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bluetack_man

Member
Nov 25, 2016
103
936
I'm going to make a small observation here, and not a jab at anyone in particular. But I find it interesting and concerning how this thread turned into a circle-jerk of vitriol, almost like y'all have absolutely nothing better to do all day. As though there aren't other VN's out there. I'm as disappointed as the next guy for how this situation has turned out. But, there are other titles to distract from all this 'dramaqueen' inducing negativity. This place feels like it's trying to compete with 4chan. it's even more pathetic when actual site moderators pile on as well. that's like the opposite of 'professionalism' for a site mod. Not inspiring to say the least.

I'm not trying to defend anything BD has done in the past. But is it really worth this much time and attention? I understand the passed 3 yrs have been stressful for everyone, but I just do not/cannot see how all this will bring anything positive out of it. How would any creator/dev would/could ever want or desire to complete anything under these conditions?

Sorry if anyone felt like I was taking shots at them, I'm not. I'm just sitting on the outside looking in. And it's a pretty pathetic sight.
You're not wrong.

But lots of the people posting here are either a) former Patreon subscribers who have been scammed out of dozens/hundreds of $ over months, and are therefore disillusioned, grumpy and frustrated; or b) current/former subscribers who have been unfairly banned from BD's official communication channels (Patreon/Discord) for giving critism, so they post here and are more "passionate" with their critism instead.
 
Sep 16, 2021
187
877
I'm going to make a small observation here, and not a jab at anyone in particular. But I find it interesting and concerning how this thread turned into a circle-jerk of vitriol, almost like y'all have absolutely nothing better to do all day. As though there aren't other VN's out there. I'm as disappointed as the next guy for how this situation has turned out. But, there are other titles to distract from all this 'dramaqueen' inducing negativity. This place feels like it's trying to compete with 4chan. it's even more pathetic when actual site moderators pile on as well. that's like the opposite of 'professionalism' for a site mod. Not inspiring to say the least.

I'm not trying to defend anything BD has done in the past. But is it really worth this much time and attention? I understand the passed 3 yrs have been stressful for everyone, but I just do not/cannot see how all this will bring anything positive out of it. How would any creator/dev would/could ever want or desire to complete anything under these conditions?

Sorry if anyone felt like I was taking shots at them, I'm not. I'm just sitting on the outside looking in. And it's a pretty pathetic sight.
In a way, you’re not wrong. Some may have nothing else to do with their day. But it is their free time, and basking in the BD fall from grace is quite enjoyable.
That being said, BD has brought this upon himself and he 110% deserves it
 

funkymonkeyjedi

Well-Known Member
Jan 16, 2023
1,814
3,301
Personally I'm taking this as a lesson to be learned with my own personal project. I'm not even going to bother making an uploader/creator account until I have my entire project completed. Downside to that is, this is just going to make my timeline unpredictable, 'cause I was (still am) a bit discouraged when I discovered how much money it'll cost me in the long run in DAZ assets and licensing. But so be it if it'll avoid any headaches such as these.
 

Renfield42069

Member
Nov 21, 2022
127
319
Personally I'm taking this as a lesson to be learned with my own personal project. I'm not even going to bother making an uploader/creator account until I have my entire project completed. Downside to that is, this is just going to make my timeline unpredictable, 'cause I was (still am) a bit discouraged when I discovered how much money it'll cost me in the long run in DAZ assets and licensing. But so be it if it'll avoid any headaches such as these.
A lot of people take a long time between updates and don't catch heat for it. Or not much, anyway. What those people typically don't do is string people along with repeated, obviously made up, dog-ate-my-homework style stories after setting "firm" deadlines. It's less about the infrequency and more about how they're going about it; though the extremely long delays are a contributing factor. People are making jokes but they're being quite tame, in all honesty.

All that said.... You kink shaming circlejerks, bruh!? :KappaPride:
 
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polycentric

Member
Donor
Mar 26, 2019
468
1,783
I'm going to make a small observation here, and not a jab at anyone in particular. But I find it interesting and concerning how this thread turned into a circle-jerk of vitriol, almost like y'all have absolutely nothing better to do all day. As though there aren't other VN's out there. I'm as disappointed as the next guy for how this situation has turned out. But, there are other titles to distract from all this 'dramaqueen' inducing negativity. This place feels like it's trying to compete with 4chan. it's even more pathetic when actual site moderators pile on as well. that's like the opposite of 'professionalism' for a site mod. Not inspiring to say the least.

