When I were a lad....

[HopesGaming]

Interesting that you would flag this up as it's clearly a contentious issue and not one I'd meant to get into in my OP.

I wholeheartedly agree that a platform for artists creating original material to promote themselves and recieve donations is a good thing.

I simply react to your comments and replies.

....books, games, albums etc were released when they were ready, not in a half assed "preview" form. What the fuck is it with all the shitty version 0.1 releases on this website, clearly just chancers wanting money for fuck all.

How does this differ from what I am replying to?
Just to clarify, you complaining about games that are not completed before release or as you put it (half assed 'preview' form)
Which is 99% of the devs and their games.
So... What exactly am I getting wrong?

How can you make a whole thread about disliking the concept of it and then write you wholeheartedly agree with it?
Don't get me wrong. If I misunderstood I am truly sorry and I am more than happy to be corrected. But I am merely replying to what I see and how I understand it.

 

[swally77]

If I misunderstood I am truly sorry and I am more than happy to be corrected. But I am merely replying to what I see and how I understand it.

It would seem that you did misunderstand me or perhaps you were so immersed in your own predilections that you lumped the post into your hate box without thinking. Either way, I wish you all the best.

 

[HopesGaming]

It would seem that you did misunderstand me or perhaps you were so immersed in your own predilections that you lumped the post into your hate box without thinking. Either way, I wish you all the best.

You're supposed to tell me where the misunderstanding appeared.
Right now I still do not believe there is a misunderstanding.

Also, I do not have any hate boxes. I do not hate anyone. That would be silly.
But this is a discussion forum and I am discussing matters I feel I have some knowledge about. Such as being a dev.

I mean, you didn't make this thread simply to have people nod and clap, right? You had an issue on your mind which you wanted to start a discussion about.

 

[Sphere42]

I don't see how your personal enjoyment is relevant to anything? My personal feelings and enjoyment, as well as yours, are not relevant. Nothing constructive can be gained from that.
For example, you talk about *way better*... Well, someone else may find what you like as bad and what you think is bad as *way better*.
This idea that we can use our own selves as the de facto of what is right and wrong regarding facts is a bit foolish.
Facts are what should be looked at.

What facts, where do we get them? Since porn games ultimately are a form of entertainment the combined expression of every single consumer's enjoyment SHOULD be the most important fact of all. Money is not the be-all-end-all and even if it were we cannot obtain reliable size estimates of the overall markets from the Flash era until now which would be the most important baseline to correct for.

Okay, this example makes me think you are a bit biased and not really here for a rationale discussion but rather just want to be *right*.
To give it a bit of contrast. It'd be the same as showing kindergartens playing football and then professional playing ice hockey and be like "See! Football is easy and kids can do it but ice hockey is skills and for pros!"
To stupidify even more; you showing the lowest effort from one part to a high effort on another part to justify your beliefs. It is purposely twisting facts which I am not a huge fan of.

Something Unlimited, Summertime sage and Four Elements Trainer are all 2dcg. You think those are easier to make than a copy-paste java code with a 2 frames animation?

Milfy City, Being a DIK, CoBD, Strive for power, and the list goes on and on.
There are so many games out there and you say that the involved skill and time effort is lower than the average java game? And let us be honest here, the average *known* java game is typically 5 mins in length where the average *known* f95 game is several hours.

Sorry but the current selection is way too large for me to maintain a fair overview, meanwhile I've had a long time to "catch up" on old flash games so there definitely is some bias in that regard. But keep in mind my complaints are only directed at the "v0.01 demo" culture and devs going AWOL not those who stick to their guns and actually follow a project through to completion. Back then most individual "games" were short(er) but the artists then moved on to the next project so with the monthly subscription model I'm mostly comparing those short single-release Flash games to individual updates nowadays (not for the likes of Slave Maker of course!)

One additional issue here is the general evolution of the community. As old technologies/strategies are figured out and become common knowledge to the veterans new ones are built on top of that, and supporting technologies also evolve and are brought into porn game development. All of these improvements would theoretically be available without any shift in the porn game "market", you can throw Flash files on github and make a dev wiki all the same nowadays.

My game, as an example, is free after a week or two after release. It's a way to say thanks to the ones that pledge. After that, it will be available for the public. This is a common method for most devs out there.
How is this demanding something as you try to proclaim? No one is forced or coerced into pledging. They do it because they want to support.

Then you fall pretty close to the "demand no money" extreme on that scale and none of my complaints are directed at people even remotely like you. The exact delay time is debatable of course but "less than one funding period" definitely is very low.

And even for the devs that are the type who keep it hidden behind a paywall. Or have bonus content or whatever.
So what? Why are they not allowed to make a profit out of their passion? They are not forcing anyone or using illegal means.

What is it about devs earning money that you dislike so much? It's so weird how you try to make it sound like they are these kinds of evil beings that only think of money and nothing else.
Using example of people that don't make money and be like "See, these people are so good-hearted. They make free stuff to me."

