- Thread starter HighbornTiger
- Start date
I'm probably in the uber-minority, but the scene with Tracy in the shower was the first time I felt uncomfortable in this game. Like the others, she is a character who comes from a long history of trauma where she had no agency or choice despite her abilities, but even amongst them she is clearly more timid than most. So MC being super-pushy and just doing things & telling her 'you'll like it' was VERY off-putting. Not the least bit erotic (to me), and seemed like a tonal 180° compared to everything before that scene. I hope this story is not trending away from treating the LIs with respect. Just my opinion in a sea of useless opinions, but it felt like such a big change in tone that it warranted feedback.
- Aug 16, 2020
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You're not alone here as I mostly agree with your opinion. This particular scene felt kind of too pushy in retrospective to most other scenes so far. Maybe not a complete tonal 180° turn but nontheless a step out of line.
Tracy may often appear to be not exactly comfortable and timid, but I did not feel any real comfort or pleasure coming from her being pushed into more than some innocent showering with the MC. But maybe that's Tracy as well: being too embarrassed to show that she generally likes a more dominant and pushy approach?! Don't know, but that scene felt off a bit indeed.
That said, I don't assume HighbornTiger is trending their MC to be disrespectful or even corruptive in regard of all the LIs.
Because treating them contrary to the way they were used to and showing them ways to be self-determined still seems to be one major topic here. And for me, one slightly disturbing scene does not change that.
Tracy may often appear to be not exactly comfortable and timid, but I did not feel any real comfort or pleasure coming from her being pushed into more than some innocent showering with the MC. But maybe that's Tracy as well: being too embarrassed to show that she generally likes a more dominant and pushy approach?! Don't know, but that scene felt off a bit indeed.
That said, I don't assume HighbornTiger is trending their MC to be disrespectful or even corruptive in regard of all the LIs.
Because treating them contrary to the way they were used to and showing them ways to be self-determined still seems to be one major topic here. And for me, one slightly disturbing scene does not change that.
Derpyshanks
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- Jul 14, 2021
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I rejected sleeping with the wife but next episode goes on as if I chose to sleep with her? Error or is this story becoming pure kenetic going forward.
Well, I'm not quitting the game over one uncomfortable scene. I'll definitely give HT the benefit of the doubt at least once because the story up until now has been so good. But while saying it was a tonal "180°" was obviously a bit of exaggeration-for-effect (AFAIK Ethan Krautz has NOT taken over the game
), the scene still made me uncomfortable enough to mention it because I am hoping not to feel that uncomfortable again in the next update. "Once is an accident..." but if it becomes a trend then it would drive me away.I've seen too many games take sudden turns because one or a few loud patrons with very non-mainstream fetishes pushed devs to make changes that ruined those games for just about everybody else, and I don't want to see that happen here. In case there are patrons pushing for harsher content, I just wanted to wave my hand and say "Hey there, don't forget about all the rest of us who aren't whispering (or screaming) in your ear to change things to suit their preferences!"
Yes Tracy is very meek, but the reasons for that have been very well-established or at least hinted at without too many unpleasant specifics, so whether or not she wants or needs the kind of aggressive pushing MC employed in that scence is (to me) completely irrelevant until that conversation is had openly to establish both consent and some way like a 'safe-word' so she can stop the MC if he goes farther than she is comfortable with, because clearly we know she probably would be too afraid to speak up and say "No" in those situations because of her past trauma. I have no problem with dominance-submission relationships, but those are only non-abusive when conversations and consent have been established in advance and boundaries have been agreed upon.
KINGK13PRO
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Majindevil
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- Nov 20, 2018
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i was puzzled about that too.. choose not to sleep with her but in a flashback the group heard them all standing in the corridor blushing. i played with urm and there were no scene indicator that this scene was behind som choice. so it could just be an error/oversight but so far it seems from the interactions that the wife indeed will be forced (what is a shame when everything esle seems choice dependet)
It's an error/oversight. Will be fixed with the next update
Thanks. I skipped through the scene, and I can see how people can read it as MC coercing Tracy into having sex. I'm still thinking about it, so this might change, but I don't believe I got this scene wrong.
Tracy asked him directly if they could shower together, and they kissed beforehand. So not only from what she said, but from the kiss the tone is set that this is going to be sexual.
Touching her face and pulling her close should still be fine. The issue starts to arise when MC says things like, 'Trust me, you are going to like it,' and things don't get better when he has to stop to remind her to relax. Here I think we have a different read on what is going on the scene. In my eyes, Tracy is nervous and feels pressure to perform. She is tense and can't relax but she also has strong feelings towards MC, which MC knows because either he already had sex with her, or she basically came to him heartbroken because she thought MC didn't respond to her feelings.
And yeah, I've also written all the rest of this story, so you know I'm a sucker for consensual sex. I should also mention that I haven't had a single person reach out to me to put something in the game. Not even pregnancy, they just ask if it's planned.