I'm not trying to defend anything BD has done in the past. But is it really worth this much time and attention? I understand the passed 3 yrs have been stressful for everyone, but I just do not/cannot see how all this will bring anything positive out of it. How would any creator/dev would/could ever want or desire to complete anything under these conditions?

Sorry if anyone felt like I was taking shots at them, I'm not. I'm just sitting on the outside looking in. And it's a pretty pathetic sight.
99% of the time I would say that you were correct and I have suggested in the past that we all just forget about BrainDrop, WVM and do something more important such as cleaning out the refrigerator.

This situation, though, is the exception to the rule because:
- BD actively solicited patronization at an early stage and made numerous promises to attract that patronage
- BD has made, and continues to make, some of the most preposterous excuses that I've ever heard, the kind of stuff that would get you fired from a job or a contract five times over
- The BD simp cult Patreons actively push back on people trying to obtain some kind of value for their patronage, making it harder to affect change on his behavior
- BD has flinched at the suggestion that he should stop collecting patronage for WVM because "he needs the money"
- Because so many people join F95zone, come to this thread and refuse to read the history, the people that had an emotional attachment to the game read a steady stream of comments from underinformed people about something that they were supporting since 'day one', keeping it fresh in their minds

I supported BD early on and stopped when he, and WVM, started going off the rails and I have zero emotional investment in WVM. My personal gripe is the knock-on effect this is having on actual 'hobby games' where the developer has not turned a project into a full time business but is facing increasing harassment by people whose opinion is stained by people such as ICSTOR and BD.

I don't see this stopping until most people think he's either completely come clean about the last two years, or somehow catches up, and neither of those are liable to happen so I don't see this just fizzling out any time soon - and probably shouldn't.
 

OmegaLord

Member
Jul 30, 2022
133
317
OK, sorry if some people have pointed this out already but I have to laugh at some of the crazy things in that braindrop.
1) He is saying sorry to those who don't fuck with him anymore... in a post only people who do still fuck with him can see...
2) Starting April 3rd we will start getting weekly updates if the plan holds, yet the braindrops will be giving us update info on how many renders or % complete? Am I just missing something or is that a complete waste as up to now BD has kept update posts and braindrops as two different things.

Also want to point out how he is cool with letting people down unless that is just some horrible wording on his part, he says he knows it's on him but his wording does not take ownership of it.
 

funkymonkeyjedi

Well-Known Member
Jan 16, 2023
1,814
3,301
A lot of people take a long time between updates and don't catch heat for it. Or not much, anyway. What those people typically don't do is string people along with repeated, obviously made up, dog-at-my-homework style stories after setting "firm" deadlines. It's less about the infrequency and more about how they're going about it; though the extremely long delays are a contributing factor. People are making jokes but they're being quite tame, in all honesty.
I hear ya, and to some extent I can also say I can agree to it.

All that said.... You kink shaming circlejerks, bruh!? :KappaPride:
And yeh, how would you react if you wouldn't be invited to the party? :ROFLMAO:
 

FatGiant

Forum Fanatic
Jan 7, 2022
5,034
16,083
Personally I'm taking this as a lesson to be learned with my own personal project. I'm not even going to bother making an uploader/creator account until I have my entire project completed. Downside to that is, this is just going to make my timeline unpredictable, 'cause I was (still am) a bit discouraged when I discovered how much money it'll cost me in the long run in DAZ assets and licensing. But so be it if it'll avoid any headaches such as these.
I think you are learning the wrong lesson here.

The lesson to learn is: Communicate. Be truthful. If you make a promise, don't break it, but better NOT make promises.

People will forgive, a few times. Each time it will cost you in reputation. Until, like Braindrop, you have NONE. He could be telling me the time on my wrist watch, I would still look myself.

That's the lesson you should be learning, don't be a BrainDrop. This mess didn't start like this. He was one of the most loved Dev's here. He was the example people pointed at as what to be. Then all that went to his head, he started to fail each and every promise, then came the fake heart to hearts with lies upon lies. Each time he squandered the good will he'd accrued.

People are mad at him. With reason. I understand that you are new here and that this looks excessive. Go back a few thousand posts, see how different the environment was here.

