifically said she was just the person he was looking for.
This indicates even more strongly that this was all being set up well in advance and makes it look even less likely ex-wife and gay-husband are dead, rather it looks like its some other elaborate plan at work.

I'm not even convinced Astrid ever worked for a commercial airline and just happened to live right next door.
She seems innocent when everything is taken at face value, but its all very convenient, she just happens to move in next door, instantly start hooking up, then at just the right time she suddenly gets a "job offer" and turns up working for ex-wife and gay-husband, she's immediately not only aware of MC and Deb's relationship but also totally fine with it, then she immediately needs rescuing once MC arrives in USA which gives a great reason for her to move in with MC and Milly after which she initially seems upset because MC was again having sex behind her back with someone else but very quickly calms down and decides she's fine with MC hooking up other people as long as he tells her.

After re-reading everything and paying closer attention I wouldn't be surprised if Astrid is a plant, working for ex-wife, as part of this elaborate death hoax.

Sure it could just be a coincidence, but really its all very convenient.


Edit;

This line from Deb is hyper-amusing in retrospect, knowing what we do now.



she spent years standing by and watching ... didn't seem to have so much of a problem with it when it was anyone but the MC doing the lying.
Such a 2-faced hypocritical bitch.

 

[pochops]

This is too yummy not to share -

 

[snarkster1558]

Wonder if Deb comes out of the fog with amnesia and is unable to remember her betrayal? I'd also wonder if she might forget having hooked up with the MC, but that ran too far back & too deep.