VN Ren'Py Who even uses rollback?! xD

How do you use rollback function?

  • Only to correct missclick etc. / I never use it

    Votes: 11 18.3%
  • To check alternative routes, but I stick to my original choice

    Votes: 13 21.7%
  • To find the "correct" one

    Votes: 19 31.7%
  • To make sure that given option means the same thing that I assumed it does

    Votes: 25 41.7%
  • To check alternative routes, but I stick to my original choice, unless it's something bad

    Votes: 25 41.7%

  • Total voters
    60
Oct 21, 2023
237
182
Hey! Quick poll that I made wondering, if I am the "regular" kind of player or maybe I am an outlier?

How do you usually play RenPy VN's?
I know - it depends! But for the sake of discussion and the poll, let's just assume that it's your standard generic VN of the theme you like.
Your character is asked "Hey! Would like to come over tonight?" and your options are:
1. Sure baby!
2. But...
3. Isn't it too soon?

What do you do?
I encourage you to expand on your answer in the comments as well, or share your ideas for option not on the list!
 
Last edited:
  • Thinking Face
Reactions: ♍VoidTraveler
Oct 21, 2023
237
182
"To check alternative routes, but I stick to my original choice, unless it's something bad" added.
Actually I know it's not the correct format, but I am not sure how to word that question and options to represent all major ways.
 

woody554

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2018
1,370
1,730
it really depends a lot how the dev has established the system early and if he can be trusted to not fuck up his own game. most devs can't be trusted.

if the choices don't mislead you I never roll back.

if they're blind choices, it depends on whether there are bad outcomes or not. quite often you can't choose wrong no matter what so the choice is meaningless anyway. this is also the type I most likely quit after 10 minutes unless there's something very special. blind choices with (very) bad outcomes I do brute-force.

if the dev deliberately misleads you I brute-force the outcome. there's no point in playing if you're not given relevant info.

incomplete info is fine, if only there's logic to the outcome. a difficult but logical choice is probably the most satisfying one to play. mostly it comes down to whether the outcomes are logical or not.
 

woody554

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2018
1,370
1,730
Your character is asked "Hey! Would like to come over tonight?" and your options are:
1. Sure baby!
2. But...
3. Isn't it too soon?
seems railroady so in the absence of 4. "go fuck yourself and never interact with me again" I'd likely quit. the game is trying to force a girl on me so I'll do anything to avoid it.

a lot of games with pointless free sex side characters trying to force themselves on me make me wish there was an option to kill off the character. like just pull a lever, a trapdoor opens, and they were never seen again.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mypossiblepasts
Oct 21, 2023
237
182
seems railroady so in the absence of 4. "go fuck yourself and never interact with me again" I'd likely quit. the game is trying to force a girl on me so I'll do anything to avoid it.

a lot of games with pointless free sex side characters trying to force themselves on me make me wish there was an option to kill off the character. like just pull a lever, a trapdoor opens, and they were never seen again.
Uhm, I guess partially my bad for not specifying more, partially on you for assuming :D
I thought more about end-game scenario with well established character. But nvm, what you wrote here I can 100% agree on. And I think there should be a way to make a sex driven character that feels right and fitting! But it's not the "easy" route for devs so... Haven't seen one yet.

I want to expand on your first comment more, but I'll have to do it later. All I'll say rn is:
I wish I could read it before I made the post!
 

coffeeaddicted

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
1,765
1,434
In my experience, people want the "one" outcome. If that doesn't happen, they cheat.
Not sure about misleading, though from a story perspective, it is common for an author not to reveal the truth, because that would be just boring.
It is today's movies that explain pretty much everything to the audience and so the movies aren't really meant to think about it.
Now with games, this applies too.
If there aren't any twist or turns, it become predictable and therefore boring.

As for movies, look at Mulholland Dr. You don't get it by just watching it once.
StarWars on the other hand is rather dull.

As for rollback, it's main purpose is for players to roll back because they didn't want to miss a certain outcome. Got to less points and can't get naughty. Oh no, roll back.
Or, i don't want to meet this guy or women in scene whatever.
It's kind of cheating yourself out of the meaning of a story.

Though there are indeed some games (here) where you are mislead.
Forgot a pill? Or something?

As for games where the dev let's you chose your actions but doesn't alter the story, Soma comes to mind.
The dev want's you to think what you done and why.

Since these are porn games, everyone complains anyway because this or that didn't happen.

Ideally the player shouldn't be aware that he can't do X because he did Y. But then people read on the forum that this and that is happening and.... so choice is kind of redundant in my opinion.

Rollback is default and people will complain if they can't do it unless they know how to enable it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Glib_Gentleman

desmosome

Conversation Conqueror
Sep 5, 2018
6,103
14,096
I play with URM, so I know variable changes that comes from a choice, so I don't bother checking every choice all the time. I sometimes read a little bit into choices I didn't make just to see what's what, but I generally only have one main playthrough (usually corruption and depraved routes) that I am doing. I keep save points for crucial choices for back up.

