What's good gameplay?

[Yunari-chi]

Asking us in the forums, while fine, is a bad idea, because most of the users here are going to answer as players. And as players, we're dumb. We don't know what we want, we barely know what we like, and when we do decide there's a problem, 90% of the time we will complain about the wrong thing.

I know what you mean, I also like to combine approaches, different angles can reveal things you didn't see before. The opinions of players might not be the best guide, but it's still valuable to me at least.

snip

Good arguments here, I like to do my market research by using the filters to narrow the field down to the more relevant games. Ofc if you're making a VN, that approach is going to produce what you mentioned, but that's only a problem if you're making a VN ^^;

 

[DuniX]

VNs don't dominate the scene because nobody's making anything else. They're the most common games because they're easy to make and easy to sexualize. But if they're also the most popular games on this site, it must be for some other reason.

Games with even a bit of a gameplay are plenty popular.
But it has been my argument for a while then VNs are Not the most easy and accessible to make.

Sure Renpy is easy and pretty much everyone can learn to work with it as well as Daz or Illusion and get started, that was the initial driver and what is the current inertia of this industry.

But when you factor Story, Content Generation and Updates things aren't as pretty.
Games can be Repayable and has Gameplay that can Occupy the Playtime instead of the Story and Content that is painstaking to make.
Game Mechanics are also not linear in terms of what you get so with more time developing gameplay you can get more Depth that results in more Replayability and thus Playtime.
Furthermore the Challenge, Reward, Sex loop works pretty well including with Episodic, Updates or DLC Content.

And you don't need to make all that complex Gameplay, even something on the level of simple "Mini-Games" can work just as well. In fact whole Genres that would normally not be Viable as Indies can become Viable with Porn, see the Platforming Genre as a example.

 

[Meaning Less]

But it has been my argument for a while then VNs are Not the most easy and accessible to make.
...
And you don't need to make all that complex Gameplay, even something on the level of simple "Mini-Games" can work just as well. In fact whole Genres that would normally not be Viable as Indies can become Viable with Porn, see the Platforming Genre as a example.

However even a simple platforming game can easily turn into a massive task for those unfamiliar with game development, lots of optimization, playtesting and a constant struggle against bugs.

Meanwhile a simple VN is on the same level of complexity than a powerpoint presentation, where you just add an image, some text for each slide and the occasional jump for choices.

So from the technical side of things VNs are in fact a lot easier to conceive and more accessible to those unfamiliar with coding.

I do agree with your point that if your goal was solely to make a longer game then relying entirely on story isn't going to be easy. But it isn't like VNs need longer playtime anyways, and those that want that can always extend things with "point and click" mechanics that are still a lot simpler than making a platformer.

 

[DuniX]

However even a simple platforming game can easily turn into a massive task for those unfamiliar with game development, lots of optimization, playtesting and a constant struggle against bugs.

If platformers which are basically beginners first game are too hard for you then yes this "game" thing might be too hard for you and you should stick to VNs.

All kinds of Indie Developers exist with all kinds of games they make.
But they Starve.
Add Porn and they won't Starve.
Simple as that.

Meanwhile a simple VN is on the same level of complexity than a powerpoint presentation, where you just add an image, some text for each slide and the occasional jump for choices.

Programming might be easy but Writing and Content Generation for it is far from easy. And not everyone necessarily is a good writer.

So from the technical side of things VNs are in fact a lot easier to conceive and more accessible to those unfamiliar with coding.

There are plenty of tutorials and support with things like plugins in Unity.
Even with Renpy if it's game play mechanics are "turn based" are easily achievable just through the screen language and menus.
And you can do simple mini-games easily with it's py game support.
There is also RPG Maker which is just as easy as Renpy to get started and where you can do all kinds of things and combat with a bit of creativity and expanding things a bit.

But it isn't like VNs need longer playtime anyways,

Is it? How many are actually complete and how many are in a alpha state with not much content in it and years before you have any satisfying progress in the story?

Like I said before with Telltale Games and Episodic games, you can only milk so much before people just get tired of it all.
Of course this doesn't apply to already successful projects that have the accumulated content or are already complete. This is about new projects with new developers or projects that are forever in limbo.

Think of it like this:
Indie Developers + Porn == Love
Indie Porn Games vs "Adult VNs Games" == Dead VNs

This is why I don't really care about the current trend of this "adult games industry" and their "developers" because they aren't accounting for when Indie Developers will finally figure out to add Porn to their games like what happened in the Japanese Indie Scene, then their free lunch will be over.

 

[Meaning Less]

Is it? How many are actually complete and how many are in a alpha state with not much content in it and years before you have any satisfying progress in the story?

