RPGM A Struggle with Sin [v0.6.1.1b] [Chyos]

[zARRR]

Yes, yes I did. I got to the dead end with Tia, but couldn't figure out who to talk with about her. I'd already talked to Rick about her, and I got no sense he'd know anything, nor any reason to think his dialogue would change now. The older members of the community didn't have any dialogue options for her, which are who I assumed would be the people likely to have more info on her past.

I assume getting Tia to go with you also is how you're intended to push the tree over to get into the bandit camp, but I couldn't get to join, so I just brute forced it.

But to progress you need to talk with Rick, after reaching the dead end, ask Rick about her, he reveals the stuff, then return to talk to Tia

 

[Hedonax]

But to progress you need to talk with Rick, after reaching the dead end, ask Rick about her, he reveals the stuff, then return to talk to Tia

Yes, I understood that from your prior comment.

My problem is that makes no sense whatsoever. I'd have had to hit "brute force every possible interaction" to discover that, unless, maybe, I had already progressed Tia to that point before ever talking to Rick about the girls.

 

[zARRR]

Yes, I understood that from your prior comment.

My problem is that makes no sense whatsoever. I'd have had to hit "brute force every possible interaction" to discover that, unless, maybe, I had already progressed Tia to that point before ever talking to Rick about the girls.

It doesn’t make sense for you, no one for now thought that Tia’s recruitment was unreasonable, the grinding argument is more understandable but this? Nah.
In the dialogue with Tia you choose what is the least delicate argument at beginning with, then slowly build up, then you go do an investigation into understanding what’s happening.
And from Rick you gain informations from all different women, the game expects you to experiment, wander around, it gives you some hints (3 or 2 are more cryptic than others) but for the rest you have to use your logic of the surroundings and informations.

 

[Solak]

I honestly have to agree that the Rick part was very obscure. I myself completely forgot I had to do that in my last playthrough and was left confused as to how to proceed. Honestly think Chyos should add a quick mental thought like "maybe Rick has heard something about her past". As of right now, sure the players should experiment, but I had already talked to Rick about all the girls. Nothing came out of it. Why would I go back and talk to him again after an arbitrary point during Tia's quest?

For the tree trunk though, both are possible options. You're not forced to have Tia to save Emily and that's good. It helps to have her but she's ultimately not essential there.

 

[Hedonax]

It doesn’t make sense for you, no one for now thought that Tia’s recruitment was unreasonable, the grinding argument is more understandable but this? Nah.
In the dialogue with Tia you choose what is the least delicate argument at beginning with, then slowly build up, then you go do an investigation into understanding what’s happening.
And from Rick you gain informations from all different women, the game expects you to experiment, wander around, it gives you some hints (3 or 2 are more cryptic than others) but for the rest you have to use your logic of the surroundings and informations.

Yeah, except the info Rick gives is completely irrelevant blather, so the game has provided no reason to expect he's a source of useful information, nor does it make sense that he'd have special knowledge of Tia's backstory.

I honestly have to agree that the Rick part was very obscure. I myself completely forgot I had to do that in my last playthrough and was left confused as to how to proceed. Honestly think Chyos should add a quick mental thought like "maybe Rick has heard something about her past". As of right now, sure the players should experiment, but I had already talked to Rick about all the girls. Nothing came out of it. Why would I go back and talk to him again after an arbitrary point during Tia's quest?

For the tree trunk though, both are possible options. You're not forced to have Tia to save Emily and that's good. It helps to have her but she's ultimately not essential there.

Honestly, even this bothered me, but from a more metagamey angle. I would prefer to have had Tia join me just from personal preference, but also, I didn't get Emily captured, because I could take out the bandits the first few times they showed up, and I just stopped sleeping at Emily's after a while when they got harder (due to bs level scaling), because I knew that was going to trigger whenever I did, and it was annoying to fight them even when it wasn't going to kill me. The metagamey issue, is I wondered if there were benefits to letting Emily get captured, whether in sex scenes, or in improving your relationship with her. Especially since I hit 10, and she stopped progressing by any means available to me.

 

[Ottoeight]

It is what it is. Things have to happen in order to see the single stories/quests move forward. Let them happen and if you don't know what you're supposed to make happen Mr SpongeWalkthrough will tell you.

 

[zARRR]

Yeah, except the info Rick gives is completely irrelevant blather, so the game has provided no reason to expect he's a source of useful information, nor does it make sense that he'd have special knowledge of Tia's backstory.



