HTML What's wrong with most HTML games, how to improve them?

[outsider artisan]

If you don't like text-based games, you shouldn't make text-based games. 90% (or more) of Twine and HTML games are made by people who definitely don't really want to make text-based games and probably don't enjoy them, and it shows, because they don't know why other people play these games. The ease of entry attracts people who want to make games, but they're always trying to make games that really should be 2D or even 3D games with a text-based game engine.

Good text-based games use the fact that they're text-based to introduce a level of complexity, depth, and narrative that is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to replicate in more graphically intensive formats. Look at, for example, the freedom of Degrees of Lewdity, the detailed character creation and manipulation of Lilith's Throne, or the (though I think the game sucks in a lot of ways) the complexity and depth of Free Cities. These games actually benefit from being text-based, and they are the exact right format for the kind of game they are. It feels less like the devs sucked at art or were novice programmers and more like the choice of making a text-based game was a valid design decision for the project itself.

Unfortunately, a lot of novice devs are really not making text-based games, they're making VNs or RPGs with less (or no) art. They're doing it because they lack the skill, time, or funds to use a more appropriate engine, and so the whole text-based scene is sort of a ghetto now, unfortunately. To be clear, I don't really blame these devs. I respect the hustle, and these sorts of text-based-because-art-is-hard games can be good. They're just usually not good. And there's a lot of them. And they kind of make the whole format look bad.

 

[F4C430]

1. Real porn is not a solution to "i can't do graphics." Images of real people ruins the fantasy. Corruption of Champions did just fine with no graphics. If your game is good, it will earn a reputation and attract players regardless of lack of (or minimal) graphics. If your game is designed with real porn in mind, then fine, but don't use it as a crutch.
2. Lack of player control. It's really frustrating when the game keeps telling me how my player acts or responds instead of asking me. At that point, i feel like i'm just reading a story and not playing a game.
3. Lack of player interaction relative to reading. Related to player control, but what i mean is too much reading of lengthy dialogs and unnecessarily detailed descriptions between having any player input. Basically too wordy.
4. Illusion of choice or choices don't really matter. I've seen some games where some choices are really just dead ends and the game won't progress until you give in and go along with what it wants you to. So, you have a choice, but not really. There's also games that give you different responses but it doesn't affect the outcome in any way.
5. Alternate paths are lacking. A lot of devs start with a specific story they want to tell, but to make it a game they add on dfferent paths for players to take. These alternate paths are often lacking in content, and even left unfinished.
6. Low effort/low quality. This is inevitable since HTML is low barrier to entry and everyone has to start from somewhere.

 

[Kinderalpha]

I'm not opposed to real porn HTML games. Not all devs have the freedom to render or create their own art so if that's the medium that works for them so be it. In my experience, the most off putting thing in HTML sandboxes (because they all seem to be sandboxish) is the copius amounts of narrow or dead end paths. It's a real buzz kill hitting a dead end in a story line you're starting to get involved with.

For this reason, my recommendation would be to plan out your paths based on what media you have available and go from there.

 

[HiEv]

Real porn is not a solution to "i can't do graphics." Images of real people ruins the fantasy. Corruption of Champions did just fine with no graphics. If your game is good, it will earn a reputation and attract players regardless of lack of (or minimal) graphics. If your game is designed with real porn in mind, then fine, but don't use it as a crutch.

Your points 2 - 5 are all just different ways of saying the same thing: you need sufficient and good choices. I agree, but no need to say that four different ways. The lack of choice is partially the result of your point 6, not putting in the time/effort to make a good game. However, the part I quoted above, point 1, is just opinion + tautology.

Personally, I find that the glassy-eyed, oversexed mannequins wearing boobsocks for clothing, with objects clipping through them, and horrific lighting that are found in most 3D porn games, ruin the fantasy. But at least I'm aware that this is my opinion and I don't pretend that this opinion is something which is true for everyone. My "

You must be registered to see the links

" is apparently much broader and deeper than it is for other people. But this is why I actually prefer real porn over 3D.

