Why are so many AVN protagonist so pathetic?

[anne O'nymous]

But I know for sure that women love confident men. Confidence plays a big role. Confidence that comes from competence.

Are you implying that all men that aren't confident and don't have some kind of competence are single, or are you implying that all women who married such men were desperate when they choose them and never ever loved them ?
Luckily for the human species, things do not works that way, and all kind of men are loved by some women, as well as the opposite. What doesn't mean that the MC's we this thread is talking about are well wrote, just that your claim is way too simplistic.

(luckily, simps are disliked by both audiences; actually there's reason to think that men hate simps more than women)

But does this apply to MCs ? I'm sure that among the millions players, there's some who really like them that way. I mean, there's players who feel personally offended if the girls looks at someone else than the MC, so there's surely some who don't feel at ease if the MC is the kind of guy that would steal their girl 's attention in real life.

 

[MarshmallowCasserole]

But does this apply to MCs ? I'm sure that among the millions players, there's some who really like them that way.

Some as in a number larger than zero? Sure, there can be some. Some as in a significant percent worth of pursuing as your core audience? Surely not, absolutely not to the degree these protags are prevalent in fiction we get here.

Look, we can always reference regular fiction to glean into what archetypes people like. People do not like whiny bitches, it's writing 101, and we have centuries worth of literature to back it up. Do you know anyone who likes Percy Wetmore? I don't. People like heroic, driven characters, because they want to imagine themselves like that.

The self-insert MC can come from a mundane background and that makes it easier to relate with them, but they can not retain their mundane behaviour once they pass the threshold.

I mean, there's players who feel personally offended if the girls looks at someone else than the MC, so there's surely some who don't feel at ease if the MC is the kind of guy that would steal their girl 's attention in real life.

That's a generous assumption they have a girl to steal in the first place

But no, following that logic, these people would cheer for a story where a gigachad protagonist gets cucked by a whiny loser antagonist character that perfectly resembles them. I don't see that happening.

Self-insert is positive emotion fiction. NTR is negative emotion fiction. These just don't mesh together well, just as romantic comedy doesnt go well with horror. Think of a potential male competitor in a game as a jumpscare. People do not want uninvited jumpscares in their light-hearted adventure.

 

[Insomnimaniac Games]

Self-insert is positive emotion fiction. NTR is negative emotion fiction. These just don't mesh together well, just as romantic comedy doesnt go well with horror. Think of a potential male competitor in a game as a jumpscare. People do not want uninvited jumpscares in their light-hearted adventure.

I really wish more people understood this. NTR and "Vanilla" don't mix. You'd think it would be obvious, but apparently the four guys on patreon who DM'ed me didn't get the memo.

 

[Jaike]

I really wish more people understood this. NTR and "Vanilla" don't mix. You'd think it would be obvious, but apparently the four guys on patreon who DM'ed me didn't get the memo.

I think those guys likely understand that, but they're trolls who wanted to spite your audience, wanted to ruin your game's monetisation and development, or both.

Many losers out there think schadenfreude is a kind of ersatz sadism.

But does this apply to MCs ? I'm sure that among the millions players, there's some who really like them that way. I mean, there's players who feel personally offended if the girls looks at someone else than the MC, so there's surely some who don't feel at ease if the MC is the kind of guy that would steal their girl 's attention in real life.

I doubt it. Many of the people who call for more appealing protagonists dislike NTR.

 

[Insomnimaniac Games]

I think those guys likely understand that, but they're trolls who wanted to spite your audience, wanted to ruin your game's monetisation and development, or both.

Many losers out there think schadenfreude is a kind of ersatz sadism.

The first guy was definitely a troll. The others definitely weren't. Trolls don't usually offer a couple hundred bucks. One of them even went into excruciating detail about how the genuine love and affection my two MC's have would make NTR 100 times "hotter". And I don't even have a pathetic MC.

 

[anne O'nymous]

People like heroic, driven characters, because they want to imagine themselves like that.

So, you're saying that no one would like a childish character ? A MC that would pass most of his time acting in a selfish way, deciding on impulse without having an idea of the consequences, and who would pass most of his time complaining ?
I'm asking, because this describe Frodo for ~90% of the story. Of course, he looks brave and heroic... As brave and heroic than a child that want to help put the grocery out of the car, and walk in pain, trying to carry way more than he can. The four hobbits are children metaphors. The Lord of the Rings is a story for children that tell the journey to adulthood, showing that it doesn't matters how weak and coward you are, as long as you do the right thing at the right moment ; and teaching that you'll be both the same and different at the end of that journey.

