What do you think about adult VN with sandbox/open world element?

[NukaCola]

I like it when its done right but many of the time it just feel tiresome. I don't like the kind of games where you have to go to sleep, wake up, shower everyday, click through the map to find a character to talk to to advanced the story. It feel like the dev add open world feature just to wasted players time and make the game feel longer than it actually is.
Example of games that have good sandbox/open world implement
- Being a Dik
- What a Legend
- Love of Magic
I won't name games with pointless/annoying sandbox element here but you will know it when you play it

 

[woody554]

good rpgs are good, bad rpgs are bad. we mostly get the latter one in these games because it takes skills people here don't have.

but the thing is, if you make a VN people complain about why there's no repeatable sex and why does the game require right choices to get the best scenes. and if you make an rpg people complain why so open world and why the game doesn't hold my hand to find all scenes.

there's no winning, there's only complaining no matter what you do. so better just ignore and make whatever you like yourself.

 

[Pretentious Goblin]

I don't consider it a VN at that point. If it has combat, I call it a RPG. If it's more about managing life skills, money and relationships, I call it a life sim. If it's about running a business and making money, I call it a management game. To me, a VN is a game with a semi-linear structure where the only interaction is making story-related choices. There might be stats like the good girl/bad girl points in GGGB, but it's still choice-based.

Anyway, I've yet to play a game where life-sim mechanics were fun and didn't end up as a soul-sucking waste of time. Games are supposed to get your mind away from the daily grind, the constant effort to maintain your decaying fleshbag which will stop its demands only when your consciousness ceases to exist.

 

[Jofur]

I'm on the other side of the fence I guess. To me it's the only way for me to properly enjoy the "VN-style" games. I just can't get into linear choose-your-own-adventure visual novels(unless they are traditionally Japanese ones like Majikoi). Too me a huge part of the draw of porn games is the freedom and player input. It might sound silly, but the act of me as a player clicking on a character to talk to them creates an immersion boost that just elevates it to a whole new experience. There's that mental link of every decision, from the smallest to the biggest having a semblance of "I choose to do that, me, not the game".

As for the tedium of stuff like energy, hunger, romance points. While certain games definitely go overboard where you spend like 80% of the game just doing chores, I do like that it creates some agency for the player to manage his or her time, especially when it comes to figuring out new scenes/content you can unlock depending on the time of day or your skills. It almost becomes like a puzzle game. Not to mention I like it when games drip feeds me and make me work for my sex-scenes. The anticipation of the reward is half the reason I play erotic games instead of just watching regular porn.

No offense to the developer since I do like his game overall, but for example Love & Sex : Second Base I would consider a game that went overboard on the life-grind tedium and it often keeps me from enjoying the game. While a game like say Man of the House it never bothered me. Summertime Saga also did it fairly well with only focusing on basic player stats and money.

 

[desmosome]

Love of Magic is the gold standard for story based sandbox. You have a lot of freedom to grind the dungeon, train stats, and find side stories, but there is a calender based system to move the plot forward. This way of doing things remedies the biggest problem with sandboxes, disjointed narrative with characters that rarely interact with each other.

BaDIK is just mostly a VN with occasional free roaming. It's not a sandbox at all.

Anyways... sandbox is one of those terms that pretty much lost it's meaning at this point lol. Anything that isn't a VN is a sandbox apparently.

 

[chainedpanda]

I actually prefer them. I have become overly cynical and planted in what I like/dislike. Waay too often do I download a game, and delete it before I ever even get past the intro for one or more of a bunch of reasons. This is something that has caused me a lot of disappointment, but honestly I don't necessarily want to change it either.

That said, sandbox/open world games force me to try the game for longer periods at a time. Which in turn causes me to want to overlook certain annoyances in which regular VNs would cause me to delete the game before giving it a second chance.

 

[Jumbi]

To me, it all depends on how well the sandbox elements are integrated in the game, much like you say in the OP, NukaCola

I do not like anything that gets too repetitive at all.

 

[Deleted member 1536527]

Most, if not all, "sandbox" games here are just glorified linear VNs with added fluff.