Worse, you're also essentially saying that "if your game is good, then people will like it," and I'm like, "yeah, people liking something is generally how you determine if something is generally perceived as good or not." So, all you've really said is, "if it's good, then it's good." That doesn't really mean much.

You see, the thing is, games which have visuals are more easily perceived to be good. Forgoing the visuals actually makes it harder for a game to be perceived as good. So you're simply wrong that using text-only is better than using real porn images in general, because you're basing this on your personal opinion alone. Meanwhile, I moderate hundreds of porn games over at TFGamesSite, and I can see that only a handful of text-only games get praise. Most get ignored and forgotten, while others with visuals tend to be much better liked and remembered. The numbers simply don't agree with your assessment.

And the funny thing is, your final point 6 was about how the game being "low effort" is a problem, but that contradicts your first point, which was that they should do something even lower effort, by ignoring the graphics and going text-only. It's a very muddled argument.

Look, I'll agree that there can be problems with HTML games. But there can be problems with games made in any engine. I've seen RPGMaker games with tons of tedious and unnecessary combat, Unity games with garbage controls and graphics, Ren'Py games with too little character art and badly reused or even missing scenes, and more.

The real "problem" is that most HTML developers are making their first game. Ever. With no professional training. Usually by themselves. So they make mistakes. Lots of them. That should be expected. The important part is that they should learn from those mistakes so that they can improve their current game, or even make a better game next time.

If you treat first time developers the same as people who have a lot of experience, then you're going to have a lot of complaints about the first time developers. That's just going to discourage those developers. It also doesn't help when people misunderstand the source of the problem, doing things like blaming the engine, when all it is is just a tool. It's not helpful.

This is why I spend a ton of time helping HTML game developers. They're people who have a vision in their head that they want to share, but often don't have the technical expertise or experience to do that particularly well yet. But the only way they'll get that is through experience, both their own and by learning from the experiences of others.

So, this isn't really an "engine" problem, the engine can do just about anything, it's really a "lack of experience" problem. And the way we solve that is by helping and encouraging people to do better. You do that by producing easy-to-use resources for technical and design help, and by being patient with these new developers, assisting them with tips, suggestions, and useful examples, which help them solve problems in their games as they learn and grow.

My 2¢, anyways.

 

[konabwo]

1 Images of real people ruins the fantasy. <...>
2 & 4 Lack of player control. <...> llusion of choice or choices don't really matter.
5 Alternate paths are lacking. <...>
3. <...> too wordy

i assume VN-CYOA was implied here. i prolly would vote for a frequent choices and traced art (gggb,lust campus) but i am not into books.

but when it comes to a sandbox... all points would be opposite for sure (excluding 3)

1. sbxs even without visual consistency (random gifs) work fine
but renders with alien or plastic surgery-victim face, unnatural disproporations and inhuman qualities, weird coloration or with overall manequin/plastic sexdoll look is a huge turn off.
goes without talking that cartoonish unnatural creatures is a big nono
nothing beats RP.

2,4. nothing is wrong with a straightforward sandbox (with controlled narrative so to speak) well, most are such.

5. please avoid making alternative pathes. it will drain you and de facto shorten your game (from players perspective) ; sbx replayability (if any) is much lower than you think. alt pathes work for VN caz u dont need to reclick much (if anything). for sbx it is just not worthy unless u can activate all leftover routes with cheats or someones saves (otherwise such will just be negging your brain). and up to this day nobody really pulled that off.

*
3. that is where we can agree; avoid being too wordy and actually feel free to shorten the text as much as u can; see it like narrative out of quests not quests out of narrative. for sanbox players texts are like an obstacle before you move to UI, locations picking, phone tips looking and completing what is matter - some tasks and gigs. texts is what you skip. dont bother. it may be something additional a play may choose to look into, but generally u get understanding of what and why you doing from visuals, tips [& external wts], answers of/to npcs, locations and items you interact with .