Honestly, even this bothered me, but from a more metagamey angle. I would prefer to have had Tia join me just from personal preference, but also, I didn't get Emily captured, because I could take out the bandits the first few times they showed up, and I just stopped sleeping at Emily's after a while when they got harder (due to bs level scaling), because I knew that was going to trigger whenever I did, and it was annoying to fight them even when it wasn't going to kill me. The metagamey issue, is I wondered if there were benefits to letting Emily get captured, whether in sex scenes, or in improving your relationship with her. Especially since I hit 10, and she stopped progressing by any means available to me.

Whaddya mean he gives information, sure from an unreliable source but at the same time gives some knowledge that is shared like Tia background.

Yeah Emily’s quest was also pointed out, it’s in the list pf rework things in that mentioned update

 

[Solak]

Honestly, even this bothered me, but from a more metagamey angle. I would prefer to have had Tia join me just from personal preference, but also, I didn't get Emily captured, because I could take out the bandits the first few times they showed up, and I just stopped sleeping at Emily's after a while when they got harder (due to bs level scaling), because I knew that was going to trigger whenever I did, and it was annoying to fight them even when it wasn't going to kill me.

Okay, that one is on you. A certain event keeps happening, the exact same one, the exact same way, again and again and again and again. Yet you keep choosing the exact same options, leading to the same outcome. Instead of trying out the other options to get a different outcome, you persist in doing the same thing over and over again, then complain that things don't progress.

Insert definition of insanity.

All you need to do at that point is not rush them the moment they break into the house and instead wait for a "better opportunity". That's it. Emily will wake up to check up the noise, be captured and voila.

 

[Hedonax]

Okay, that one is on you. A certain event keeps happening, the exact same one, the exact same way, again and again and again and again. Yet you keep choosing the exact same options, leading to the same outcome. Instead of trying out the other options to get a different outcome, you persist in doing the same thing over and over again, then complain that things don't progress.

Insert definition of insanity.

All you need to do at that point is not rush them the moment they break into the house and instead wait for a "better opportunity". That's it. Emily will wake up to check up the noise, be captured and voila.

Mate, I made the choice I wanted to, that wasn't even what I was complaining about, and I clearly know what the outcome is of not going after the bandits, as otherwise my comments expressing a specific knowledge of the outcome of that choice would make zero sense.

If you don't understand what someone is saying, don't twist it into an excuse to insult them.

 

[Solak]

Mate, I made the choice I wanted to, that wasn't even what I was complaining about, and I clearly know what the outcome is of not going after the bandits, as otherwise my comments expressing a specific knowledge of the outcome of that choice would make zero sense.

If you don't understand what someone is saying, don't twist it into an excuse to insult them.

" I didn't get Emily captured, because I could take out the bandits the first few times they showed up, and I just stopped sleeping at Emily's after a while when they got harder "

You literally said Emily didn't get captured and that you even stopped triggering the event. Meaning you locked yourself out of the event. Then you complained that you couldn't progress with her and started wondering whether that event might be related.

If to you, that is metagamey, then every game will be. Having to randomly talk to your friend is one thing, not testing out different options of a new event that pops up the moment you're prevented from advancing to the next step is another. Worse, you're complaining that you hit 10 and couldn't progress anymore, so you used metagame to complain about metagame. Talk all you like, you were simply frustrated at having lost time defeating the bandits over and over again in what felt like a very tedious, repetitive event... then realising that you had simply failed to consider that maybe trying out a different option was the key to progressing to the next step.

Obviously, that made you feel dumb, which is why you accused me of insulting you. I hadn't insulted you. The definition of insanity was more of a meme. What happened is you felt so dumb back then that you immediately jumped to the conclusion that this was what I was implying and ran with it. All I did was point out and explain why that particular criticism of yours was invalid. If you choose to take that as an insult to your intelligence, be my guest. But your words, not mine.

Oh and I do know that you made it past it, that much was obvious, thank you. But if you struggled, maybe others did too. That last part was for them, not you. But now, I'm done if you are going to immediately jump on the defensive that way. I'm tired of having to walk on eggshells with people who can't tolerate having their flaws or mistakes pointed out to them. We need that to grow and improve. Acknowledge your weaknesses so you can work on them and become ever greater.

 

[Yotetar]

Daaamn and it is only 4 of January.
Solak is right, it is simple, to continue emily story you need to let her be captured, save her, and let her be captured again one more time. After that you can progress on the bandit quest too.
Chill.

 

[Solak]

Daaamn and it is only 4 of January.
Solak is right, it is simple, to continue emily story you need to let her be captured, save her, and let her be captured again one more time. After that you can progress on the bandit quest too.
Chill.

Oh he did continue the story. He knows what to do now. His complaint wasn't phrased properly, but it was that you need to behave in a certain way to actually progress it. Wanna be the hero of the house and attack the intruders? Nope, you need to let them scour the house for a bit until Emily gets captured.