Except they do that because of the Patreon effect more than because it is hard. It is safer to keep working on the same game over and over again if you don't want to risk starting something new.

Plenty of VNs could/should have ended years ago, but some people like things to on for eternity I guess.

Think of it like this:
Indie Developers + Porn == Love
Indie Porn Games vs "Adult VNs Games" == Dead VNs

Don't fool yourself there are plenty of dead adult games as well. Things are never as simple as mixing two things.

 

[khumak]

What even is gameplay, are you looking for something besides sexual content, like management, or should the sexual content itself be the gameplay in some form? Or should the story be the center piece, click to advance is enough gameplay?

To me gameplay is whatever roadblocks the dev puts in place for the MC to overcome to "win". For a pure VN that could just be navigating through the dialog choices. For some games it could be mini games. For an RPG it could be stat grinding and fighting. Whatever it is, the journey itself should be fun. It shouldn't feel frustrating or boring for significant stretches of the game before you get to "the good part".

Personally, I almost always dislike mini games. Even the ones I actually do enjoy, I probably don't want to play it again after the 5th or 6th (or 20th) time. There should be a way to skip them and still get max rewards.

For dialog choices there should be enough context to make the "right" decision unless there's a way to recover from mistakes without a reload and without a walk through.

For any kind of grind, the grind itself should be fun. I shouldn't be wishing I could just skip it.

Long story short, when a dev puts any given component into the game he should ask himself "Is this fun?" If it's not then he should do whatever needs to be done to make it fun, or remove it.

 

[Meaning Less]

Long story short, when a dev puts any given component into the game he should ask himself "Is this fun?"

Every dev probably answers yes to that question... The issue is that different people have different interpretations of fun. I play games instead of just watching videos because I like challenge and buildup.

I'm very against just adding a button to entirely skip gameplay, that makes things seem pointless to people that otherwise might enjoy going through it, when I see that in a game I often press it just because I assume the gameplay section is so pointless that it can be skipped.

Cheating should always be added through modding or be hidden, that way only those looking for that stuff will get it, instead of making things feel pointless for everyone playing the game normally.

 

[khumak]

I'm very against just adding a button to entirely skip gameplay, that makes things seem pointless to people that otherwise might enjoy going through it, when I see that in a game I often press it just because I assume the gameplay section is so pointless that it can be skipped.

Cheating should always be added through modding or be hidden, that way only those looking for that stuff will get it, instead of making things feel pointless for everyone playing the game normally.

How does me having the ability to skip a mini game or something affect your enjoyment of actually playing through that mini game? You can still play it if you want to. I can either play it or skip it. NOT having that option means I probably won't play the game at all.

A good example from a game I like is Love of Magic. The combat system revolves around poker. Personally, I enjoy poker. Some people don't. But even though I do enjoy poker, sometimes I don't really want to focus on playing poker so I'll just click the auto play option for that and focus on the other aspects of the game.

Another example would be dialog choices in a pure VN. I have a dialog option with a girl to either be nice to her or tease her. For some girls being nice is correct. For other girls teasing is correct with no hints given to know which is which. Getting the best scenes requires guessing right 100% of the time. This requires either extensive note taking and reloading, a walkthrough, digging through the code to find the answers, or cheating. How is that fun? Even worse are the games that require such choices and don't actually show you the results til the end. So I have no idea which choices are good or bad, I just know that I got the bad ending at the end.

 

[Meaning Less]

NOT having that option means I probably won't play the game at all.

And HAVING that option to me has the opposite effect because it implies the gameplay is probably irrelevant so I might be the one not playing the game at all.

This requires either extensive note taking and reloading... How is that fun?

How is that not fun? You just described the only "gameplay" that is often involved in VNs, figuring choices out by yourself...
If they allow you to skip all that then there isn't much left to do.

Like I said fun is relative, and kinetic novels are boring to me.

 

[DuniX]

Every dev probably answers yes to that question... The issue is that different people have different interpretations of fun. I play games instead of just watching videos because I like challenge and buildup.

The formal definition of Game and Gameplay is that of a Test of Player Skill that you learn and master, that's because "Play" is the voluntary learning and mastering a Skill.
That makes things "Fun" and there is not interpretation about it, it is

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Reading is not "Play" and thus not Gameplay, it derives from another source of value, a Story can be "interesting" but that can never the same as the "fun" you get from "play".

Another example would be dialog choices in a pure VN. I have a dialog option with a girl to either be nice to her or tease her. For some girls being nice is correct. For other girls teasing is correct with no hints given to know which is which. Getting the best scenes requires guessing right 100% of the time. This requires either extensive note taking and reloading, a walkthrough, digging through the code to find the answers, or cheating. How is that fun? Even worse are the games that require such choices and don't actually show you the results til the end. So I have no idea which choices are good or bad, I just know that I got the bad ending at the end.

