- May 28, 2017
- 4,371
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Same would go for me. Even if the game turns out to be a flop, abandoning it means backstabbing all those who did put in trust and support. It's everything or nothing at all.
When you have nothing good to say
- Thread starter Segnbora
- Start date
- Sep 29, 2017
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There's no recovery from forced NTR when you have to do mental gymnastics to follow a love route
That's commendable, but I do think we have to be realistic and realise that (at least for some devs) it's just a business. Which doesn't mean it's not also a labour of love.
Any business which doesn't make enough money WILL go bankrupt / fail.
So if the costs of developing a game (time x hourly rate + hardware costs + assets + etc.) is significantly more than what a game brings on Patreon, then unfortunately it's often time to quit, from a business perspective.
What clouds this issue is that there are:
- Large variance in what hourly rate is acceptable, depending also on the dev's country of origin
- A number of "amateurs" (i.e. people who don't rely on their game to make a living) as well as a number of people for whom their game is their sole source of income
If you say something bad, say the good thing to balance it out.
Behind every work is effort and several hours. Maybe the update is total rubbish and you write that the current update is not well received and it is somewhat weak but the images for it were beautifully rendered.
E.g. there was a case of a game that came out recently. The inventor is working the first 3 updates with RENPY and suddenly he arrives with UNITY and 1 memory slot.... many people were angry and said that openly.
I had added that if he should make such a step he should do it first by polling. Let's say 95% would want Unity, I wouldn't care about the 5%. But since we know that 99% love Renpy, any other software would almost be a declaration of war.
Since I found out that he uses UNITY to learn the software, I recommended him to release a RENPY version anyway so he doesn't annoy people and he can also learn UNITY.
It is never good to annoy people who support you unless you are not dependent on their money.
Behind every work is effort and several hours. Maybe the update is total rubbish and you write that the current update is not well received and it is somewhat weak but the images for it were beautifully rendered.
E.g. there was a case of a game that came out recently. The inventor is working the first 3 updates with RENPY and suddenly he arrives with UNITY and 1 memory slot.... many people were angry and said that openly.
I had added that if he should make such a step he should do it first by polling. Let's say 95% would want Unity, I wouldn't care about the 5%. But since we know that 99% love Renpy, any other software would almost be a declaration of war.
Since I found out that he uses UNITY to learn the software, I recommended him to release a RENPY version anyway so he doesn't annoy people and he can also learn UNITY.
It is never good to annoy people who support you unless you are not dependent on their money.
- Jul 19, 2017
- 1,899
- 4,054
As I dev I welcome criticism, some of it pretty harsh at times, and so it's known yeah, it hurts... but it can definitely be needed. Coming from an era where flame wars were TRULY epic I rarely see any critiques on here that are too insane tonally, I see a bunch that are factually wrong, and that bothers me more than anything else.
That being said, not all devs are thick skinned, we are people too... and some decide to lash out at fans who have concerns about a title they enjoyed. That's shitty, but there isn't much you can do about that. Not saying that this is what happened in this case at all, but I have seen it a lot over the years. People seeing criticism of their work as criticism of them as a person. Don't let that hold you back from being honest...
That being said, not all devs are thick skinned, we are people too... and some decide to lash out at fans who have concerns about a title they enjoyed. That's shitty, but there isn't much you can do about that. Not saying that this is what happened in this case at all, but I have seen it a lot over the years. People seeing criticism of their work as criticism of them as a person. Don't let that hold you back from being honest...
- Aug 30, 2017
- 1,803
- 3,216
I've been arguing on the internet since 1986, so I do indeed remember the days of epic flamewars. 
With regard to the game in question, the dev posted a sort of manifesto in which he stated that he believes he's on the right path and isn't going to change much of anything. In light of that, and because it's pretty clear he's working out some pretty negative feelings about women by putting those feelings into his game, me continuing to wish (in digital print or otherwise) for something elseis just pointless carping, so I'm bowing out. Better to focus on games where the dev is actually responsive to feedback, even if in the end they decide to reject it.
