Ren'Py What a Legend! [v0.7.03] [MagicNuts]

[moskyx]

All this talking of bugs...
How is it even possible to have bugs in this game?
Its story is completly linear - its not like you could choose between many different paths, combinations et ceterea that could cause complex intermingleling and thereby breaking your playthrough.
So how is it freaking possible to have half a workingyear worth of bugs in the game??

Because, while this game's story is indeed 'linear', other areas add a high level of complexity (most of times, without even breaking your playthrough, which makes finding and fixing them even more tricky). Here you have a couple of lengthy explanations about 'posing', one of the usual suspects regarding bugs in this game. Plus all the polishing work is bound to create bugs due to its own nature and devs' approach. Not to mention that 'bugs' has probably become the 'one-size-fits-all' category for tasks that don't have a proper label in the tracker, like playtesting, to show they've been working on it without making any 'accountable' progress.

 

[John-18]

I have read the links you were posting and okay writing dialogue is more complex than i think.
Then don't write that much pointless dialogue.
I'm skiping most of this blabbeling anyway and yet i'm having no problem keeping track of the "story", which is why i'm able to deduce that much of the talking is unnecessary.
Keep it simple.
Work smarter, not harder!

And for the second link: thats why its so damn important to have a proper well thought plan before you start writing a scene. Of course everything will become so much more difficult if you change an already excisting scene, because many scenes afterwards will need changes too.

Work smarter, not harder!

 

[DemiMaximoff]

Okay, writing dialogue is more complex than i think.
Then don't write that much pointless dialogue.
I'm skiping most of this blabbeling anyway and yet i'm having no problem keeping track of the "story", which is why i'm able to deduce that much of the talking is unnecessary.
Keep it simple.
Work smarter, not harder!

I've said this before, some VNs should have Cliffnotes editions, where you get the basic story told in most efficient way possible and get to see all the pictures

 

[DemiMaximoff]

Because, while this game's story is indeed 'linear', other areas add a high level of complexity (most of times, without even breaking your playthrough, which makes finding and fixing them even more tricky). Here you have a couple of lengthy explanations about 'posing', one of the usual suspects regarding bugs in this game. Plus all the polishing work is bound to create bugs due to its own nature and devs' approach. Not to mention that 'bugs' has probably become the 'one-size-fits-all' category for tasks that don't have a proper label in the tracker, like playtesting, to show they've been working on it without making any 'accountable' progress.

Has the devs told you on their discord that it is actually the posing part that's weighing down on them, or is it a guess? Because seeing that no other dev talks about struggling with that thing, it kinda reflects negatively on Mr Codingnut's skills

 

[John-18]

A visual novel is a novel with lots of pictures.
What kind of novels do have lots of pictures?
Childrens books.
Therefore porn visual novels are actually books for adults who have the intellectual capacity of a kid.
No wonder i am unable to comprehend why it is such an Herculean task to make an update in less than 2.5 years.
I'm simply to dumb.
So mad respect to all those legends who are able to understand the devs.

 

[moskyx]

Has the devs told you on their discord that it is actually the posing part that's weighing down on them, or is it a guess? Because seeing that no other dev talks about struggling with that thing, it kinda reflects negatively on Mr Codingnut's skills

I was only talking about the coding complexity that originates bugs, which in this game mostly lies in posing. I don't know why people seem to be especially focused on 'bugs' even though those debugging tasks have a lower count in the tracker. As devs said in one of their comments I linked before, this time the polishing work is focused on redoing or heavily modifying scenes (which implies drawing new art, editing pre-existent art, writing new dialogs, editing pre-existing dialogs, posing those new lines and re-posing the modified ones, and sometimes even coding in new elements such as objects in the item bag or achievements), and that's the main reason behind this abnormally long polishing phase. Bugs naturally arise as new content and modifications are added (note that 'bugs' are not only technical, sometimes there are also continuity errors in drawings or foreshadowing dialogs that no longer make sense), but that's not their main concern. Storytelling and getting a satisfactory game-flow is what they have been struggling with the most.

And they don't tell me shit, I just read their weekly Patreon reports and their interactions on Discord with patrons and non-patrons. So anyone closely following the development could state the same.

 

[RT5X]

I was only talking about the coding complexity that originates bugs, which in this game mostly lies in posing. I don't know why people seem to be especially focused on 'bugs' even though those debugging tasks have a lower count in the tracker. As devs said in one of their comments I linked before, this time the polishing work is focused on redoing or heavily modifying scenes (which implies drawing new art, editing pre-existent art, writing new dialogs, editing pre-existing dialogs, posing those new lines and re-posing the modified ones, and sometimes even coding in new elements such as objects in the item bag or achievements), and that's the main reason behind this abnormally long polishing phase. Bugs naturally arise as new content and modifications are added (note that 'bugs' are not only technical, sometimes there are also continuity errors in drawings or foreshadowing dialogs that no longer make sense), but that's not their main concern. Storytelling and getting a satisfactory game-flow is what they have been struggling with the most.

