Why Step-mom or Landlady and not just mom ?

AquaGay

Newbie
Aug 9, 2018
22
15
Hey,

So i'm making my first ever games in Twine right now and while writing the plot i was asking myself, why in most games the "mom" of the MC becomes a Step-mom or a Landlady.
I assume it's because of patreon for what i have read.

But, the author of my favourite game on this site "The Good Son" removed his game from it because of other problems and use Subscribe star now.
Does this site have this kind of problem too ?

I mean, my game will for sure be shit and i dont plan to make profit off it but i'm asking for everyone.

So is there any problem, other than Patreon, that doesn't allow you to call the mc's mom... "mom" ?

Thank you
 

Alcahest

Engaged Member
Donor
Game Developer
Jul 28, 2017
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If you use SubscribeStar you won't have any problem with it, for now. Unless there is some law in your country you're breaking.
 

Hagatagar

Well-Known Member
Oct 11, 2019
1,024
3,007
Yes that landlady/step-mom stuff is mainly to circumvent Patreon's regulations.

But F95zone has no problems with incest, as long as it doesn't break Rule 7 (Which granted has nothing to do with incest :p ).

Put as much incest in your game as you want. :sneaky:
 
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megaplayboy10k

Well-Known Member
Apr 16, 2018
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It's Paypal and credit card companies which mandate that awkward dodge in response, since "real" incest in a game with entirely fictional characters who do what the dev and player want them to somehow triggers concerns about "non consensual activities". It's kinda dumb but is what it is.
 
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F4C430

Active Member
Dec 4, 2018
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Is there any reason why devs can't just let the player type in whatever they want for the relationship status? This seems like such an easy problem to circumvent.
 

Jaike

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
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It is Patreon's regulation, thanks to the moral guidance of payment processors. That's why the family-friendly wholesomeness of stepcest and landlady shagging is preferred instead.
 

F4C430

Active Member
Dec 4, 2018
649
727
It is Patreon's regulation, thanks to the moral guidance of payment processors. That's why the family-friendly wholesomeness of stepcest and landlady shagging is preferred instead.
If that's in reply to my comment (since what you said was already mentioned), it's not the dev's responsibility if the player types in "mother" instead of using the default value of "landlady." That's exactly how it's done in Dandy Boy Adventures and they are using Patreon. Let the player type in whatever they want.
 

baloneysammich

Active Member
Jun 3, 2017
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Is there any reason why devs can't just let the player type in whatever they want for the relationship status? This seems like such an easy problem to circumvent.
Some devs do. But patch files are easier for all involved IMO. Edit: In the case of renpy games, particularly those with multiple incestuous LIs.
 
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Rafster

Bear chaser
Game Developer
Mar 23, 2019
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I thought even stepdads/stepmoms are forbidden on patreon. It has changed?
 

j4yj4m

Forum Fanatic
Jun 19, 2017
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Is there any reason why devs can't just let the player type in whatever they want for the relationship status? This seems like such an easy problem to circumvent.
The main problem is that you rely on the player to get every relationship right or else his story will be really messy and even if everything is correct some dialogs often sound strange. It's a solution that's potentially workable but it's often really not the best experience for the player - especially if you've got players like me who don't really care that much about incest and tend to just skip through these choices. I've had to restart a couple of games because they were almost unplayable...

Sure, if a dev adds background code to smooth things over and to adapt dialogs properly it's fine, but technically that's already against Patreon's TOS, even though many smaller games do get away with it.

I thought even stepdads/stepmoms are forbidden on patreon. It has changed?
Not really, but it looks like devs can get away with the step-mom thing quite easily. Patreon only wouldn't allow it to unban games which had already been banned because there was real incest.
 
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mattius77

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May 16, 2017
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Remember also that Patreon is a US-based company (specifically California), as are many of the card companies/banks. The laws governing what is and what isn't legal with regard to the depiction of graphic sex acts varies from state to state (and country to country internationally), and so to simplify the deployment of a terms of service they generally conform to the most strict set of laws. Since there are jurisdictions where stepcest is illegal (it gets complicated), depictions of it are sometimes criminalized as well. So 'stepmom' doesn't work, which is where 'landlady' originated.

I'm not a Patreon user or developer, but that's an informed stab at what drove that decision to stop supporting those developers on their platform. And that's entirely within their right to do, there is not a 'right' to have your content hosted online and have a service collect money on your behalf.
 

baloneysammich

Active Member
Jun 3, 2017
994
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Sure, if a dev adds background code to smooth things over and to adapt dialogs properly it's fine, but technically that's already against Patreon's TOS, even though many smaller games do get away with it.
Not to mention the simple fact that it requires more work on the dev's part. And that's on top of the work required to implement an input system in the first place, compared to the simplicity of importing variables from a patch. Again, in the case of renpy anyway.
 

F4C430

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Dec 4, 2018
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The main problem is that you rely on the player to get every relationship right or else his story will be really messy and even if everything is correct some dialogs often sound strange. It's a solution that's potentially workable but it's often really not the best experience for the player - especially if you've got players like me who don't really care that much about incest and tend to just skip through these choices. I've had to restart a couple of games because they were almost unplayable...

Sure, if a dev adds background code to smooth things over and to adapt dialogs properly it's fine, but technically that's already against Patreon's TOS, even though many smaller games do get away with it.
I apologize for dragging this out but i still fail to see any real problem with it. All you have to do is introduce the NPC to the player when starting a new game and have a default value like "landlady," "roommate," or whatever. Then let the player change it if they want to. The fact that they see the default value of "landlady" should prevent any confusion, but the dev could also add a short description if it's needed. You could also give the player some sample sentences so that the player can preview their chosen word in context. You don't have to do this for all the NPC's. For players who don't care, they can just accept the default value.