What about a MC that would be powerful, but a total childish idiot ? Isn't Anakin Skywalker a MC as liked that he's hated ?
And what about a MC that would self pity himself most of the time, and let the other bully him without rebelling ? Isn't John Snow a liked character ? Talking about Game of Thrones, I don't remember Tyron Lannister being heroic, so I guess that no one like him.
Or what about a MC that have only one thought in mind, "not being here" ? Isn't John Wick a liked MC ?
And, obviously, I can't list liked anti-hero without naming the less heroic of all MCs, yet one of the most liked one, Forrest Gump...

Driven characters, I agree, behind their, for some numerous, weakness, those characters are driven. Yet Tyron is only driven by his desire to stay alive.
But saying that they are heroic, no, they aren't. Few of their actions are possibly heroic, and like those actions are key points in the story, it's what people will remember about them, not even remembering that most of those heroic acts are in fact driven by selfishness.
But the MC don't even need to be driven. An anti-hero, that is a genre as old as stories, can perfectly exist without any motivation. Being alone like Charlot, or coupled to his antithesis, like Laurel and Hardy.

The problem with adult game MCs isn't that they are weak or stupid, but that they have no personality. It's what make them not likable, not their weakness or stupidity.
And it's really the main point. SexBot proved that a weak, clueless and bullied MC, that have no other motive than to get laid, can be liked. Precisely because at least he have a personality.

 

[woody554]

Because most “developers” don’t have the slightest idea about what kind of men attract women and how they should act to attract a woman. The only thing they can come up with is a sweet, good guy with a gigantic penis. At best, it will be a very tough, sweet guy with a giant dick. Like, a former military or some kind of secret agent.

maybe you didn't mean it, but this reads like a classic guy who has no idea what women like. somewhere around 95% of women will feel physically ill at the thought of your ex-military super agent. that's a MALE fantasy, only men are attracted to that military guy. women like guys like robbie williams, a pudgy moonfaced softie who sings about love. that muscled hard-nose hero is a gay trope. one of tom's men.

there's not a single chickflick where the male lead wasn't a caring softie who takes her feelings into consideration. women don't watch fast & furious movies.

 

[MarshmallowCasserole]

So, you're saying that no one would like a childish character ? A MC that would pass most of his time acting in a selfish way, deciding on impulse without having an idea of the consequences, and who would pass most of his time complaining ?

I'm saying that any character that doesn't grow out of this, or doesn't get comeuppance, and instead gets rewarded (in AVNs with sex), will be disliked indeed. A character can start low, but then they have to improve. It's called an arc. I am saying that the characters OP is complaing about do not have an arc, they just have sex fall into their lap. If these character were competent and actually charming from the very start to end, then their lack of arc would be more tolerable (they would be a vessel for self-insert). But because they have neither an arc nor a solid set of positive qualities, this is bad writing and it creates a bad experience for the overwhelming majority of the audience. There, I think that should be clear enough.

I'm asking, because this describe Frodo for ~90% of the story.

Absolutely not. A childish character would've bailed straight up in the beginning. Definitely after Rivendell, because for all intents and purposes Frodo's mission was over. The ring was in a safe harbor and no one would've thought less of the hobbits if they let someone else carry the burden from there. You could say Merry and Pippin stay childish for a longer time, but that's because their arc doesn't even begin until Gandalf dies. As soon as that happens, these two immediately start to get their shit together.

What about a MC that would be powerful, but a total childish idiot ? Isn't Anakin Skywalker a MC as liked that he's hated ?

I'm not sure how this does anything but confirm my point. Prequels are a meme-worthy dumpster fire of a narrative not in the least because of Anakin. I dOnT lIKe sAnD. Compare that to universally loved Luke, and you get exactly what I'm talking about. Besides, Anakin is a fall from grace story, so it's still an arc.

And what about a MC that would self pity himself most of the time, and let the other bully him without rebelling ? Isn't John Snow a liked character ? Talking about Game of Thrones, I don't remember Tyron Lannister being heroic, so I guess that no one like him.

Neither of these two are revelling in self-pity and being pathetic. Jon is a fairly straight guy with a sense of honor and duty, like most of his family. Sure, he's a bit bland, but that's okay for a start of the arc. Tyrion? Sheesh, if he was reduced just to his sharp tongue he'd still be immensely liked. People absolutely want to be as witty as he is. And Tyrion not being heroic? Black fucking water. Like, come on, did you forget or what?