That being said I still haven't figured out how one would go about making a "true" porn sandbox though. Both from a systems development pov and also a narrative pov. Giving the player as much freedom as you can in how they interact with the world, while also integrating some sort of narrative into it. Maybe if you can develop a game with modular systems, each independent yet interacting with others, players can sort of just interact with the world and make their own narrative as they go along. The "Nemesis System" form shadow of mordor interested the fuck out of me as it did something similar.
I swear if someone someday cracks this puzzle it would be breakthrough in the porn games space lol.

 

[Jofur]

I swear if someone someday cracks this puzzle it would be breakthrough in the porn games space lol.

Isn't that pretty much what Artificial Academy 2 is? It's a shame Illusion only releases their games unfinished and never support them post-launch. Imagine what a game like AA2 or Koikatsu could be like with years of continuous development or more powerful mod tools. Another that springs to mind is LifePlay. It's a pretty damn expansive, but it suffers from a lot of quirks that needs to be ironed out to be enjoyable. Especially the annoying UI and controls.

Arguably one of the best sandbox porn games in existence is The Sims 4(and Skyrim+Fallout to an extent), but that brings to mind another point. Make the game too sandbox and it often loses a lot of the uniqueness that makes the erotic content interesting in the first place. If almost every character in the game is randomly generated or have their personality determined by an algorithm it just becomes bland incredibly fast. Fucking your hot boss or maid in The Sims 4 is pretty exciting, but it will still never be as titillating as a game with a good story and writing. That balance between sandbox and unique human designed content is pretty important.

 

[desmosome]

Most, if not all, "sandbox" games here are just glorified linear VNs with added fluff.

That being said I still haven't figured out how one would go about making a "true" porn sandbox though. Both from a systems development pov and also a narrative pov. Giving the player as much freedom as you can in how they interact with the world, while also integrating some sort of narrative into it. Maybe if you can develop a game with modular systems, each independent yet interacting with others, players can sort of just interact with the world and make their own narrative as they go along. The "Nemesis System" form shadow of mordor interested the fuck out of me as it did something similar.
I swear if someone someday cracks this puzzle it would be breakthrough in the porn games space lol.

A true sandbox with a narrative is probably out of reach for most indie devs with such small manpower. Actually, a true sandbox essentially has no concrete story. You just do whatever you want within the framework of the system. Once you add a narrative and different ways to tackle a quest lines, it basically becomes an illusion of a sandbox. The more complex the system and the more freedom afforded to the players, the better this illusion becomes.

As far as porn games are concerned, all we really need is a big enough playing field filled with interactions and significant freedom. You could pursue the main quest, or go off and explore the world. By far the best execution of a sandbox here is A Spell For All. There are other pretty good ones like Tales of Terrara, Void's Calling and probably some others I'm forgetting.

I honestly think exploration of a big or dense area is mandatory. All these walk around the house simulators that has repetitive scenes and dialogues with zero sense of adventure are just missing the whole point. I have not found a single one of these incest games where you walk around the house engaging. It actively hinders the narrative while offering nothing in return.

In the end, the sandbox needs to serve a purpose. If you cannot answer with certainty what the design goals of the sandbox are and what you hope to achieve with it, you are wasting everyone's time.

 

[Deleted member 1536527]

Isn't that pretty much what Artificial Academy 2 is?

I haven't played that one, gonna have to check it out to see how they approached it. I usually avoid Japanese style games.

Another that springs to mind is LifePlay. It's a pretty damn expansive, but it suffers from a lot of quirks that needs to be ironed out to be enjoyable.

This looks fucking insane. But yeah you're right, it seems too clunky and I don't think I'll be able to enjoy it at all. However, the way they approached the problem is kinda interesting. It looks like the whole game is a collection of "scenes" regarding different situations one could find themselves in. Looks like they have their own scripting system so anyone could make scenes.

If almost every character in the game is randomly generated or have their personality determined by an algorithm it just becomes bland incredibly fast. Fucking your hot boss or maid in The Sims 4 is pretty exciting, but it will still never be as titillating as a game with a good story and writing.

Agreed. That balance point is really hard to find. Algorithmically generated characters would definitely be bland. But I've come across some systems that sort of semi-dynamically generate narratives, using a collection of fixed pre-written scenes (they're more like templates). It sort of sounds cool and addresses your issues. It combines the handcrafted scenes, with algorithmically generated overall narratives. I am gonna have to look into it more though to see if and how I can implement it.