Now, there is one scenario that I think you wouldn't like, but which could happen at some point. The MC always stresses that he's not that good of a person. I could see him having sex with one of the girls while in a bad mood, where all he wants is to get off himself and not pay much attention to the other side. That's about as bad as it gets in this avn. And if it comes to that, it would become a plot point, and the MC would be reprimanded for acting like a jerk. That's also partly why I don't think I need to change or address the shower scene with Tracy. Because she is pretty happy with how it went.
Maybe if many people get the same impression of that scene, I'll write some lines where Mc apologizes for pressuring her in that situation. Still, her response most certainly will be to say that it was absolutely alright, that she was totally fine with how things went and that she was glad he took charge in that situation and gave her the push.
moskyx
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- Jun 17, 2019
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I think it would be fine if you give all players the option to stop and wait for the evening at home. 'Sensitive' players would feel more comfortable with how it plays out, and if Tracy truly wanted to have sex on the showers she will get another lesson on how she needs to be more assertive around the MC.
**Pre-emptive mea culpa: this is a long Reply with lots of separate spoiler replies to spoilered quotes, so my apologies if I effed anything up. In my defense, I am a moron.
MC/narrator clearly admits her words were resistant (by definition they had to be if her body not resisting is a contrast), so he is ignoring her verbally resisting. And "accepting her fate" sounds more like an assault victim going limp and not resisting so that she won't get beaten for fighting back than anything resembling actual consent.
MC assumed she asked to shower together because she was thinking about sex, but then clearly realizes that was not the case. It was here that I thought he would back off or at least ask whether she wanted sex and was very surprised that he did not. He realizes his assumption was wrong and NOT what she had intended...but still pushes forward without hesitation. He then (ironically) praises her innocence and hopes she never changes...and yet what follows sure feels a bit like he himself is taking away some of that same innocence...
It read to me the first time like (a) she was being reprimanded for not even pretending to enjoy what he was doing, and then (b) he pretty much tells her to 'just lay back and enjoy it,' knowing that given her backstory she almost literally can't resist or say no at this stage of her story (I modified the last screenshot to show exactly the subtext that the MC should be painfully aware is there. So I just think that even if it was not written with that intent...it may be read differently than intended by some players (especially clinically insane loonies like me).
If a partner is not capable - for any reason - of freely voicing discomfort and/or doubts about going further, it is 100% incumbent upon the other party to behave accordingly. In this case, MC should absolutely stop and verify that she is comfortable moving forward first, rather than just pushing forward because he is horny. There is very obviously a built-in power imbalance in any relationship with a female character from a world where males have unquestioned power over females, and the partner with more power in the dynamic (MC) is completely responsible for behaving appropriately. Any time they don't - even with a partner they have had previous consensual sex with - they are without fail guilty of abusing that imbalance for their own gratification (which is a literal sex crime in many places).
And I'm glad to hear there is no outside pressure to turn things darker. I mean, obv that would be your prerogative and always will be, it just wouldn't be my cup of tea.
I'm not a delicate petal - my favorite author is Stephen Donaldson, who goes out of his way to have all of his main characters do horrible things early on in his books to make it painfully clear they are not 'heroes' but complex protagonists who will forever be seeking redemption for their past transgressions. So I like complexity and character depth, and some darkness is fine as long as it seems consistent or explainable. I think this scene was problematic for me because it was totally out of the blue (obviously because it wasn't intended that way). It may simply boil down to something as simple as word choice, where changing a few words here or there or adding a few for context might make it read as intended to everyone.
I never meant that I thought you got it "wrong" per se - it's your game, after all, so it's completely your business how you write your story. I just wanted to point out how that scene came across to me - intentionally or unintentionally. Going through it again after reading your reply it didn't feel quite as exploitative, knowing it hadn't been written that way on purpose. But when I played it the first time not knowing your intent, it definitely felt a bit 'icky,' for lack of a better word.
MC/narrator clearly admits her words were resistant (by definition they had to be if her body not resisting is a contrast), so he is ignoring her verbally resisting. And "accepting her fate" sounds more like an assault victim going limp and not resisting so that she won't get beaten for fighting back than anything resembling actual consent.
I do disagree with you there based on your own subsequent dialogue:
MC assumed she asked to shower together because she was thinking about sex, but then clearly realizes that was not the case. It was here that I thought he would back off or at least ask whether she wanted sex and was very surprised that he did not. He realizes his assumption was wrong and NOT what she had intended...but still pushes forward without hesitation. He then (ironically) praises her innocence and hopes she never changes...and yet what follows sure feels a bit like he himself is taking away some of that same innocence...