If you want ASOIAF, here's a couple of characters that actually fit the mold of a whiny bitch: Viserys and Joffrey. And guess what happens to them? They die in a really gruesome way, and the audience fucking cheers. For Joffrey, contrast that with Tyrion. One is the one who slaps, the other is the one who is slapped.

The only difference betwen J and the characters we discuss is that Jeoffrey was purposefully crafted by Martin the way he is. He's not disliked because he's a whiny bitch. No, no, no, it's the other way around: he is a whiny bitch because he is meant to be disliked.

Yet Tyron is only driven by his desire to stay alive.

Then why did he slap?

This is not how people only driven by survival instinct act. You do not slap the probable future psychopath king if you want to survive and nothing else.

Come on.

One of them even went into excruciating detail about how the genuine love and affection my two MC's have would make NTR 100 times "hotter". And I don't even have a pathetic MC.

I mean, they aren't wrong. If the pleasure they get is derived from the destruction of the relationship, then the more convincing the prior portrayal of relatonship is, the better the pleasure. The bigger the sandcastle, the more fun is to blow it up. In fact, I think the trope of patheric MC is detrimental to that goal, because it diminishes the relationship.

 

[Insomnimaniac Games]

I mean, they aren't wrong. If the pleasure they get is derived from the destruction of the relationship, then the more convincing the prior portrayal of relatonship is, the better the pleasure. The bigger the sandcastle, the more fun is to blow it up. In fact, I think the trope of patheric MC is detrimental to that goal, because it diminishes the relationship.

I guess that makes sense. I don't get the appeal, though. NTR legit turns my stomach.

 

[Geigi]

Types that women like: for romance-Mr. Darcy from Pride and Prejudice and for sex-Christian Gray from 50 shades of gray. Also, which woman doesn't like F&F franchise? That's like harem of men.

 

[Dahakma]

So, you're saying that no one would like a childish character ? A MC that would pass most of his time acting in a selfish way, deciding on impulse without having an idea of the consequences, and who would pass most of his time complaining ?
I'm asking, because this describe Frodo for ~90% of the story.

Have I read the same book? Hobbits don't do many childlish things. They are heroic, acting courageously and selflessly all the time. They surpass their limits and that is why they are loved by the readers.

An anti-hero, that is a genre as old as stories, can perfectly exist without any motivation. .

Absolutely no, you can't have a good character with no motivation and that's apply double for anti-heroes. To be likable, readers either have to respect their motivation, or respect the way they are trying to achieve their goals.

The problem with adult game MCs isn't that they are weak or stupid, but that they have no personality. It's what make them not likable, not their weakness or stupidity.

But yeah, I would agree with that.

there's not a single chickflick where the male lead wasn't a caring softie who takes her feelings into consideration. women don't watch fast & furious movies.

Women want both: badass badboy who's actually a caring softie.

 

[Derpyshanks]

I guess that makes sense. I don't get the appeal, though. NTR legit turns my stomach.

The best part is that you don't need to.

Scat and Vore turns my stomach.

I definitely won't ever get the appeal for those kinks but there's an audience for those categories no doubt.

 

[Softimus Prime]

My theory: it's a bit of a holdover from harem anime, which is the inspiration for a lot of these games, particularly ones where the MC fucks several girls.

One of the reasons I despise harem anime is that the protag is always the most boring, bland, milquetoast, non-committal twerp imaginable. You have a bunch of hot girls after you! Fuck them all instead of having to pick "the one"!

Which is what's nice about these games; actually getting to fulfill that fantasy.

Western adult games/VNs tend to have protagonists who are a bit more confident, at least.

 

[anne O'nymous]

I am saying that the characters OP is complaing about do not have an arc, they just have sex fall into their lap.

No, you said that "people do not like whiny bitches, it's writing 101, and we have centuries worth of literature to back it up. Do you know anyone who likes Percy Wetmore? I don't. People like heroic, driven characters, because they want to imagine themselves like that."
It's what I answered to, and this do not address the character arc, nor does it address his evolution.

Absolutely not. A childish character would've bailed straight up in the beginning. Definitely after Rivendell, because for all intents and purposes Frodo's mission was over. The ring was in a safe harbor and no one would've thought less of the hobbits if they let someone else carry the burden from there.

Why discard the second part of the description ? "A MC that would pass most of his time acting in a selfish way, deciding on impulse without having an idea of the consequences, and who would pass most of his time complaining."

And Tyrion not being heroic? Black fucking water. Like, come on, did you forget or what?