I despise most forms of advertising and want to see it separated from actual content. Not "banned" just clearly signposted because most of those demos are annoying clutter to me. Mind you that is not limited to porn games, I run uBlock and if I actually want commercial offers I can look on amazon or read the relevant pamphlets/catalogues for brick and mortar stores near me. Again, I am arguing against a specific subgroup of "games" which feel like they are explicitly designed solely to funnel people to the subscription system, not everyone who happens to place their Patreon ID in the corner of the main menu.

What does it matter when it becomes relevant or not? The main point was that not many devs would be willing to make a porn game for 2-3 years before release. Especially when 95% of them are amateurs that have never tried it before. It is such a gamble to take all because you don't want to hurt some people that get hurt by other people making money. Of course they wouldn't take such a gamble.

How will those who would be discouraged by that not get discouraged anyway after a few months when they don't immediately rake in the big bux?

The more money that goes into an industry the better it will flourish. That is common sense.

Not in my experience. I don't know whether it's money itself, time, attracting attention from a specific kind of people (shareholder trading?) or what but the mainstream gaming industry went to shit some time after the release of Warcraft 3. Except for the graphics of course.

Read your whole posts and your points. 99% of it is aimed towards the normal devs and your dislike for the patreon style of earnings. Smokescreen/Red herrings.

Maybe I just didn't elaborate enough, I have different grievances aimed at different groups. The scammers should get shut down and fined. Non-scam demos, "subscriber fishing" and the like should be identified on this site via an "early development" tag accompanied by a functioning exclusion filter (a "status prefix" should work, the tagging system on this site in junk). Sites like Patreon should either firmly limit themselves to handling "donations" (NO PAYWALLS AT ALL!) or enable subscribers to hold recipients accountable for missed goals and similar failings (if the plumber doesn't show up he doesn't get paid either). Basically if you make it through the first 2-3 updates and don't deliberately scam people later on you shouldn't notice any difference.

And OP was only ranting about "version 0.1" games so that doesn't even include a lot of what we've been talking about.

 

[polywog]

The flash days? You mean those 5 mins games? No offense to anything related to flash, but those can't be compared to the current markets adult games. Flash games had a different purpose and, even tho they would take skills to make, did not take as time to make.

Also, wouldn't most 0.01 and 0.02 be around the same length as those old flash games and hence defeat the purpose of the current discussion?
About the money, I am pretty sure there was money involved back then. Especially the sites that hosted the games. Full of ads.
But there is probably a reason why there are fewer nowadays than back then.

I'd like to see more devs using flash.

 

[SeventhVixen]

There is nothing wrong about the OP message (Scam is shit), except maybe the confusing reference between "complete games are good" and "scamming is bad" Because devs making 0.1 doesn't mean Scams. Scams are scams, completed games are completed games, ongoing games are ongoing games, all of those things are not like the others. (waiting quote).

Many subjects have been touched, so I'll touch many subjects, making a, of course, post that is going nowhere.

When I started making amateur games, there were not even Steam Greenlight. We made the games for the likes and long discussions about the flow of the game in the forum. Not talking about RPGmaker, there was a lot of that too, but I'm talking about graphic adventures (one of the oldest amateur making games niche). You could just expect 200 or 300 people playing your game. In these modern days, thousands and thousands of people play your games, and I find more easy someone just giving you some money than writting feedback. (Different things, but both important)

Beyond the long discussion about the devs that make games only for the money vs The Others, those mysterious inhabitants of the island that maybe just want to have all time available to make games thanks to earning money precisely due to making games...

Funny thing about all of this. This forum is right now mostly not even a pirate forum. Most people here play games that are released free by the devs; Not even a hacker is needed to crack the code in 90% of the games that appear every week. Meaning, the effort to play, Or Not Play any game, is minimal.

As a positive guy, I always thought that one doesn't criticise what is given for you for free. Constructive criticism to maybe fix something? Sure. That doesn't start by "This shit is shit, crappy crap, worst 0.27 evah".

I'll grab those sweet free epic launcher games. Will I whine if the game doesn't even launch because epic launcher is shit in half of the games? Yes. Will I post a comment saying I don't like it, return me my money... Wait... No. (Wait, post a comment where?)

Reality is that some devs release 0.1s low in content. I played a lot of 0.1s I don't liked, or didn't highly amused me. I just moved on. If I disliked 0.1s, I will just not play 0.1s. If Id disliked giving money to other people, I won't give money to other people. If I dislike NTR, I won't play NTR games. If I like NTR games, I won't ask every other game to have NTR. If I dislike Renpy, I won't go to every renpy game thread to tell the dev change the engine.

Just enjoy the games you enjoy, don't pay a dime if you don't want to, be a happy fellow.