 

[F4C430]

Your points 2 - 5 are all just different ways of saying the same thing: you need sufficient and good choices. I agree, but no need to say that four different ways. The lack of choice is partially the result of your point 6, not putting in the time/effort to make a good game. However, the part I quoted above, point 1, is just opinion + tautology.

This thread specifically asked "in your opinion." Refer to the last line of the first post. Didn't know i needed to reiterate that.

2-5 are related but i put them in separate points because they are different factors contributing to what you summarized as "sufficient and good choices." I felt the details were necessary because if you tell someone you need "sufficient and good choices," they may not know what that entails. From the games i've tried, it's obvious that plenty of people need it spelled out for them.

Personally, I find that the glassy-eyed, oversexed mannequins wearing boobsocks for clothing, with objects clipping through them, and horrific lighting that are found in most 3D porn games, ruin the fantasy. But at least I'm aware that this is my opinion and I don't pretend that this opinion is something which is true for everyone. My "

You must be registered to see the links

" is apparently much broader and deeper than it is for other people. But this is why I actually prefer real porn over 3D.

Again, i'm not pretending my opinion is true for everyone since this thread was asking "in your opinion." And i'm not sure why you're stating that you prefer real porn over crappy 3D. I don't want people making 3D renders that fall in the uncanny valley either.

My issue with real porn is there's nothing left for the imagination. As soon as you show me a real person, my personal preferences take over and override any imagination/interpretation, and it ruins my immersion. I've also never seen an HTML game with real porn use images that i didn't find to be unattractive or even gross. I've seen other people feel the same so i know i'm not the only one turned off by real porn. I'll never complain about it in the game threads though, i just click ignore thread and move on without saying anything.

Worse, you're also essentially saying that "if your game is good, then people will like it," and I'm like, "yeah, people liking something is generally how you determine if something is generally perceived as good or not." So, all you've really said is, "if it's good, then it's good." That doesn't really mean much.

You see, the thing is, games which have visuals are more easily perceived to be good. Forgoing the visuals actually makes it harder for a game to be perceived as good. So you're simply wrong that using text-only is better than using real porn images in general, because you're basing this on your personal opinion alone. Meanwhile, I moderate hundreds of porn games over at TFGamesSite, and I can see that only a handful of text-only games get praise. Most get ignored and forgotten, while others with visuals tend to be much better liked and remembered. The numbers simply don't agree with your assessment.

That's not what i said at all. I said the game will still attract players despite having no/minimal images if it's a good game. I think the misunderstanding is because i said "good game." Is it fair to say a game isn't "good" because the majority won't play it from lack of visuals alone? Those people aren't the intended audience so why should their opinion matter?

And the funny thing is, your final point 6 was about how the game being "low effort" is a problem, but that contradicts your first point, which was that they should do something even lower effort, by ignoring the graphics and going text-only. It's a very muddled argument.

No, you're just assuming that text-only has to imply low effort. It's probably likely that people who make low-effort games are also likely skipping on images, but that doesn't mean i think it's okay to do less work. I actually expect even more effort if you do text-only because i'm always concerned that the dev is taking some shortcuts in presenting information. Images are efficient because they present a lot of information in a relatively small space. If you want to convey the same meaningful information using only text, it's actually a big challenge. So no, text-only ⇏ low effort.

Look, I'll agree that there can be problems with HTML games. But there can be problems with games made in any engine. I've seen RPGMaker games with tons of tedious and unnecessary combat, Unity games with garbage controls and graphics, Ren'Py games with too little character art and badly reused or even missing scenes, and more.

Agreed, but this thread is about HTML games. I'd be happy to express my criticisms of typical games made in any engine in the appropriate thread

The real "problem" is that most HTML developers are making their first game. Ever. With no professional training. Usually by themselves. So they make mistakes. Lots of them. That should be expected. The important part is that they should learn from those mistakes so that they can improve their current game, or even make a better game next time.

If you treat first time developers the same as people who have a lot of experience, then you're going to have a lot of complaints about the first time developers. That's just going to discourage those developers. It also doesn't help when people misunderstand the source of the problem, doing things like blaming the engine, when all it is is just a tool. It's not helpful.