But the most common use of rollback is just to read something again... basically like a message log that is conveniently tied to mousewheel.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mypossiblepasts

woody554

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2018
1,370
1,730
Not sure about misleading, though from a story perspective, it is common for an author not to reveal the truth, because that would be just boring.
when we talk about misleading we mean situations like:

choice 1: "tell her you love her" resulting in girl leaving.
choice 2: "tell her to go fuck herself" resulting in girl giving a bj.


Since these are porn games, everyone complains anyway because this or that didn't happen.
yeah that's very true and we shouldn't put too much weight on complaints anyway.

the old rule of thumb is: if a reader tells you something is wrong with your story, they're almost always right. when they tell you how to fix it they're almost always wrong.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Luderos

♍VoidTraveler

Forum Fanatic
Apr 14, 2021
5,351
13,620
Your character is asked "Hey! Would like to come over tonight?" and your options are:
1. Sure baby!
2. But...
3. Isn't it too soon?

What do you do?
I'd go with 1, doesn't look like there's any reason why i shouldn't, so why not?
3 implies that mc suspects this could be an invite for a fuck, but where does the person inviting him imply that?
That's right, nowhere, it's all in mc's head. So this could be just friendly invite for dinner with nothing sexual whatsoever involved.
2 is basically 'wtf is even this choice, bro?' i'll never pick something pointless like that. :whistle::coffee:
 
Oct 21, 2023
237
182
But the most common use of rollback is just to read something again...
Oh, duuuh me.
Forgot about the most common usage
I guess it's so common that my mind took it for granted.

I think I really need to redo this poll cause it starts to be fubar.
I guess maybe "I use rollback for:" kind of thing with multiple choices?
 

coffeeaddicted

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
1,765
1,434
when we talk about misleading we mean situations like:

choice 1: "tell her you love her" resulting in girl leaving.
choice 2: "tell her to go fuck herself" resulting in girl giving a bj.




yeah that's very true and we shouldn't put too much weight on complaints anyway.

the old rule of thumb is: if a reader tells you something is wrong with your story, they're almost always right. when they tell you how to fix it they're almost always wrong.
Yes, i'll get that.
Choices like these are just childsplay. Probably the wrong term to describe it but actions suppose to have reasons.
But the same i do see in movies as well. Lazy writing.

I have to be honest. Some games, pretending to offer choices, but the character you control goes one direction anyway no matter what you chose.
(mostly) men with their pants open want the sex part and no matter the story, they will cheat in order to get there. So the story doesn't really matter and i think i didn't came personally across where the story is merely more than a means to the end.
This becomes quite boring. In some sense kinetic stories are more fulfilling. At least i see what the author had in mind and go along for the ride.

I don't know if i would be a good story teller. There was a time when i thought, i can do this. Obviously i can't.
Time being the biggest problem.
So to create a story that makes sense, you have to think off many things and especially the render itself should give you a clue about a situation, the context.
I spend my time just rendering images for my own pleasure. Why? Because it's hot but at the same time, i couldn't come up with something unique.
And you see a lot of "new" games that have the same theme, same everything.

I remember playing a game called (something) Rebecca and it started out pretty good. A lot of details were paid to emotions which made it very compelling. Though it took a different direction and i lost interest.
Meaning, it matters really what you convey in a scene to correspond with choices. There aren't many games that are really good, where the story actually makes sense.
Now being a porn game, you can argue that it doesn't matter because sex.

A game that i really liked because of choice given but not a lot of people like is Love of my Life.
People usually hate it for the characters. I think.
But it has a story that moves you. Not many games on her made me feel like that.
A dev needs a lot of time to create something good and most don't have that time. So you see a lot of E- games.

I try to image a dev that would listen to the fan base. How would he or she change the problems. Most of the time the dev has to change the beginning. If it's renders, they can be better latter on. Maybe an update for the early parts later on.
But the story? This is quite hard. Lots of rewrite and changing the code. Not really easy.
Which explains why so many titles get abandoned.
 
  • Like
Reactions: woody554
Oct 21, 2023
237
182
if they're blind choices, it depends on whether there are bad outcomes or not. quite often you can't choose wrong no matter what so the choice is meaningless anyway. this is also the type I most likely quit after 10 minutes unless there's something very special.
Uhm. i'd disagree with your sentiment generally. I left this part for last, and now I ran out of time to write it again :'D
But from my experience - VN's here have waaaaaay too little choices. I tried https://f95zone.to/threads/trapped-in-a-fantasy-femdom-brothel-v0-03-00-free-jonnymelabo.175885/ yesterday, although it's not my kind of game, I wanted to give it a try.
But then I was able to turn on skip mode, take a piss, and it was still skipping when I came back.

I exxagerate in the case of this game, but I actually played ones where it would be true.