And they don't tell me shit, I just read their weekly Patreon reports and their interactions on Discord with patrons and non-patrons. So anyone closely following the development could state the same.

So why does it take 2 years all of a sudden to update a game?
How is this an issue now?
How does every other game seemingly never take this long?
It's blatantly obvious the devs are milking this update.
You think after this update finally releases they'll be quick again?
I'm not some guy edging to play this game, I only played 5% of the game at best.
Like yeah complaining about the slow dev times isn't gonna make it faster but constantly defending them when it's obvious it's milking.

How the fuck are you more annoying Count Morado

 

[ugonna100]

So why does it take 2 years all of a sudden to update a game?
How is this an issue now?
How does every other game seemingly never take this long?
It's blatantly obvious the devs are milking this update.
You think after this update finally releases they'll be quick again?
I'm not some guy edging to play this game, I only played 5% of the game at best.
Like yeah complaining about the slow dev times isn't gonna make it faster but constantly defending them when it's obvious it's milking.

How the fuck are you more annoying Count Morado

What are you even on about man?
The guy you responded to answered a question on "how can there be bugs in this game when the story is linear?"
he gave a nice well thought-out answer and you and john are so confused you're inventing an opinion where there is none!

and if you're not "edging" to play the game and you can't even tell a neutral response from a defensive one... why are you even here??

 

[RT5X]

What are you even on about man?
The guy you responded to answered a question on "how can there be bugs in this game when the story is linear?"
he gave a nice well thought-out answer and you and john are so confused you're inventing an opinion where there is none!

and if you're not "edging" to play the game and you can't even tell a neutral response from a defensive one... why are you even here??

Cause he's constantly pretending like this game isn't being milked in these threads
How does an update take so long which how much they're making.
What's the point of having a Patreon for funds when the faster updates were when less money was made (not even just this game so many other games on this site suffer from this). It's annoying when this happens so many times and people in different threads pretend there's a good reason when it's just milking.

I'm here to check if the game has an update to finally start playing again cause I like the game and the art.

 

[caviarkush1]

I'm here to check if the game has an update to finally start playing again cause I like the game and the art.

The update is supposed to release at the end of November, so maybe just come back then. Everything else is just speculation.

 

[RT5X]

The update is supposed to release at the end of November, so maybe just come back then. Everything else is just speculation.

Hopefully

 

[moskyx]

Nice wall of text, but you haven't touched on the exact thing I asked. Everytime someone asks, you go off about how "posing" is an incredibly complex task, going as far as to show example code from the game.

Did the dev ever say that he is struggling with posing in specific? That is an important question.

If yes, then it reflects poorly on his skill.

If no, then it means you are being incredibly parasocial and making up detailed headcanon to justify a random developer

He did say it's a complex and time-consuming task. Some relatively recent messages on this:



And here's an older message that basically explains the same I did in my messages:


Of course, there are many more comments like these, stating that posing is way harder than writing scenes and that posing a scene with 3 characters can easily take a whole day of work only to notice the writing is not as good as he thought -which means he has to rewrite and re-pose everything again. So when people ask why this game has so many alleged bugs, I infer posing is the source of many of them since it's the most complex coding-related task. Also, I always try to remember that the 'bugs' count includes game-breaking bugs and also other things that need to be fixed, like foreshadowing dialogs when they no longer make sense due to recent changes.

About 'making up headcanon', you could also ask these people who don't even read devs' reasons (or excuses, or whatever you want to call them) before jumping to conclusions because it seems they all are expert devs who know better than anyone else what's going on in this game's development.

 

[Conrad-N7]

Yeah I don't buy it. Usually when it takes a game more than a year to get a moderately small update, it is 99% of the time milking or some real life drama happening (which during that time which they stop billing) which based on what's been happening for 2 years is clear this is done to milk their supporters and honestly I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out they didn't have a kid at all (not the first rodeo full of lies and deceit). I don't care they had a kid honestly. They have a kid while on a payroll while doing minimal work which they could easily do as home workers since their main income comes from Patreon and people don't pay you to make a game and you go fuck off to doing whatever.
No one says you can't have kids, but don't mooch money from others because 'paternity leave'. People aren't obliged to pay you for paternity leave, especially when you're not employed but payed support for the game. I bet the only reason ppl are still paying is because they are either too lazy to remove their sub, or because they don't read and are just waiting for the updates

 

[kraven1109]

I should have quoted someone but...have you seen these numbers keep jumping around? Now I know the answer: re-write re-pose re-write re-pose re-write re-pose re-write re-pose re-write re-pose re-write re-pose re-write re-pose re-write re-pose re-write re-pose re-write re-pose re-write re-pose ...