This is why I spend a ton of time helping HTML game developers. They're people who have a vision in their head that they want to share, but often don't have the technical expertise or experience to do that particularly well yet. But the only way they'll get that is through experience, both their own and by learning from the experiences of others.

So, this isn't really an "engine" problem, the engine can do just about anything, it's really a "lack of experience" problem. And the way we solve that is by helping and encouraging people to do better. You do that by producing easy-to-use resources for technical and design help, and by being patient with these new developers, assisting them with tips, suggestions, and useful examples, which help them solve problems in their games as they learn and grow.

My 2¢, anyways.

I agree 100% with everything you say here. It's not really that there's a problem with the engine itself. HTML (actually Javascript though) is capable of much more than what people realize.

And also i want to convey a thank you on behalf of everyone you help.

 

[Rafster]

3. that is where we can agree; avoid being too wordy and actually feel free to shorten the text as much as u can; see it like narrative out of quests not quests out of narrative. for sanbox players texts are like an obstacle before you move to UI, locations picking, phone tips looking and completing what is matter - some tasks and gigs. texts is what you skip. dont bother. it may be something additional a play may choose to look into, but generally u get understanding of what and why you doing from visuals, tips [& external wts], answers of/to npcs, locations and items you interact with .

Guilty as charged, sometimes I go WAY overboard with this. I'm still working on this flaw, along with my other one: my engrish.

 

[konabwo]

sometimes I go WAY overboard with this.

afaik what i described is rather typical for a majority sandbox players ...and for some reason many devs dont get it and still waste their energy on what will be skipped. (maybe they want to sit on both chairs, maybe they replicate VN-ish games with sandbox ui, maybe they got used to read vns themselves)

so yeah, instead just think about solid quest sequences (with buildups and teasing) and clip those quest-chains . and add anti-blueballing measures (interactions for quikies so to speak).

 

[HiEv]

This thread specifically asked "in your opinion." Refer to the last line of the first post. Didn't know i needed to reiterate that.

Just because someone asks for opinions, doesn't mean that people aren't going to reply with things they see as facts. So, yes, you do have to be clear in your wording.

When you say things like, "Images of real people ruins the fantasy", that doesn't look like you're stating an opinion, even though that's all it really is. Personally, I totally disagree with that claim. Yes, it cuts out a part of the potential number of players, but so would a text-only game.

Take for example, "Secretary". This is a game which started out as using real porn, but mostly switched to 2D art. But even after that started happening, some people asked if they could get the old real porn art back. The fact is, some people are not only OK with real porn, they even prefer it.

That's why developers have to decide for themselves what audiences they want to cater to.

Again, i'm not pretending my opinion is true for everyone since this thread was asking "in your opinion." And i'm not sure why you're stating that you prefer real porn over crappy 3D. I don't want people making 3D renders that fall in the uncanny valley either.

Then why only the hate for real porn? Why not simply hate bad images/art? That seems like a more genuine stance.

My issue with real porn is there's nothing left for the imagination. As soon as you show me a real person, my personal preferences take over and override any imagination/interpretation, and it ruins my immersion. I've also never seen an HTML game with real porn use images that i didn't find to be unattractive or even gross.

But again, why single out real porn? Wouldn't all of your arguments also apply to characters displayed using 2D and 3D art?

Basically, I think people focus too much on real porn, when it's merely a choice the author has made about what they can handle and what audiences they want to target. I think it's a separate issue, which unfairly tends to get lumped in together with HTML games, simply because the two are often presented together.

I've seen other people feel the same so i know i'm not the only one turned off by real porn. I'll never complain about it in the game threads though, i just click ignore thread and move on without saying anything.

I appreciate that and I wish more people would do that.

It's the height of arrogance to go into a game's thread just to declare you don't like some particular thing about the game that's just your personal preference, because it assumes that anyone who doesn't share your preference doesn't matter, only your opinion matters. It's just kind of gross.