 

[woody554]

That being said I still haven't figured out how one would go about making a "true" porn sandbox though.

there's that one game, paradise something or heaven something... it has no dialogue but symbolic action instead. there's an icon you click for 'talking', and then you have instantly 'talked'. I feel like that could work for an actual sandbox that generated all interactions based on current circumstances instead of some preset stories. the rest you could code in a typical FPS style like illusion games.

you could even code some basic sex positions, like from behind standing up, then make an IK system to react to whatever 'ground' collision there is. so you could take the girl near some crates or stairs or whatever uneven surface, 'push' her over so the IK targets on her hands and knees collide with the bounding boxes, run your IK to find a reasonable pose, and finally interpolate from the standing pose to the on-her-knees pose. then you could fuck her anywhere against anything, even structures built in game.

make that easily moddable so people could add their own poses and share in game buildings etc, and you could have a very versatile sandbox where you could actually create your own stories.

it would basically be a lot like Artificial Girl 3, but with more flexible poses and buildable world. and on top of that you can add so much and it would all be simulated as you go.

 

[Deleted member 1536527]

A true sandbox with a narrative is probably out of reach for most indie devs with such small manpower. Actually, a true sandbox essentially has no concrete story. You just do whatever you want within the framework of the system. Once you add a narrative and different ways to tackle a quest lines, it basically becomes an illusion of a sandbox. The more complex the system and the more freedom afforded to the players, the better this illusion becomes.

As far as porn games are concerned, all we really need is a big enough playing field filled with interactions and significant freedom. You could pursue the main quest, or go off and explore the world. By far the best execution of a sandbox here is A Spell For All. There are other pretty good ones like Tales of Terrara, Void's Calling and probably some others I'm forgetting.

I honestly think exploration of a big or dense area is mandatory. All these walk around the house simulators that has repetitive scenes and dialogues with zero sense of adventure are just missing the whole point. I have not found a single one of these incest games where you walk around the house engaging. It actively hinders the narrative while offering nothing in return.

In the end, the sandbox needs to serve a purpose. If you cannot answer with certainty what the design goals of the sandbox are and what you hope to achieve with it, you are wasting everyone's time.

Yeah the "do the main quest, otherwise here are a bunch of other things you can do" formula looks like the most obvious choice, also one routinely employed by AAA studios. But the problem with this remains the same as you suggested, it is damn near impossible to make enough content to make it dense enough by, what is usually, just one dev. That's why I've been more and more interested in a systems approach. If you can develop systems that are modular enough, and dynamic enough, the content sort of comes from the player themselves. And I think if you get everything down right, it is doable by an experienced dev or maybe at most a small team. I'll check out A Spell for All (EDIT: Its an HTML game ).

 

[Deleted member 1536527]

you could even code some basic sex positions, like from behind standing up, then make an IK system to react to whatever 'ground' collision there is. so you could take the girl near some crates or stairs or whatever uneven surface, 'push' her over so the IK targets on her hands and knees collide with the bounding boxes, run your IK to find a reasonable pose, and finally interpolate from the standing pose to the on-her-knees pose. then you could fuck her anywhere against anything, even structures built in game.

make that easily moddable so people could add their own poses and share in game buildings etc, and you could have a very versatile sandbox where you could actually create your own stories.

Nah that is waaaaaaaay too much work for one person. I think you unnecessarily increase your workload by like 500% whenever you try to make anything in realtime 3d, and beyond that it'll probably not even look that good + run horribly. Most things will look better, are doable, and preferred by the community in just your standard Ren'py 2d games, while also keeping the workload low so you can focus on other stuff.

 

[desmosome]

I think modular and procedural generation would get stale quickly as far as sex scenes are concerned. It's hard enough for a person to write a good enough sex scene lol. Besides, like 90% of the eroticism comes from the set up and circumstances, not the actual act itself.

For this type of game, there must be a more standard gameplay element, be it survival, crafting, management, battles, or whatever.