Peace :)
 

funkymonkeyjedi

Well-Known Member
Jan 16, 2023
1,814
3,301
99% of the time I would say that you were correct and I have suggested in the past that we all just forget about BrainDrop, WVM and do something more important such as cleaning out the refrigerator.

This situation, though, is the exception to the rule because:
- BD actively solicited patronization at an early stage and made numerous promises to attract that patronage
- BD has made, and continues to make, some of the most preposterous excuses that I've ever heard, the kind of stuff that would get you fired from a job or a contract five times over
- The BD simp cult Patreons actively push back on people trying to obtain some kind of value for their patronage, making it harder to affect change on his behavior
- BD has flinched at the suggestion that he should stop collecting patronage for WVM because "he needs the money"
- Because so many people join F95zone, come to this thread and refuse to read the history, the people that had an emotional attachment to the game read a steady stream of comments from underinformed people about something that they were supporting since 'day one', keeping it fresh in their minds

I supported BD early on and stopped when he, and WVM, started going off the rails and I have zero emotional investment in WVM. My personal gripe is the knock-on effect this is having on actual 'hobby games' where the developer has not turned a project into a full time business but is facing increasing harassment by people whose opinion is stained by people such as ICSTOR and BD.

I don't see this stopping until most people think he's either completely come clean about the last two years, or somehow catches up, and neither of those are liable to happen so I don't see this just fizzling out any time soon - and probably shouldn't.
I hear ya, loud and clear.
And I can respect your take on it as I'll admit to being one of them nubs who isn't fully aware of the entire situation. Although I have been reading alot of the back-story in this thread (I'm not on patreon so there was no way to really check that out(well I am, but fuck patreon)), which is what motivated me to post my initial concerns a few posts back. And I wasn't planing on throwing myself in the cross-hairs for it either. But after finding all this out, I'll just reiterate my very first post when I came here a couple days ago, which was, hoping for but not holding my breath for an update, and just move on. Because being a nub to this thread, I don't have any justification to jumping onto the bandwagon of hate. There's enough of that going around outside of the internet anyhow (thx for that MSM).
 

OmegaLord

Member
Jul 30, 2022
133
317
Personally I'm taking this as a lesson to be learned with my own personal project. I'm not even going to bother making an uploader/creator account until I have my entire project completed. Downside to that is, this is just going to make my timeline unpredictable, 'cause I was (still am) a bit discouraged when I discovered how much money it'll cost me in the long run in DAZ assets and licensing. But so be it if it'll avoid any headaches such as these.
Ok forgive me if I'm wrong but it sounds like your not planning on showing off your game until it's fully released. If your making a short game I do think that might just be a very sound choice.
However if your intending to make a much longer game that could turn out to be quite a poor choice, if your new it can be quite helpful to get feedback early in development so avoid unintended issues. So long as your prepared for the bad with the good.
As an example "A Home in the Desert" had some stuff poorly implemented when it released, the community pointed it out and the Dev has a chance to change those kinds of things now before it became too common an issue or reworking a lot later on.

It also does not need to be done with money from the start (Old guy who grew up with demo's being for almost every game) but after you have found your groove you can transition into a pay model of some kind.

I do also recommend before even releasing a demo you have the main plot points of the story and characters mapped out and what happens roughly, the detailed part can be worked on as it goes but if your not sure where your going it can create a mess.
 
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funkymonkeyjedi

Well-Known Member
Jan 16, 2023
1,814
3,301
I think you are learning the wrong lesson here.

The lesson to learn is: Communicate. Be truthful. If you make a promise, don't break it, but better NOT make promises.

People will forgive, a few times. Each time it will cost you in reputation. Until, like Braindrop, you have NONE. He could be telling me the time on my wrist watch, I would still look myself.

That's the lesson you should be learning, don't be a BrainDrop. This mess didn't start like this. He was one of the most loved Dev's here. He was the example people pointed at as what to be. Then all that went to his head, he started to fail each and every promise, then came the fake heart to hearts with lies upon lies. Each time he squandered the good will he'd accrued.

People are mad at him. With reason. I understand that you are new here and that this looks excessive. Go back a few thousand posts, see how different the environment was here.