That's not what i said at all. I said the game will still attract players despite having no/minimal images if it's a good game. I think the misunderstanding is because i said "good game." Is it fair to say a game isn't "good" because the majority won't play it from lack of visuals alone? Those people aren't the intended audience so why should their opinion matter?

Perhaps you and I have different ways of determining if a game is good or not. Personally, I know my judgement isn't useful in this area, since I know that a lot of the stuff I like tends to be disliked by most other people. I watch and enjoy a lot of anime, and a lot of it is stuff rated 2 or 3 out of 10.

Thus, rather than using my own skewed internal compass, I base my judgement of whether entertainment is "good" based on whether it tends to entertain more or less people.

So, from my perspective, saying, "a game will attract players if it's a good game," is the same thing as saying, "it will be a good game if it's a good game" or "a lot of people will play it if a lot of people play it". That's why this appears to be a tautology to me.

Also, I know that adding visuals attracts more players, and it's harder to get people to play text-only games. Thus my point that it's more of an uphill battle if you go text-only, instead of including images. Not saying it's impossible, just more difficult.

No, you're just assuming that text-only has to imply low effort.

No, I'm simply stating a fact. It takes more effort to find and add images than it takes to leave them out. That's why I described leaving images out and going text-only as "something even lower effort". Note that "lower effort" is not the same as "low effort".

I actually expect even more effort if you do text-only because i'm always concerned that the dev is taking some shortcuts in presenting information. Images are efficient because they present a lot of information in a relatively small space. If you want to convey the same meaningful information using only text, it's actually a big challenge. So no, text-only ⇏ low effort.

It's actually the opposite. Finding images which fit, editing them, the technical aspects of adding them, compressing them, displaying them properly on all OSes and browsers, etc. is still more difficult than simply writing text. You can write text however you want, but when working with images you have limits you have to work within. Yes, it may take more effort to convey some things to the player without images, but that's precisely why images improve the game, they quickly and clearly get across certain points which would be laborious to get across through text alone.

However, you appear to be confusing the increased difficulty of communication in a text-only format with the actual work involved to create either version, and also ignoring the added benefits of adding images. It's much simpler to work text-only, because it removes many limitations and technical hurdles, but it adds other hurdles to enjoyment, which can make it harder to make it a good/popular game.

I agree 100% with everything you say here. It's not really that there's a problem with the engine itself. HTML (actually Javascript though) is capable of much more than what people realize.

And also i want to convey a thank you on behalf of everyone you help.

I appreciate it.

Also, I didn't mean to pick on you or your post, but it seemed like a good springboard to some of the points I wanted to make.

Thanks!

 

[F4C430]

Take for example, "Secretary". This is a game which started out as using real porn, but mostly switched to 2D art. But even after that started happening, some people asked if they could get the old real porn art back. The fact is, some people are not only OK with real porn, they even prefer it.

That's why developers have to decide for themselves what audiences they want to cater to.

Yeah, even Trap Quest still offers real porn as an option. I know there are people who prefer real porn (konabwo ).

Then why only the hate for real porn? Why not simply hate bad images/art? That seems like a more genuine stance.

But again, why single out real porn? Wouldn't all of your arguments also apply to characters displayed using 2D and 3D art?

Because real porn goes directly to personal preferences. If i see characters i'm supposed to have an event with but i find that actor/actress unattractive/repulsive, i don't want to play anymore (this happens a lot). I actually get the same problem with highly realistic renders too. "Bad" is another subjective term. If the art is actually bad, then that's no good either. But if it's only relatively "bad," my imagination takes over and i can make the characters work. If you ever played Trap Quest with the Danaume art, you probably know what i'm talking about.

PS: i'm not criticising Danaume, it's definitely far better than what i can do.

Perhaps you and I have different ways of determining if a game is good or not. Personally, I know my judgement isn't useful in this area, since I know that a lot of the stuff I like tends to be disliked by most other people. I watch and enjoy a lot of anime, and a lot of it is stuff rated 2 or 3 out of 10.