With regard to the game in question, the dev posted a sort of manifesto in which he stated that he believes he's on the right path and isn't going to change much of anything. In light of that, and because it's pretty clear he's working out some pretty negative feelings about women by putting those feelings into his game, me continuing to wish (in digital print or otherwise) for something elseis just pointless carping, so I'm bowing out. Better to focus on games where the dev is actually responsive to feedback, even if in the end they decide to reject it.
Must remember. The dev is making the game the way he envisions it to be. So if he/she replied that that part of the aspect isn't going to change then the only sensible thing to do is to move on.
The important part is that the dev listens to the feedback and is responsive. Make it clear at the start which direction he/she is going with the game. If the direction makes a 180 turn out of nowhere, then it's understandable people go a bit cray cray.
But if it has been the same since the start, then individuals can't just go in and demand it to change. Especially if there is already a lot of people that like how it is.
Regarding the negativity. In my game thread, there were a couple of those. Some are ones that simply do not like one aspect of the game. But I don't really consider that negativity in the toxic sense.
Just some who wanted to share what they did not like. Responded and had some civil talks.
Generally, the majority of the negative people are not being negative for the sake of being negative but have genuine concerns.
It's actually outside my game thread that I find those toxic people. These are the types of people that for no reasons just reply to people they don't know with replies full of condescending, toxicity and just outright crude replies.
I had a fair share of dealing with these types. I usually reply once and twice. And if I see them getting more and more agitated I just leave. They not in it for a civil discussion but simply for the toxicity. Engaging them will only lead to twisting of words, derailing and pointless back and forth.
But alas, just part of the internet.
The important part is that the dev listens to the feedback and is responsive. Make it clear at the start which direction he/she is going with the game. If the direction makes a 180 turn out of nowhere, then it's understandable people go a bit cray cray.
But if it has been the same since the start, then individuals can't just go in and demand it to change. Especially if there is already a lot of people that like how it is.
Regarding the negativity. In my game thread, there were a couple of those. Some are ones that simply do not like one aspect of the game. But I don't really consider that negativity in the toxic sense.
Just some who wanted to share what they did not like. Responded and had some civil talks.
Generally, the majority of the negative people are not being negative for the sake of being negative but have genuine concerns.
It's actually outside my game thread that I find those toxic people. These are the types of people that for no reasons just reply to people they don't know with replies full of condescending, toxicity and just outright crude replies.
I had a fair share of dealing with these types. I usually reply once and twice. And if I see them getting more and more agitated I just leave. They not in it for a civil discussion but simply for the toxicity. Engaging them will only lead to twisting of words, derailing and pointless back and forth.
But alas, just part of the internet.
- Aug 28, 2018
- 1,896
- 2,877
When I saw the title of this thread, I instantly thought of the saying "If you have nothing good to say, come sit next to me" which has been credited to Fanny Brice and others over history. Joking aside, when I released the first Episode of my new VN, the response was brutal, and some people were downright mean. Not unlike @Segnbora I have been arguing on the internet for a long time, and on bulletin board systems long before that. So, I shouldn't have been surprised, but I was a bit.
The thing that helped me is that some people (@ThunderRob) who were early critics also recognized that by my responses I was someone who really cared about the criticism I was getting, and offered to take out the haters for me so I wouldn't have to bother with them as much.
I must echo the responses of other developers to this thread. Even if I don't like the way criticism is delivered, I do read all criticism and take it under advisement. Some things cause changes (anyone who downloads Episode 2 of my game to come in March will see that), while some things do not. I am not so big-headed that I think that what I do is perfect and can't use improvement. However, like Dr. Pink Cake (Acting Lessons), I do have my own vision for what I am trying to create, and I will continue to work hard to make sure that I stay consistent to the creative vision that I have, regardless of the people out there who may hate it.
I will be the first one to admit that my VN utilizes a very different approach than most adult VNs, and anytime something unfamiliar is introduced, it takes time to catch on and for it to find an audience. I just hope that people who like the early parts of my work will enjoy the product as it develops and grows. So for everyone who doesn't have something nice to say, thank you and even if I don't like it, I am reading it and it does matter to me.