Complaining against scams, or 0.1s, doesn't going to change scams, nor 0.1s. There is nothing wrong with 0.1s, because every travel starts with a first step, and the dev is just sharing that first step with people for free. If he puts strange paywalls in the 0.1, he may be a scammer, or just have a bad marketing sense, or follow bad examples. Scammers are going to scam. In game making, adult, sfw, in your mail, in your telephone, and in the street. And there are scammers because there are people who is easy to get scammed, same as there are people who gets cheated easy, or bullied easy, or fooled easy.

As many times has been said, patreon is a tip jar. Some patrons may expect stuff in return from their tip and others not. Is different with every patron and every dev. Only those who give money are suitable to realise if their money goes to a good place. Other people can yell to the heavens that a patreon/kickstarter/steam early access project is a scam, sometimes it will be heared by someone, sometimes not. But is a case per case basis.

How long a 0.1 must be so a guy giving 10 bucks to the dev is being scammed or just wanted to pay off his enjoyment? 30 minutes, 5 hours? Can he pay 500 bucks if he wants because he had his best fap ever in life?

A game that starts with big illusion, even if is a DMD clone, can go far, or can go down. People can tip in the hope it goes far. Sometimes their hope will be realised, sometimes it will not.

This is pointless, so I just write it for the fun of it while waiting some renders to finish xD

 

[おい！]

 

[anne O'nymous]

....books, games, albums etc were released when they were ready, not in a half assed "preview" form.

Well... Firstly it's not exactly true. There always were stories published chapter by chapter in magazine before being published as book, and back in time, it wasn't this rare that two/three singles were release before the LP ; it even happened time to time in the early years of CD.
Secondly, the games found here are mainly made by indie devs who, for the large majority of them, works alone and cover their cost with their own money before starting to earn some bucks. You can't compare them to professional studio that can use the money from their previous games or take a loan to fund the game they are making.

What the fuck is it with all the shitty version 0.1 releases on this website, clearly just chancers wanting money for fuck all.

Then what are you doing here ? Just go on dl-site and stop bothering us with you whining.

 

[polywog]

What have we learned?

People don't like getting scammed? no, we all knew that.
People like getting something for their money? no, that's a given. I shipped 6400 DVDs last month
People get jealous of other people making money? no, that's been going on since time immemorial.

Back when this site was new, I suggested that demos, and less than V0.3 should have a separate page.
My suggestion was shot down, because there were only a few dozen games on the site, and it wasn't worth the effort.
But things have changes, there are thousands of games here now, and it's time to do some organizing....

A Mobile Games page, to make it easier for mobile device users, to get their fap on.
Separate the men from the boys, with a Demo Games page, and ban whiny users from visiting that page.

 

[SecretSal]

I remember hanging around message boards when text-only adult interactive fiction games were my choice of smut. Games were only released when they were fully done, and there were some crackers by Newkid, Christopher Cole, GoblinBoy, One-Eyed Jack, Adam Hendine, A. Bomire, BBBen (who's thankfully still making games) and others. I used to go months waiting for a single release, and hope that somebody would make the extra effort to code a game in TADS, because ADRIFT was a pain to play in.

It was a great feeling playing a game from start to finish, and you could feel the care that went into each finished product. That being said, I was still waiting months on end for a text-only game to drop. Compared to today, when I can log into this site and see a new update for a game I'm interested in almost every day. Never mind the 'member berries, there's no way I want the clock to turn back. Even if some updates are thin, and some projects are scammy, and others are amateurish, I'm still getting a hell of a lot more entertainment out of adult games these days, and that's not even accounting for the jump in production values. I mean, in games like Last Hope, I can wander around a spaceship in first-person 3d while indulging in depravity. Not exactly missing Lula 3D here.

Sure, Patreon can be a minefield, and a fool and their money are easily parted. But just because the mechanism for conning credulous pervs exists doesn't make the structure inherently bad. Some basic intuition and a working sense of risk-reward is all you need to ensure you don't get strung along on empty promises. As for myself, there have been too many games that I've enjoyed that came out of this system that I can't really begrudge it anything.

Sometimes I wonder if we're living in a golden age for independent adult games and whether something is coming down the line that might cause the whole thing to come to a grinding halt (puritanical censorship, Patreon getting taken down and the userbase all scattering, etc). Hopefully not, and things will only get better, but I'm still enjoying the ride as it is right now.

 

[swally77]

Well... Firstly it's not exactly true. There always were stories published chapter by chapter in magazine before being published as book, and back in time, it wasn't this rare that two/three singles were release before the LP ; it even happened time to time in the early years of CD.

Funny, I bet you just copy pasted this argument without actualy reading the OP just so you would look good and cool. do you feel good and cool now? I hope so...

 

[anne O'nymous]

do you feel good and cool now? I hope so...

It's internet, you know ? How exactly can one feel good and/or cool because he wrote something on it ?

 

[swally77]

It's internet, you know ? How exactly can one feel good and/or cool because he wrote something on it ?

As I suspected, you don't understand English, nothing to be ashamed of, just be careful

 

[anne O'nymous]

As I suspected, you don't understand English, nothing to be ashamed of, just be careful

Near to 30 minutes, and it's all you found ? Seriously ?