Peace :)
I wish I could go by that, but I'm doing mine solo. I'm not planing on asking for help with it at all (no backing, no funding). I will not accept anyone dictating what or how I should publish my ideas/story in anyway shape or form. So I think I'll just keep it invisible until I have a complete product to offer, this way I don't have to feel the pressure to stick to a fixed schedule. Or having to explain anything to anyone. Stress free will keep me focused.
 

polycentric

Member
Donor
Mar 26, 2019
468
1,783
one of them nubs who isn't fully aware of the entire situation
My comment wasn't directed at you; I think (for whatever that's worth) your post was utterly reasonable. I think what pisses a lot of people off is when someone parachutes into this thread and then makes a "ijustplayedthisyesterdayandtheitsthebestgameeverwhenstheupdate" - it might not make perfect sense, but it feels like a poke in the eye to a lot of people.
 
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Noid42

Member
May 19, 2018
101
640
And seeing what's going on in here is somewhat scary for a new-comer to the table considering how personal some of my own story aspects are, as I'm basing %90 of the central story on personal experiences. Which is why I won't accept anyone fiddling with how I wish to present it all. Maybe that's a mistake I don't know. Last thing I want to do is end up biting off more than I can chew.
I wouldn't take this thread as an example.
There are always a few 'update when??????? give update!!!' people, it is what it is.
This is not the case here, the complaints aren't about BD's dev work, but the lies, the way he keeps presenting the situation, keeps manipulating people with different claims ('this is a hobby' when people say the expect results, 'this is how I provide for my family' when he's explaining why he didn't pause pledges), and the promises (usually right before payment day) he keeps giving to keep the money coming without ever delivering on them.

Now, mind you, it's been a rocky 2 years for WVM, BD used to pause pledges, he used to be very communicative and honest about things, so even when things didn't work great people kept supporting, or at least replied with 'oh well, hope things work out'. everyone who supported a few Patreon projects know there's delays, it's expected and understandable, and as someone who supported a bunch, and followed countless others I can honestly say I've never seen it being this bad (although I never supported ICSTOR), but what I'm trying to say is - it only gets really bad if you lie to people while taking their money for years, not because you're struggling with some tech in the development process.
 
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Jan 14, 2023
375
592
Personally I'm taking this as a lesson to be learned with my own personal project. I'm not even going to bother making an uploader/creator account until I have my entire project completed. Downside to that is, this is just going to make my timeline unpredictable, 'cause I was (still am) a bit discouraged when I discovered how much money it'll cost me in the long run in DAZ assets and licensing. But so be it if it'll avoid any headaches such as these.
I think the largest lesson to learn is that:

a) Your customers are not your friends (they are like the Greek Fates, fickle and cruel when spurned), b) Discord is a tool, not a social platform if you're a Developer: use it for PR / communication soley about the game and leave it at that and c) Patreon is not your friend given it is structured to minimise feedback that shows the actual fail-rate / percentage of failed projects it actually hosts. Patreon isn't even kick-starter (in that KS at least cancels projects that fail their target goals).

Many (many) of these projects fail because a Developer falls into the Discord rabbit-hole and wastes time, energy and psychological well-being that are better spent coding / writing / planning out roadmaps. Lesson #1 - Discord is a company with an identical model as Twitter or Facebook where they use a whole raft of dark patterns[1] to maximise engagement. This includes you, the Discord creator.

Top tips:

1) Don't overly front-load a project: yes you want a splash and yes you want to get hype / momentum, but don't blow all your load at once. This is a classic where a title launches with 3+ gb of renders, huge cast, massive promises and then runs into production issues. Make a roadmap: know what your next three release targets are and do them religiously. Three month updates are sensible and allow for RL to interfere without ruining deadlines (monthly is suicide: professional studios don't do monthly apart from internal crunch... and that's kept internal for a reason). This is called "runway": if you have 3+ gb, release 2, hit the next deadline with your remaining 1 and the breathing space / lack of pressure will probably mean you can produce an extra 1gb to bolster it. Always have runway (and not imaginary 2500 renders that do not exist a year later) and be realistic: even a short narrative arc / render set is better than panicking and throwing out a minor cast render / sex scene to placate your customers: hit roadmap targets, not filler spank. (You'll take a hit in the short run; in the long run your game gets completed).