 

[woody554]

Nah that is waaaaaaaay too much work for one person. I think you unnecessarily increase your workload by like 500% whenever you try to make anything in realtime 3d, and beyond that it'll probably not even look that good + run horribly. Most things will look better, are doable, and preferred by the community in just your standard Ren'py 2d games, while also keeping the workload low so you can focus on other stuff.

yes of course, you need to have a solid 3d background to make these. if you've never coded your own 3d engines and IK systems it probably shouldn't be even tried. it's not THAT difficult if you have the background, and renpy + rendering really takes easily years as well to get things done. but that's a way it can be done.

 

[Jofur]

Agreed. That balance point is really hard to find. Algorithmically generated characters would definitely be bland. But I've come across some systems that sort of semi-dynamically generate narratives, using a collection of fixed pre-written scenes (they're more like templates). It sort of sounds cool and addresses your issues. It combines the handcrafted scenes, with algorithmically generated overall narratives. I am gonna have to look into it more though to see if and how I can implement it.

While not exactly the same, Crusader Kings 3 does a surprisingly good job in making characters who are for the most part completely randomly generated feel alive and memorable. It mainly does it though scripted events that the player initiates or just randomly pops up. For example, you seduce someone's wife, but you get caught, now as a dynamic side effect the guy who's wife you banged might be so pissed off he's starting a revolt that could topple your entire empire). You really start to remember those random characters who sort of dynamically end up becoming hugely important to your personal story. The easiest comparison is that it sort of feels a like playing a tabletop RPG. Some of the most memorable moments you will have will be because of a bad dice roll or the players doing something the DM never imagined and he had to make everything up on the fly.

I think modular and procedural generation would get stale quickly as far as sex scenes are concerned. It's hard enough for a person to write a good enough sex scene lol. Besides, like 90% of the eroticism comes from the set up and circumstances, not the actual act itself.

For this type of game, there must be a more standard gameplay element, be it survival, crafting, management, battles, or whatever.

I played around a bit making semi-randomized sex-scenes for a text based game a while ago. You basically just write a normal sentence, then the game looks through all the words in that sentence and tries to find matching synonyms to spice it up. So for example you start with a base sentence of "You grab her tits." and it would be displayed as: "You fondle her ample bosoms." or "You gently run your hands across Linda's chest." or any other number of combinations. Mainly so you wouldn't have to read the same sentences over and over again like some games. I was gonna start working on a way to splice together multiple of those sentences in a way that made sense to create a complete scene from start to finish. With sentences and synonyms becoming more intense and stuff as the scene progressed, but life and my other non-porn game project got in the way. I mainly just did it as a proof-of-concept though.

 

[woody554]

For this type of game, there must be a more standard gameplay element, be it survival, crafting, management, battles, or whatever.

as much as I love all those genres, I think they're easily out of place and annoying distractions in a porn game. it's great to have them in some minor roles, but the second they become the main element you've got the interest in porn undermining that main element and vice versa.

it's the same problem as porn vs plot, the second you have the idea of incoming pussy in your brain it's impossible to stay interested in a mafia plot. you start groaning and sighing and fastforwarding to the next sex bit.

it's better to keep the porn-related content as the main dish and everything else as side dishes.

 

[Deleted member 1536527]

yes of course, you need to have a solid 3d background to make these. if you've never coded your own 3d engines and IK systems it probably shouldn't be even tried. it's not THAT difficult if you have the background, and renpy + rendering really takes easily years as well to get things done. but that's a way it can be done.

Woah woah, making an entire engine is most definitely NOT the way to go . There are established engines you can use even then I'd argue its too much. Especially given that the community goes for only Ren'py games these days and mostly avoids everything else. Idk where you got that figure for Daz and Ren'py though. I was up and running after like a week or 2 into learning them (though I do have a programming background so Ren'py wasn't too hard). They're extremely easy to learn and use.

as much as I love all those genres, I think they're easily out of place and annoying distractions in a porn game. it's great to have them in some minor roles, but the second they become the main element you've got the interest in porn undermining that main element and vice versa.

Hard agree.

 

[rk-47]

Its not entirely a VN if it has sandbox elements then, just a renpy game with sandbox and freeroam for side activities, that said the only game ive played that is VN with sandbox is timestamps, but the sandbox is a lie as even if you go anywhere else there isnt anything to do and you are told when the next story part is on the map anyways so the sandbox in that game is an illusion