One time, over the whole story... You missed the point, right ?
Even the most idiotic pathetic whiny character can be heroic on impulse, when he fear for his life (what isn't the case of Tyrion) by example. But it's not that act that will define him, just showing what he could have been, but decided to not be.
And if Tyrion slapped Jeoffrey, it's not because he's brave, or because he don't fear the consequences, but because he don't care about them. He accepted long ago that he'll never be recognize at his true values by those he want to be recognized by.
Even when he's finally at the place he should always have been, thanks to Daenerys being less blind, he didn't really changed his attitude. She's not among the ones he cared for, nor among the ones he now care for, precisely thanks to Black Water battle.
He's the anti-hero by excellence, the one that could but simply refuse.

 

[anne O'nymous]

[sorry for the double post]

Have I read the same book?

Have you understood what you've read ? And I'm not just talking about the books, it include my post...

Hobbits don't do many childlish things.

Don't you know what "metaphor" means ?

They are heroic, acting courageously and selflessly all the time.

Well, to answer your question, if it's what you've read, then you haven't read the book wrote by Tolkien...
Pippin and Merry weren't even outside of the Shire, that they already wanted to quit. And it's not courage that made them stay, but fear. Following Frodo meant facing the unknown, but also fleeing far from the immediate danger since they just seen the Nazgul pass, and felt the terror that surround them.
The only one who shown bravery was also the one who looked like the most coward, Fredegar Bolger. By staying, he knew (and from memory even said) that he'll be facing the Nazgul and have to lure them.

They surpass their limits and that is why they are loved by the readers.

Or is it "journey to adulthood" that you don't understood ?

Absolutely no, you can't have a good character with no motivation and that's apply double for anti-heroes.

Yet I gave two example of motivation deprived anti-heroes that where liked in their time and are still references nowadays.

 

[MarshmallowCasserole]

No, you said that "people do not like whiny bitches, it's writing 101, and we have centuries worth of literature to back it up. Do you know anyone who likes Percy Wetmore? I don't. People like heroic, driven characters, because they want to imagine themselves like that."
It's what I answered to, and this do not address the character arc, nor does it address his evolution.

If you carefully re-read the entire paragraph from most recent comment, you'll see I address this as well. People will like either a character with an arc or a character without an arc but with a solid set of positive qualities. People do not like characters that have neither an arc, nor any positive qualities. This character archetype, call them whiny bitches, is what OOP complains about, and a whiny bitch MC is simply a product of bad writing.

Why discard the second part of the description ? "A MC that would pass most of his time acting in a selfish way, deciding on impulse without having an idea of the consequences, and who would pass most of his time complaining."

I don't know what to tell you, other than you have a very... unconventional idea what selfishness looks like if you choose to describe Frodo and other hobbits as childish, predominantly selfish or complaining. I really don't, I think you're just catastrophically wrong. If this came from a blank account I would simply dismiss it as bait.

I don't think it's even possible to discuss Tyrion, who is a much more conflicted character. There is no point, we do not see eye to eye on very basic fundamentals, like what heroism and selfishness are.

 

[Gamyian]

And so, don't let us in hanging, what kind of men attract women, and how should they act to attract a woman ?

def not 2 braincells peeping toms

 

[Gamyian]

Being a good guy might not matter when you're trying just to get laid, but it absolutely does matter if you're looking for a long-term relationship. You're talking as if a good, kind guy can't also be confident.

the problem isnt being "a good guy" its the fact the these mc's have not a single ounce of self respect

 

[MagnusAxess]

Devs self-insert and add their fantasy to the mix or people just subconsciously feel like it should be because of the history or it just being a stereotype for the MCs that's easy to lean into now.

 

[ParkG]

I think it's because it's so common, to the point that it's the norm. Self-insert is stated as one of the reasons, but personally I don't think everyone is so that pathetic that they all can relate.

It's simply such a common AVN protagonist trait. People may dislike this meek personality, criticize it, but leave it at that and continue playing, because it's almost like a default character personality in NSFW games.

Characters with unique but more grounded personalities aren't always gonna be well received. Some of my experiences: I created a competitive but grounded MC for my VN, and even then it got criticized for being "exhausting". For my previous VN, someone told me the character is too shy. "Pathetic" characters get complains too, I'm sure, but they're not as vocal because it's simply very common.

So yeah that stereotypically "pathetic" and "a little oblivious" character (sometimes a clueless chick magnet) is here to stay, because its lack of personality leaves a lot of room to fill, for players to insert their thought processes and own personality into that character.