For clarification, this is actually a good example for what i meant by "good." You watch that anime because to you, it's good regardless of what the majority rated it as. That internal compass you're ignoring is exactly what i'm following.

No, I'm simply stating a fact. It takes more effort to find and add images than it takes to leave them out. That's why I described leaving images out and going text-only as "something even lower effort". Note that "lower effort" is not the same as "low effort".

It's actually the opposite. Finding images which fit, editing them, the technical aspects of adding them, compressing them, displaying them properly on all OSes and browsers, etc. is still more difficult than simply writing text. You can write text however you want, but when working with images you have limits you have to work within. Yes, it may take more effort to convey some things to the player without images, but that's precisely why images improve the game, they quickly and clearly get across certain points which would be laborious to get across through text alone.

However, you appear to be confusing the increased difficulty of communication in a text-only format with the actual work involved to create either version, and also ignoring the added benefits of adding images. It's much simpler to work text-only, because it removes many limitations and technical hurdles, but it adds other hurdles to enjoyment, which can make it harder to make it a good/popular game.

I'll just concede here because i can't properly explain what i have in my mind, and since i can't do that, it's probably a sign that i'm wrong. Anyway, through this discussion, i was able to obtain a better understanding of the motivation for doing real porn. Keeping an open mind is the only way to learn afterall.

 

[sp3cial]

This is an interesting topic. I can think of a few things to say about that.

First of all, I have to agree. Many Twine/Sugarcube games are rather average to bad. However, this also applies to games based on other engines. Most Renpy games are not that great either. There are just fewer HTML games here. That's probably why it's more noticeable. Which also applies to QSP games, for example.

However, we are here on F95Zone. The games are free. Therefore, it is difficult for me to complain. Whether a game is good or not, you usually notice quite quickly. Many of them are then simply deleted. That's not a problem (for me). Although, of course, it's a shame about the time the developer wasted on the game.

I have been developing with Twine/Sugarcube myself for some time. And therefore I would like to mention some points, which in my opinion make a good (HTML) game.

1. Avoid the player having to scroll on a page. This is not very user-friendly, for one thing. For another, it usually spoils content. And that's what a lot of HTML games do, unfortunately. That's one thing, they're better in RenPy by default because you can focus on a scene without having to see events that are yet to happen. The worst thing you can do is show multiple images/videos on one page.

2. Better is to split scenes into several small ones and use interactive buttons/links like "Answer", "Talk", "Do somehting" if possible. This makes the whole game more interactive instead of watching it from the 3rd party perspective and the single scene can be enjoyed much better.

3. Keep the tension up. There is nothing worse than a game that after 5 minutes has already reached its main goal and everything else is just variations. I know that's why many games quickly turn into a grindfest (especially HTML or QSP games), because the developer basically meant well to not make everything too easy right away. However, this can also be well done if the scenes are not constantly repeated and there is small progress to be seen.

The point regarding real-porn is probably a matter of taste. Personally I know more games that use real-porn and I like them than usual daz3d model games with linear stories and a few irrelevant choices. The only important thing is that the clips/pictures fit the scenes. Whether the people are always the same doesn't matter that much. It only has to fit the text and be somewhat correct in terms of the sequence.

Developing a good game takes time. And that's probably what most developers don't take. In additional to that, there is the decreasing motivation why many games get abandoned.

 

[stevejackhammer]

Getting Twine to do more complex things is sometimes kind of counterintuitive. I think it was just like "hey, I like this game, but I would do things slightly different, lets create a game in the same engine". Having a solid background in HTML (mostly CSS if you want your game to look anything Unlike the standard Twine games) and JavaScript is a must have.

[Also other people here posting about making HTML/CSS/JavaScript do what they want it to do.]

I'm going to invite people here to look at the progress I'm making with my Twine/Sugarcube-based game, in the earliest stages of development. Nothing to download yet -- just a development diary and screenshots. The link is in the signature. When it gets mature enough, and if people aren't horrified by what I'm doing, I can migrate the development log here. Right now it's a public blog on Buy Me A Coffee -- no membership required or even asked for.