The thing that helped me is that some people (@ThunderRob) who were early critics also recognized that by my responses I was someone who really cared about the criticism I was getting, and offered to take out the haters for me so I wouldn't have to bother with them as much.
I must echo the responses of other developers to this thread. Even if I don't like the way criticism is delivered, I do read all criticism and take it under advisement. Some things cause changes (anyone who downloads Episode 2 of my game to come in March will see that), while some things do not. I am not so big-headed that I think that what I do is perfect and can't use improvement. However, like Dr. Pink Cake (Acting Lessons), I do have my own vision for what I am trying to create, and I will continue to work hard to make sure that I stay consistent to the creative vision that I have, regardless of the people out there who may hate it.
I will be the first one to admit that my VN utilizes a very different approach than most adult VNs, and anytime something unfamiliar is introduced, it takes time to catch on and for it to find an audience. I just hope that people who like the early parts of my work will enjoy the product as it develops and grows. So for everyone who doesn't have something nice to say, thank you and even if I don't like it, I am reading it and it does matter to me.
As a dev who would like to get more feedback on his own game, I think I can probably classify comments as useful and not useful types.
Useful:
Useful:
- Bug reports (for things not already listed in the Known Issues)
- Usability issues/requests
- Requests for things to be included in future content
- Issues or possible improvements to particular sections of content
- Things that require my budget to be bringing in 10x more cash to be able to afford
- Requests that would involve scrapping or replacing months of work
- Requests to spend several weeks or months to add in one person's niche fetish
- Aug 30, 2017
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Seamanq, I glanced at your game's thread and I have to say that admire the way you handle feedback, even though some of it's harsh. Along similar lines, I recently praised the dev of Culture Shock for responding to a tidal wave of complaints with a sort of masterclass on how to take in criticism even though you have a strong vision.
That said, the latter example just draws a highlighted border around when it's useful to give negative feedback vs. when it's not. There was something that an apparent majority of players viewed as a stealth forced-NTR situation in a game that promised an alternative route. I'm not bothered by NTR in the least, but I agreed with the essence of the complaint. There was an initial period of resistance, but eventually the dev went back and looked at what he'd done with fresh eyes, realized it was a mistake, and fixed it.
Whereas with Because I Love Her the dev has not only dug his feet in (which is fine), he's concluded that the critiques are little more than undesirable negativity. Maybe some of them are. But a lot of them aren't. He's clearly going to double down on an abrupt left turn into violence, blackmail, and rape. Again, that's his perogative, but I note that he hasn't responded, or even engaged with, criticism of his latest release. That's a sign that criticism is probably useless, now and in the future.
DaScoot, I hear you. I leapt with all eleven feet into a somewhat feverish discussion about The Adventurous Couple because it was a game that was losing its way and that no longer made much narrative sense. Knowing that the dev was going to attempt a revamp to right the ship, I and others offered a massive pile of suggestions and comments, but all of mine were based on the idea that he wouldn't have to alter or add a single render. All the problems with the game are in the code, and they can all be fixed in the code, but even the greater unmet potential of the game is fixable simply through a combination of code and alternate or additional dialogue. I know very well that asking for more (or different) artwork is pointless and means that a revamp will never happen.
That said, the latter example just draws a highlighted border around when it's useful to give negative feedback vs. when it's not. There was something that an apparent majority of players viewed as a stealth forced-NTR situation in a game that promised an alternative route. I'm not bothered by NTR in the least, but I agreed with the essence of the complaint. There was an initial period of resistance, but eventually the dev went back and looked at what he'd done with fresh eyes, realized it was a mistake, and fixed it.
Whereas with Because I Love Her the dev has not only dug his feet in (which is fine), he's concluded that the critiques are little more than undesirable negativity. Maybe some of them are. But a lot of them aren't. He's clearly going to double down on an abrupt left turn into violence, blackmail, and rape. Again, that's his perogative, but I note that he hasn't responded, or even engaged with, criticism of his latest release. That's a sign that criticism is probably useless, now and in the future.