And that's all fair. But don't forget, as the writer you know what's in her mind but unspoken; as players we do not, and having her find a way to communicate (to the player as well as the MC) what she is thinking - non-verbally if she actually can't say it out loud - would go a long way to making that sequence less uncomfortable (IMHO). But TBH, (again IMHO) with players not knowing Tracy's internal thoughts these later pieces of dialogue sound like they came right out of the pedophile/rapist handbook:
It read to me the first time like (a) she was being reprimanded for not even pretending to enjoy what he was doing, and then (b) he pretty much tells her to 'just lay back and enjoy it,' knowing that given her backstory she almost literally can't resist or say no at this stage of her story (I modified the last screenshot to show exactly the subtext that the MC should be painfully aware is there. So I just think that even if it was not written with that intent...it may be read differently than intended by some players (especially clinically insane loonies like me
).If a partner is not capable - for any reason - of freely voicing discomfort and/or doubts about going further, it is 100% incumbent upon the other party to behave accordingly. In this case, MC should absolutely stop and verify that she is comfortable moving forward first, rather than just pushing forward because he is horny. There is very obviously a built-in power imbalance in any relationship with a female character from a world where males have unquestioned power over females, and the partner with more power in the dynamic (MC) is completely responsible for behaving appropriately. Any time they don't - even with a partner they have had previous consensual sex with - they are without fail guilty of abusing that imbalance for their own gratification (which is a literal sex crime in many places).
And that's why I'm still here and looking forward to the next update - you DO have a track record, so as I said in a later post I'm not going anywhere yet.
And I'm glad to hear there is no outside pressure to turn things darker. I mean, obv that would be your prerogative and always will be, it just wouldn't be my cup of tea.Well, whether I would like it or not is not super relevant, since I am just a drop in the ocean of individual opinions. But I hope it would be with an LI that he at least subconsciously knows could handle it and NOT one of the more fragile ones... If that's the case & he is called out for it (or even better realizes what he did on his own pretty quickly and apologizes without being made to) then it wouldn't be as bad. But yeah, if he is rough with one of the fragile ones I would certainly not enjoy that at all, even with an apology after-the-fact. Being angry is one thing, but they are not strangers at this point, so there would be no excuse for at least not directing that anger away from the more vulnerable characters.
I'm not a delicate petal - my favorite author is Stephen Donaldson, who goes out of his way to have all of his main characters do horrible things early on in his books to make it painfully clear they are not 'heroes' but complex protagonists who will forever be seeking redemption for their past transgressions. So I like complexity and character depth, and some darkness is fine as long as it seems consistent or explainable. I think this scene was problematic for me because it was totally out of the blue (obviously because it wasn't intended that way). It may simply boil down to something as simple as word choice, where changing a few words here or there or adding a few for context might make it read as intended to everyone.
I don't think that is necessary since that wasn't the intent. But I would say that I can't be sure as a player whether she was indeed fine with it or glad that he took charge. I think you know that because you write her character and know what she's thinking inside her head and if she means exactly what she says when she says something. As players we don't know those things, so if something is textually ambiguous than different players will read it different ways. Since she (and the others) have been presented to us players as abused and oppressed for their entire lives until this one week, it is really hard for us players to make those assumptions because we are not inside her head alongside you.
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Ramagar
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- Nov 19, 2017
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The one who does the mod has not been on here since 31 March. So who knows when it will be updated.
Talmadge
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- May 7, 2018
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Ripson doesn't stay on here constantly. But he knows when games are updated and he will update his mod when he, 1} has the time, and 2} after getting the notification. I do believe someone has already said it. But I will as well. Ripson, the game has been updated to 6.5. We await your update, if it is needed. Thanks!
- Jun 21, 2020
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- Jun 21, 2020
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Reniere
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- Aug 5, 2019
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Maybe its me but during the sex scenes the faces the characters make ( Women ) all look uninterested and dislike the act.
Always makes me feel like im doing or watching something wrong. i enjoy the game but those scenes always feel like something is wrong.
They dont have faces that enjoy it but faces of either being forced or enduring it since its something they are forced to do.
Maybe its just me tho
Always makes me feel like im doing or watching something wrong. i enjoy the game but those scenes always feel like something is wrong.
They dont have faces that enjoy it but faces of either being forced or enduring it since its something they are forced to do.
Maybe its just me tho
Well you forget they come from a world/alternate earth where men rule and women are just harem cattle. Often those men where not kind with them, so far only the old man seems to been kind to them, but still 1 man with 600 women, who on top had no say on mutual relationship as it their father who gift them to other men. They never learned love, most positive emotions are foreign for them, probably even during sex they were not allowed by the men to show they liked it. Something that been going for centuries is hard to change in a blink of an eye.
I must say, for a dramatic history and contact with new alternate earth, it is amazing told, love how they struggle to adapt and have confusions about our earth while their earth was so much different. It show well how hard it is for a culture to adapt to a new culture, somethings often many people don't understand. I must say you are a great writer and understand such adaptions can be not easy solved, same with how our people are, we always learned that something more powerfull then us they either a god or we want to steal their powers and put them into labs as rats. That is exact how humans on our earth would react to any kind of alien and why I still believe humans are not ready to explore space. I'm already excited to see next chapters as it is a really well told story and even people don't understand somethings, i clearly understand them all and the MC is really well written and kind and doesn't feel forcefull at all, amazingly he is one of the rare humans that would be a beacon between what strange and new and our cultures.