So yes, I had issues with the default UI, for lots of fundamental reasons. I go into those issues in detail in the early posts. I also had serious problems with Ren'Py. Being a web guy, it was much easier to rebuild Twine/Sugarcube into something I liked. I also like that I can use the existing nodejs/npm ecosystem (I get into that too -- the gallery software and the fuzzy search capability for finding character headshots).

What I've got working so far is radically different from Twine/Sugarcube in appearance and in the user experience, but leverages what works well in Twine (the passage system and support from tools like Tweego) to make the game building much easier.

Bottom line is that if you use Twine/Sugarcube out of the box, yeah, it's going to be kinda crappy. It's a shame if you're using it for a great game. But with some skill, you can make an HTML-based game really sing.

 

[stevejackhammer]

I've only played maybe a dozen twine/sugercube games but most off them have:
- wall of text with almost random pictures from time to time
- terrible UX, non responsive design
- tone of grind in a Groundhog Day type loop
- random encounters/events that keep on repeating

How to improve? Devs need to learn. I'm not sending anyone to take game design, user experience and writing courses (but they might help), just play games, read books and try to think what's good, what's not and do the former.

The first two bullets are specific to the technology. Of course, HTML supports images easily, but unless you are good with layout, your mix of images and text will be a mess (flex for the UI elements, flow for the main text-image zone). Likewise, unless you know what you're doing with CSS, your page won't be responsive and will break the moment someone uses an aspect ratio different than the one you developed in.

The last two are game design issues. A Ren'Py game or an RPGM game or a table-top pencil-and-paper RPG could be grind-fests with boring repeated encounters. Do Twine game get more than their fair share? Maybe, though that could be a function of there being fewer Twine games out there compared to Ren'Py. Ren'Py benefits from the larger pool making the bad examples seems less obvious.

[Adding to the repetitive nature of Twine games. Maybe the number of Twine games that are also "real porn" games lends itself to that. Relying on screengrabs from pornclips means forcing your narrative to fir the photos instead of the other way around. If you only have 3 shots of this actress you like, those 3 situations are likely to come up over and over again. For what it's worth, I'm writing the plot first. Once it's done, I'll figure out how to make the pictures fit.]

 

[Tompte]

Bottom line is that if you use Twine/Sugarcube out of the box, yeah, it's going to be kinda crappy. It's a shame if you're using it for a great game. But with some skill, you can make an HTML-based game really sing.

I'd compare it to picking the worst character in a fighting game. It doesn't mean you can't win matches or even be successful with it, but you're going to have to work much, much harder than everyone else in order to achieve comparable results.

 

[stevejackhammer]

I'd compare it to picking the worst character in a fighting game.

Worst? Or the one with the most untapped potential?

 

[Tompte]

Worst? Or the one with the most untapped potential?

You're free to make you're own tier-list, dude.

 

[PTSdev]

The engine itself is not directly linked to the quality of the product, but you have to make conscious design decisions to avoid the traps mentioned above. The "groundhog day" grind in lots of HTML games baffles me, it's such a dumb mechanic, still lots of games come with it. Grind in general is just a terrible way to gate content, imho content unlocks should be linked to player decisions and not to repetition. I also hate it when you have to repeat scenes in Ren'py games. Kills the immersion completely for me.

As for the UI, with some basic CSS/JS you can actually do a lot of great things in Sugarcube. I'm currently developing a management/RPG game in Sugarcube, you can see an example of its UI in the attached pic. (The images in the menu are temporary placeholders, I'm gonna design my own ones when it's time for release.)

Generally, Sugarcube is surprisingly versatile if you put some hours into it. Out of the box, it's very limited, e.g. I needed a complex event / quest management system for my game, because of the game's non-linear core structure. Building it took some iterations, but it's possible.