DaScoot, I hear you. I leapt with all eleven feet into a somewhat feverish discussion about The Adventurous Couple because it was a game that was losing its way and that no longer made much narrative sense. Knowing that the dev was going to attempt a revamp to right the ship, I and others offered a massive pile of suggestions and comments, but all of mine were based on the idea that he wouldn't have to alter or add a single render. All the problems with the game are in the code, and they can all be fixed in the code, but even the greater unmet potential of the game is fixable simply through a combination of code and alternate or additional dialogue. I know very well that asking for more (or different) artwork is pointless and means that a revamp will never happen.
- Aug 28, 2018
- 1,896
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- Jul 19, 2017
- 1,899
- 4,054
I think the big thing with vision can be that in many ways it can blind us to potential flaws in a project because we are so darn attached to a particular scene or a particular way something has to be done. It's tough, with some of my projects by far the biggest fights have come about internally, where half the team thinks one thing works and half thinks that it's flaming garbage. The funny thing is, that no matter how bad those fights get, on the whole it had ended up with better results.
So I guess my view is that it's always great to have a vision, and there will be certain things that can never change. I never quite got games that just went forward based on a poll or what have you, though I suppose some writers can do that just fine. So a vision is key. But sometimes critique can help you better understand the best way to bring about your vision. If enough people are saying something doesn't work... then there is likely something wrong... or at least something you could be doing better. Which sucks when it's a scene or update you put a load of time into, but harsh criticism can often be the most effective... again, with there being a difference between straight up useless flaming, and actual reasoned critique, though if you can read between the lines there is often value even in the former.
In many ways I think we're lucky to have such a crazy wide base for feedback here, even if it gets rough from time to time.
So I guess my view is that it's always great to have a vision, and there will be certain things that can never change. I never quite got games that just went forward based on a poll or what have you, though I suppose some writers can do that just fine. So a vision is key. But sometimes critique can help you better understand the best way to bring about your vision. If enough people are saying something doesn't work... then there is likely something wrong... or at least something you could be doing better. Which sucks when it's a scene or update you put a load of time into, but harsh criticism can often be the most effective... again, with there being a difference between straight up useless flaming, and actual reasoned critique, though if you can read between the lines there is often value even in the former.
In many ways I think we're lucky to have such a crazy wide base for feedback here, even if it gets rough from time to time.
- Aug 30, 2017
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I used to be a professional journalist, and as much as they constantly chapped my hide and drove me to furious and righteous arguments, I am immensely grateful that I had equally strong-willed and extremely talented editors. They made me a much better writer. Everyone needs someone to tell them "no, this sucks, go make it better" from time to time. Including devs.
Eventually, I offered an objection in the thread. The dev responded that he'd envisioned the "reveal" scene from the moment he conceived of the story. When it finally arrived, however, the scene in no way lived up to the narrative weight it was expected to carry. In the end, the fiancée absolved them because she was pregnant, and while annoyed she couldn't worry about such trivial matters anymore. If there was some earlier version of the story in which that was sensible or powerful, it was no longer anything but a deus ex handwave by the time the game actually got to that crisis point. That was a clear example of a dev so fixated on a specific scene that he couldn't see what it had done to the coherence of his narrative.
So, a game I quite enjoy: Triangle. As it went on, I was increasingly incredulous that the MC would hide his sexual dalliance with Jenny from his fiancée. His extremely sex-positive, kinky, bisexual fiancée who'd already confessed her attraction to Jenny. Yet he continued to hide it.
Eventually, I offered an objection in the thread. The dev responded that he'd envisioned the "reveal" scene from the moment he conceived of the story. When it finally arrived, however, the scene in no way lived up to the narrative weight it was expected to carry. In the end, the fiancée absolved them because she was pregnant, and while annoyed she couldn't worry about such trivial matters anymore. If there was some earlier version of the story in which that was sensible or powerful, it was no longer anything but a deus ex handwave by the time the game actually got to that crisis point. That was a clear example of a dev so fixated on a specific scene that he couldn't see what it had done to the coherence of his narrative.