Lack of content + Time pressure + solo psychological development = death spiral waiting to happen

2) Focus on the game rather than the PR / Discord / Patreon numbers. Make it clear to customers (and to yourself) if you consider this a hobby (which will get you more leeway on updates but lower interest levels) or if this is semi-professional.

If it is a hobby, then treat it like one and have fun. Ignore feedback and just create and see what happens.

If you have an absolute $$$ goal make it clear to yourself and make it realistic. Don't say "If I don't get $1000 / month by month two I am ditching"; do say: "My target is $250, $500 and then $1000, but I can accept $200, $400, $800 for three months after this deadline, then I will have to reconsider". Then stick to it.

3) Social media is poison, especially Discord which is real-time interaction. Treat it as a required necessity and never use it for anything but hitting a roadmap target. Yes, each update should have patch notes / a lead-in time, but only do this once you have wrapped up the actual update.

You get the idea. Good luck with your project.



[1] The best source on this is probably:
 
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funkymonkeyjedi

Well-Known Member
Jan 16, 2023
1,814
3,301
My comment wasn't directed at you; I think (for whatever that's worth) your post was utterly reasonable. I think what pisses a lot of people off is when someone parachutes into this thread and then makes a "ijustplayedthisyesterdayandtheitsthebestgameeverwhenstheupdate" - it might not make perfect sense, but it feels like a poke in the eye to a lot of people.
lmao
To be fair, when I posted my first post here that's kinda what I was coming here to do :ROFLMAO:
But thankfully, I've learned to read before shoving a foot in my mouth only to then be offered ketchup to finish off the other foot. It's the tone that was being used that began painting the picture quite vividly. So I felt something had to be mentioned. But I've learned where my place is and I'll happily take a seat and mind my 'beezwax'. :)
 
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Individual

Member
Oct 4, 2022
159
945
I'm going to make a small observation here, and not a jab at anyone in particular. But I find it interesting and concerning how this thread turned into a circle-jerk of vitriol, almost like y'all have absolutely nothing better to do all day. As though there aren't other VN's out there. I'm as disappointed as the next guy for how this situation has turned out. But, there are other titles to distract from all this 'dramaqueen' inducing negativity. This place feels like it's trying to compete with 4chan. it's even more pathetic when actual site moderators pile on as well. that's like the opposite of 'professionalism' for a site mod. Not inspiring to say the least.

I'm not trying to defend anything BD has done in the past. But is it really worth this much time and attention? I understand the passed 3 yrs have been stressful for everyone, but I just do not/cannot see how all this will bring anything positive out of it. How would any creator/dev would/could ever want or desire to complete anything under these conditions?

Sorry if anyone felt like I was taking shots at them, I'm not. I'm just sitting on the outside looking in. And it's a pretty pathetic sight.
At least we're complaining about something, you're just complaining about us complaining about something. You're like a parasite who leeches off other parasites.

The game isn't being released, so we talk about it not being released and the excuses the developer makes. Use your own logic and ignore it if you don't want to give it any attention. Seems kind of hypocritical to give your attention to something you don't want to bring attention to. (I'm guilty of this too, I admit.)

At the end of the day, this is a website where people upload porn games. Nobody on this site has any right to judge anyone so maybe you should get off your pedestal.
 

funkymonkeyjedi

Well-Known Member
Jan 16, 2023
1,814
3,301
At least we're complaining about something, you're just complaining about us complaining about something. You're like a parasite who leeches off other parasites.

The game isn't being released, so we talk about it not being released and the excuses the developer makes. Use your own logic and ignore it if you don't want to give it any attention. Seems kind of hypocritical to give your attention to something you don't want to bring attention to. (I'm guilty of this too, I admit.)

At the end of the day, this is a website where people upload porn games. Nobody on this site has any right to judge anyone so maybe you should get off your pedestal.
I understand, and you're right.
Harsh, but I respect what you're saying. I'll accept the splash of cold water.
 

Wolfen5

Member
Mar 4, 2019
197
854
I'm going to make a small observation here, and not a jab at anyone in particular. But I find it interesting and concerning how this thread turned into a circle-jerk of vitriol, almost like y'all have absolutely nothing better to do all day. As though there aren't other VN's out there.
The universe has to balance itself somehow. The simping, hugfest echo chamber that's his Discord tipped it too far off course. We've just re-calibrating it back a bit. :Kappa:
 
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