 

[Yytt11]

When the next update

 

[shazba jnr]

He did say it's a complex and time-consuming task. Some relatively recent messages on this:
View attachment 4124568
View attachment 4124569

And here's an older message that basically explains the same I did in my messages:
View attachment 4124577

Of course, there are many more comments like these, stating that posing is way harder than writing scenes and that posing a scene with 3 characters can easily take a whole day of work only to notice the writing is not as good as he thought -which means he has to rewrite and re-pose everything again. So when people ask why this game has so many alleged bugs, I infer posing is the source of many of them since it's the most complex coding-related task. Also, I always try to remember that the 'bugs' count includes game-breaking bugs and also other things that need to be fixed, like foreshadowing dialogs when they no longer make sense due to recent changes.

About 'making up headcanon', you could also ask these people who don't even read devs' reasons (or excuses, or whatever you want to call them) before jumping to conclusions because it seems they all are expert devs who know better than anyone else what's going on in this game's development.

For all that talk about all that posing...

Seriously, how long can it take to code a single line of dialogue with the various character poses? They create all the expressions up front (and reuse the shit outta them throughout the whole game), and then, for each line of text, they select an expression or gesture for each character on the screen.

In the above case of 4,700 lines of code, how long would it take to include the posing for a single line, worst case? Surely we're not talking 10 minutes of some crazy shit. That dudes smiling, that dudes crying, that dude is brainless etc. Select your expressions and paste them the fuck in (because copy and paste is your friend). How can that take more than 5 minutes per sentence, worst case? And 4,700 lines of dialogue, at a couple of minutes on average each, is like two solid weeks of coding (assuming we're talking 40 hour weeks here).

And then lets say some modifications are made, the entire story's dialogue isn't re-written, so we're not even talking another 2 weeks of posing.

And, episode 5, with its 4,700 lines of dialogue, took 7 months to do the entire episode.

If this update does come out in November, it means they will have been polishing this episode also for 7 months, and that's on top of having already spent 18 months developing it..

So this shit still doesn't add up to me.

 

[Kalimbaba]

Well what about the second round of polish?

 

[DemiMaximoff]

For all that talk about all that posing...

Seriously, how long can it take to code a single line of dialogue with the various character poses? They create all the expressions up front (and reuse the shit outta them throughout the whole game), and then, for each line of text, they select an expression or gesture for each character on the screen.

In the above case of 4,700 lines of code, how long would it take to include the posing for a single line, worst case? Surely we're not talking 10 minutes of some crazy shit. That dudes smiling, that dudes crying, that dude is brainless etc. Select your expressions and paste them the fuck in (because copy and paste is your friend). How can that take more than 5 minutes per sentence, worst case? And 4,700 lines of dialogue, at a couple of minutes on average each, is like two solid weeks of coding (assuming we're talking 40 hour weeks here).

And then lets say some modifications are made, the entire story's dialogue isn't re-written, so we're not even talking another 2 weeks of posing.

And, episode 5, with its 4,700 lines of dialogue, took 7 months to do the entire episode.

If this update does come out in November, it means they will have been polishing this episode also for 7 months, and that's on top of having already spent 18 months developing it..

So this shit still doesn't add up to me.

The issue's right there in his explanation. As I surmised, it reflects poorly on the devs' skills.

They take the first half-baked writing they have for a scene and go through making the entire scene with it, posing and all. And then, they don't like that idea anymore and all the additional work is wasted. And as he said, it isn't even contained in a single scene, the changes are so big that it sets of a chain reaction of corrections for many other scenes.

It's like if you were making a film, you schedule the actors, shoot the scenes, do the CGI, and then decide that the story needs to change and everything has to be revised. That's what they are doing, still, after all this time

 

[destroyerofassholes]

Mfer talks like he is the only person on God's green earth to pose things. This isn't the only 2D game on this site and most are not AS scammy as this one. WaL doesn't even have the best art in the business.

I don't buy it for a second. Well, I'm a pirate already, but still.

 

[Finuee]

Well, I'm a pirate already, but still.

Actually, when it comes to this game, you're not a pirate. They offer it for free in their website, so you're not actually pirating it.