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Obviously this might not be a good solution as a retroactive fix, it would need to be a feature that's planned before anything is written so that the writer can structure sentences and dialog to accommodate it. You don't need any special background code. You're just setting a variable and referring to it in the writing when needed. The only thing to be concerned about is capitalization. Just write your sentences accordingly and you're set. Am i missing something?

I don't use Patreon so forgive my ignorance, but do they really have a specific policy like that? It's not like they can prove it's intended to get around a ban on incest, you can just argue it's for allowing more player immersion through customization. You can't be held responsible for what a player chooses to type in. If this policy exists though, then i guess my suggestion won't work.

For the comment about this being more work for the dev, so what? That's their job. If you have a patch to import variables, you're likely halfway there already. Text input is not hard: . I don't see how creating a patch for something like this is any easier, and you're making end users jump through another hoop. As devs we should always have our end users in mind and do what's best for them when possible.
 
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j4yj4m

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Jun 19, 2017
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I apologize for dragging this out but i still fail to see any real problem with it. All you have to do is introduce the NPC to the player when starting a new game and have a default value like "landlady," "roommate," or whatever. Then let the player change it if they want to. The fact that they see the default value of "landlady" should prevent any confusion, but the dev could also add a short description if it's needed. You could also give the player some sample sentences so that the player can preview their chosen word in context. You don't have to do this for all the NPC's. For players who don't care, they can just accept the default value.
The main problem here really is the context. If you want a decent incest game there simply should be a difference in dialog, reactions, etc. between MC baging his landlady/friend or mom. To me there isn't a really good compromise to be made, one option will always "bad" and in the worst case a compromise will be made so none of them is good.

I haven't played Dandyboy adventures, but I remember playing "Light of my life" which uses exactly the same system (choice + some dialogs to check) and - even though it's a good game - the default option seemed just so horrible that I had to restart it.

Next to that, does a dev really want to release a game that's pretty badly written unless the player adds the right ingredients himself? How many players actually do that? It's important to remember that incest is just one fetish among many. Sure, if you want to write a dedicated incest game, fine, but in most cases that's not really the case, either.

I don't use Patreon so forgive my ignorance, but do they really have a specific policy like that? It's not like they can prove it's intended to get around a ban on incest, you can just argue it's for allowing more player immersion through customization. You can't be held responsible for what a player chooses to type in. If this policy exists though, then i guess my suggestion won't work.
A couple of years back they banned quite a few of the big games because of incest, like Summertime Saga, Big Brother, Dating my Daughter, etc. and back then they didn't accept any excuse to unban these games. No stepcest, no patches, no nothing. At least to DC, the dev of SummertimeSaga, they made clear that if the incest would be back in any kind or form, his account would be gone.

So it's basically just a grey zone. As long as you are small enough patreon just doesn't care to check beyond the obvious, but as soon as you put stuff in your game that's real incest or provide official patches, etc. it's technically bannable.

So yes, in the most basic case the player can type in what ever he wants, but in that case the dev can't write a really nice story, either. As soon as there's actual background code working to adapt anything further to suit whatever the player has typed in, it's technically too much.
 
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F4C430

Active Member
Dec 4, 2018
649
727
The main problem here really is the context. ...
Now i understand what you mean. Thanks for putting up with my responses, i don't play VN so there was something i was missing in this discussion.
 

NotSure142018

Newbie
Jul 5, 2020
38
21
The problem with "let the player type whatever they want" is that the game will not always use a single word and that's all you would have here. If the user input was "Mom" or "Landlady" that is the only way the game would ever refer to that character. You wouldn't have subtle differences like sometimes saying "mother", her referring to you as her son or her tenant, etc. You could have a series of related variables, and try to guess based on popular user input (if "mom" or "mama" or "mother", then ...), but now you're increasing the complexity of every interaction by an order of magnitude. It's easier to just stepcest it, and patch it back in later.
 
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Adabelitoo

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Jun 24, 2018
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The problem with "let the player type whatever they want" is that the game will not always use a single word and that's all you would have here. If the user input was "Mom" or "Landlady" that is the only way the game would ever refer to that character. You wouldn't have subtle differences like sometimes saying "mother", her referring to you as her son or her tenant, etc. You could have a series of related variables, and try to guess based on popular user input (if "mom" or "mama" or "mother", then ...), but now you're increasing the complexity of every interaction by an order of magnitude. It's easier to just stepcest it, and patch it back in later.
Not really. I don't want to get into details because it'll be hard for me to do it in English, but you can make the "Input your relationship" work as a simple True/False where changing the relationship into a specific word like "Mom" sets it to True and that would overwrite a lot of words, giving you as many words (Mom, mom, Mother, mother, Mommy, mommy, My mom, my mom, My mother, my mother, etc) as you need.
 

NotSure142018

Newbie
Jul 5, 2020
38
21
Right, but presumably the problem with Patreon is that the incest is coded into the game at all. Having it something you can enable with a single click or toggle does not get around that problem (the way that handwaving it away as "it is just user input" does). What you're suggesting is just a cheat code, basically, that if the user types in the correct secret name it rewrites the game into an incest option. This does not seem like it would meet Patreon's TOS, particularly if the keyword is something easy and obvious.
 
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j4yj4m

Forum Fanatic
Jun 19, 2017
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It doesn't even really matter if it's well hidden or not. Once the game has a large enough following, there'd be enough haters anyway who'd tell patreon what's wrong in detail.

Then again, for the average dev this really doesn't matter as much. For patreon it seems to be enough if there's no official incest and if the incest isn't advertised on the patreon page, while they kinda ignore everything else. At least I'm not aware of them closing down somebody because there's some kind of patch or so... that's of course only until they may decide otherwise, given that they threatened to do just that in the past.