While "Detective work" with things like paying attention to clues and deducting things is a Player Skill. It's precisely because there is no Feedback on getting things wrong and thus a way to learn and improve why Choice based VNs fail to be "fun" and cannot be considered as gameplay.
If the developers think that constitutes as "gameplay" then they will automatically fail at it.
Only something like the Sunless Series games make the choices into actual gameplay.

 

[nulnil]

I'm going to gatekeep here and say that the majority of porn gamers, don't want to play a game, they want interactive porn. There isn't anything wrong with that, but many VN's try too hard to live up to the 'game' aspect, and end up harming themselves in the process. So basically, if you want to make a game that appeals to the vast majority, you should aim for a straight, vanilla VN. But not only is that boring, it also doesn't work because too many people have already done it.

When it comes to actual gameplay though, "What's good gameplay?" isn't the correct question. It is like asking "How do I build a good bridge?". There are many tips on what to avoid, but without knowing any further details, it's almost impossible to give any useful information on actually designing it.

Saying "Management is good" is the kind of example I'm talking about. What kind of management games? Is it an aspect of the game, or a focus? What makes the gameplay stand out from others of it's genre? Doesn't every game have resource management anyways? (Yeah, almost)

If you're looking for more precise information on how create good gameplay, you'd need to give more specific information on the gameplay or start studying game design in general.

As for my opinion, good gameplay is when you want to improve yourself at a game. It's not enough for you to just win or play the game, you want to keep getting better.

 

[DuniX]

Saying "Management is good" is the kind of example I'm talking about. What kind of management games? Is it an aspect of the game, or a focus? What makes the gameplay stand out from others of it's genre? Doesn't every game have resource management anyways? (Yeah, almost)

Management is a Genre of it's own.
What you have to understand about "Games" with "Gameplay" is that requires a Player Skill to learn and master and get Challenged on it.
In the case of Management Games that Skill is "Optimization" through Efficient use of your Actions and Resources.

A good example of management game is Bifrost as it has both the Challenge through the Debt to pressure you and your actions are substantial enough to matter.
Management Games tend to have a Debt as a premise as that is what pushes you to be Efficient, otherwise you would have no reason to be efficient.
A example of a game that fails at that is Stive Conquest the Debt is poorly utilized and even if you decide to pursue it you can't use your actions efficiently depending on the situation and opportunities since the solution is right there from the start and doing something else is likely to be less efficient.
In other words there is nothing to "learn" to optimize and get better at that as things are already at the optimum, this is where most "Sandbox VNs" with some "resource management" tend to fail.

Another example is Brothel King, it does not have a conventional Debt but it still has Wealth targets you need to reach.
It does not push you and pressures you to be efficient but your actions does have an effect as you can be more efficient and there are Events and Upkeep you need to properly handle, it is just a more gradual and grinding process as that actions are not as substantial as the interactions with clients are not as direct like in Bifrost.

An interesting case is the old Slave Maker game as that doesn't have a conventional Debt but it does have a Timelimit for training an reaching a certain state with the slave, money isn't as easy as only a portion goes back to you so there is proper resource management on top of the action economy.

 

[subli]

To me gameplay means the presence of three things: At least one goal that the player is working towards, choices that the player can make, and differences in how well the player can succeed at their goals depending on the choices they make.

Let's take two games that I like and that are played in fairly similar ways, Incubus City and The Mayor of Mount Pleasant. Both of these are twine games. Incubus City is a game about a demon that seeks to impregnate as many women as possible. In the game you have about 7 days where each day you choose one short branching story to play through. The Mayor of Mount Pleasant is a game where you play as a recently elected mayor who seeks to turn a conservative town into a heaven of sexual libertinism. To accomplish this you can move around a town where NPCs might have various stories that you can advance depending on the day of the week, time of the day and what has happened already.

I would say that Incubus city is a game with a lot of gameplay and The Mayor of Mount Pleasant does not. They both have a goal for the player and both have choices that the player makes. However in Incubus City those choices affect the players ability to succeed at their goal and in The Mayor of Mount Pleasant they do not. In Incubus City your choices in the branching stories affect whether you succeed in impregnating women and affect your stats, which control the options given to you on future days. In The Mayor of Mount Pleasant every story is always going to play out the same way and your character always succeeds to the same extent regardless of the choices you made. I would say that Incubus City has a lot of gameplay because you can sit down and really think about the ways that you can choose which branching stories to play, in what order, and the choices to make in them in order to maximize your overall success.