Real porn is a difficult topic. I do enjoy some real porn games on here, Wife Trainer was a huge inspiration for my own project. I agree that often there's a huge disconnect between the story and the images, because people are too lazy to look for fitting images. There's also the copyright problem, which is why I think games using RP should not be monetized in any way, shape or form.

My game will contain RP, but only if you download a content pack. The "official" release will not contain third party porn images. Release date? Mid 2022. (I won't release a 0.1 version, I want the game to be feature complete when it goes public.)

 

[outsider artisan]

It is far easier to create a good UI in Twine (and in HTML in general) than most other engines used for adult games. I have no idea why decent or even just different UIs are so uncommon, but I think it's just because devs underestimate the vast, easy improvements they can make to the perceived quality of their game and to the player experience with just a bit of HTML and CSS, an amount you could learn in a few evenings or over a weekend.

Compared to other engines which have pre-made UIs like Ren'py and RPGM, Twine is far and away the easiest to alter in significant ways.

 

[outsider artisan]

I'd compare it to picking the worst character in a fighting game. It doesn't mean you can't win matches or even be successful with it, but you're going to have to work much, much harder than everyone else in order to achieve comparable results.

I disagree with both of you. There is no out-of-the-box Twine the way there is an out-of-the-box Ren'py or RPGM. Twine is much more a set of components you need to string together to make something good than a premade VN or RPG for you to dump your assets into. That's not to say it's better or worse: if you're making an RPG or VN, definitely use those other engines. The point is just that the relative simplicity of Twine is actually a factor of it being less opinionated or designed for a specific type of game (genre wise, obviously it is for text-based games primarily).

Just making a new project in RPGM puts you closer to a completed, playable game than most Twine games that are dozens of hours into development.

The low quality issue with Twine games is, imo, just from users who don't actually want to make text-based games and don't have assets, so they see Twine as an "easy" way to make their game. Given that those games typically suck, they are clearly wrong about that.

Point is its less like picking a weak character in a game and more like trying to play with the dev's incomplete test characters and not understanding why your move set doesn't seem finished.

 

[stevejackhammer]

I disagree with both of you. There is no out-of-the-box Twine the way there is an out-of-the-box Ren'py or RPGM.

snip

Just making a new project in RPGM puts you closer to a completed, playable game than most Twine games that are dozens of hours into development.

Ren'Py and RPGM are both opinionated solutions, RPGM more than Ren'Py probably. They look like this. Here's where the text goes. The figures are placed here. And so and so forth. Customization is possible, but it's not easy, especially if the goal runs counter to the opinion of that system as to how that feature being customized should look and work.

Twine really expects to be customized. One of the standard story formats, Snowman, demands it, providing nearly nothing for the developer. Sugarcube ought to be customized. As I stated in my blog, the default UI for that Twine story format is problematic, but it's sorta kinda ok, so people without sufficient web skills just use it the way it is.

The fact is, nothing stops you from tearing out the whole UI and replacing it. The idea behind Twine seems to be to specify a Single Page Application (SPA) standard for CYOA games, aka the "passage" model. On top of that standard is a collection of meta-languages (aka story formats) so you don't program the raw JS, and the on top of those compilers or transpilers (Twine app, Tweego, others) for getting from the meta-language to that JS SPA.

Nowhere in any of that is a detailed UI specified. The only requirement seems to be the existence of a "passages" div. What the rest of the page looks like is up to you.

The low quality issue with Twine games is, imo, just from users who don't actually want to make text-based games and don't have assets, so they see Twine as an "easy" way to make their game. Given that those games typically suck, they are clearly wrong about that.

Oh yeah. I was giving advice to someone here struggling with the layout of his Twine/Sugarcube effort. He had already gone far along in his game, with RPG elements and porn photos and whatnot. Very eager, and I hope it works for him. But the advice I gave him was to put aside all that game stuff. The UI was badly broken, and that needed to be addressed. Get that working (I pointed him to flex tutorials online), and then when that works the way it should, start with the game.

I didn't offer this advice, but I would strongly suggest he write his game out first, no pictures. A great game can survive having bad pictures, but great pictures can't save a bad game.