I need choices to make me invested and immersed and interested. I don't play VN for a bookreading experience.
And here -is the clue.
"Can't choose wrong" =/= meaningless
But that depends on the type of game so I don't think we are disagreeing, just thinking of different things.
I love flavor choices, like being able to choose between "Yes" and "Yes darling".
incomplete info is fine, if only there's logic to the outcome. a difficult but logical choice is probably the most satisfying one to play.
The 2nd line is connected with my reason to make this post. I am trying to come up with The Golden RenPy scene.
Do you like hints? What kind mostly?
I play with URM, so I know variable changes that comes from a choice, so I don't bother checking every choice all the time.
Oh, URM gang! I don't turn on the choices hints though cause they annoy me. But I use URM's textboxes 80% of the time. Most of custom ones are ugly and inconvinient.
I generally only have one main playthrough (usually corruption and depraved routes) that I am doing.
Don't you dare. Don't you dare corrupt Sunny.
when we talk about misleading
What I meant is the classic RPG case of having options:
1. Sign the document
2. Decline the offer

You choose 2nd option, expecting:
I can't agree to this deal, I am sorry. But I hope that we will have another chance to cooperate in the future.
But it turns out to be:
I can't agree to this deal, you inbred fuck. You should kys.
 
  • Like
Reactions: woody554

woody554

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2018
1,370
1,730
The 2nd line is connected with my reason to make this post. I am trying to come up with The Golden RenPy scene.
Do you like hints? What kind mostly?
I like it when a game makes me pay attention, to learn things from the world in order to solve some problem. visual cues in renders, dialogue information, objects you can find to fill in blanks.

although I'm not super excited about "collect the recipe book to craft the potion x" where the recipe object gates you from the potion. I rather like the abstract knowledge to work even before you get the object. so that it's more about gaining actual knowledge or skill rather than clicking a right thing at the right time, if that makes sense.

like in old dating sims you had to actually find out trivia about the girls and memorize or write it down, because they would test you on it during dates and that decided how happy she was in the end. as crude as it was it felt like you actually got to know them, instead of like "go on dates, on the 4th time she'll blow you" which requires zero knowledge or effort.

in artificial girl there was a nice subtle mechanic where you had to edge them just right, listening to the subtle change in their moans, and only after you saw their cheeks blush slightly were they open for multiple orgasms. it made it about skill and paying attention to the girl rather than just ramming her until clicking 'cum' like in many games.

the type of hints I like the least are the 'hint systems' so many games add to fix their bad communication and choices, where the hint flat out says "talk to x in the living room thursday morning" which just completely removes any actual play from the game. at the very least the hints should be cryptic instead of obvious, but also they should actually exist in the world itself instead of a 'hint system'. summertime saga does an okay job at that in the sense that a lot of the hints are cryptic and in world objects you must first find. (even if the event is often gated by some other event which kinda ruins it. but at least it doesn't literally tell you what to do next.)

I guess another way to look at it is I want the hints to be immersed in the game world, functional, and requiring effort to solve. and the scenes should allow you to fuck up without backtracking. so failing actually is failing. (but possibly also allow you to try again another day so you don't really lose even if you fuck up.)
 
Oct 21, 2023
237
182
like in old dating sims you had to actually find out trivia about the girls and memorize or write it down, because they would test you on it during dates and that decided how happy she was in the end. as crude as it was it felt like you actually got to know them, instead of like "go on dates, on the 4th time she'll blow you" which requires zero knowledge or effort.
I had really simillar thought, how it would be the best, if a player could actually immerse himself in the choice!

But then I realized.

It is a lie.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: woody554
Oct 21, 2023
237
182
sweet little lies is where it's all at.
Ok, but to actually reply:
Whenever I thought about a nice choices in VN I had similar thoughts to yours.
About paying attention, reading, thinking, deducting etc.
Maybe it held true for those first few VN's I played.
But then I played more and more and more. And since there is "unlimited" source of them, at least when you join this world for the first time, I got corrupted. If not for anything else - just becouse of lack of time. With 20 titles in download, I really wasn't in mood to replay whole game to check routes, or to get the "perfect" one for me.
So rollback became more and more used, then URM joined.
And I find myself today, here, thinking..

Sure, let's say that I make a game, with meaningful, mature choices that require this or that from player in order to choose.
Well, it just does not matter at all, because he is two clicks away from trying different one.
It is just not the right engine (and I'd argue - not a correct game genre) for those kind of gameplay mechanics.
(no, disabling rollback is not an option)

I never use rollback on choices during my first playthrough of any vn games, even if I made a bad choice. I feel like once you spoil the different outcomes, you preclude achieving an authentic and unique first run; due to hindsight and whatnot. To me, it feels like cheating and the overall experience gets ruined; unless you're just rushing for the spicy stuff.
I agree with that, I played few ones where that was how my playthrough went.
But it requires a lot from devs of played game. 9/10 VN's posted here are too bad to care about authentic run, because writers of the story didn't cared about it in the first place.
 
Oct 21, 2023
237
182
No matter what route you pick, the experience should never be bad.
THIS!

With exceptions, of course, especially when it comes to more adult, story driver ones. I can tolerate bad ending if it's a logical but unforseen by me outcome of my choices.

But if there was a rule of thumb - it should be one.
And soo many devs fail to see it.