I can understand that criticism in a way. However, the "flaw" is in the medium. Emily should have logically bolted out of her room immediately, thinking it's MC. That would've "solved" everything. However, Chyos wanted to give the player the opportunity to prevent the capture from happening if they had other plans. Arbitrarily forcing the player's hand in a sandbox game to focus on a certain quest is generally a bad idea. With this choice, if the player just wanted to sleep for the night before continuing... I dunno, Tia's story... they can. "Oh, don't capture Emily tonight please, thank you."

 

[Evangelion-01]

Yes, I understood that from your prior comment.

My problem is that makes no sense whatsoever. I'd have had to hit "brute force every possible interaction" to discover that, unless, maybe, I had already progressed Tia to that point before ever talking to Rick about the girls.

If you talk to her about her family she'll be avoiding your question and MC thinks to himself he should talk to Rick since he knows the People of Arenfield since his birth and might be able to provide informations

 

[Hedonax]

If you talk to her about her family she'll be avoiding your question and MC thinks to himself he should talk to Rick since he knows the People of Arenfield since his birth and might be able to provide informations

I don't recall this. I recall the MC thinking he needs to find someone who might know more, but I don't recall any specific mention of Rick.

 

[Evangelion-01]

I don't recall this. I recall the MC thinking he needs to find someone who might know more, but I don't recall any specific mention of Rick.

Rick is providing you with informations about Characters, has a choice for Tia, is your drinking buddy and was born in Arenfield while MC only moved there in his early childhod (5-6 I'd assume since he has memories of that time).
The game is meant to only give you hints not tell you step by step what to do... that's what the Walkthrough or Wiki are for

 

[Hedonax]

Rick is providing you with informations about Characters, has a choice for Tia, is your drinking buddy and was born in Arenfield while MC only moved there in his early childhod (5-6 I'd assume since he has memories of that time).
The game is meant to only give you hints not tell you step by step what to do... that's what the Walkthrough or Wiki are for

I've already been over this, but I guess I have to repeat myself.

1. You almost certainly already talked to him about Tia by that point, and he had nothing useful to say except he doesn't like her, which suggests against him having any useful info.
2. If you're trying to argue Rick would have more knowledge about her history, when he would have been all of a few years old at any time you weren't also in Arenfield is genuinely absurd. As I said, it makes far more sense to go to someone older in the community who would have already been a teenager or adult when Tia showed up.
3. Going to Rick for this makes zero sense. The only thing constituting a hint is that he is the only character who will have had a Tia specific dialogue option, but as he doesn't make sense as a source of this info and you likely already did that dialogue option, it's not a very good one... and hints that rely not on in-narrative reasoning but metagame are bad design anyway.

 

[zARRR]

I've already been over this, but I guess I have to repeat myself.

1. You almost certainly already talked to him about Tia by that point, and he had nothing useful to say except he doesn't like her, which suggests against him having any useful info.
2. If you're trying to argue Rick would have more knowledge about her history, when he would have been all of a few years old at any time you weren't also in Arenfield is genuinely absurd. As I said, it makes far more sense to go to someone older in the community who would have already been a teenager or adult when Tia showed up.
3. Going to Rick for this makes zero sense. The only thing constituting a hint is that he is the only character who will have had a Tia specific dialogue option, but as he doesn't make sense as a source of this info and you likely already did that dialogue option, it's not a very good one... and hints that rely not on in-narrative reasoning but metagame are bad design anyway.

I am going to deal with point 3 especially, since going over Rick it makes sense c’mon!
He is your best friend (allegedly), he spends every night in tavern he must know a lot of rumors!
And in a city full of strangers and abusive jerks who do you think MC goes to seek help?
John just smiths all day, Roderick has its own problems, Corven is an outsider, Emily seems clueless about most people except the ones that are connected to her, Thomas and Lucius care only about business and Giron is Giron.
Rick has been there more than you, and you trust him, and you go there asking for a specific question, Tia’s family not an opinion on her persona.

And even MC himself seems to be oblivious to most things happening, this can have a reason narratively (MC didn’t interact that much with others) and both gameplay wise, since the game wants you to discover the thing by yourself

Another thing to put aside that bugs the hell out of me is that metagame hints are bad designs…
The hell are you saying?
From to the old games from NES and PS1 (Like Zelda, MGS, Mario) to new indie games (Undertale, Lisa and even fucking DDQL) metagame hints were used continuously!
From Instructions manuals that were considered organic to the play, to meta hints like the ambience and objects that didn’t work before finding an item like in all metroidvanias and usage of walkthroughs the metagame hint elements were never considered bad design to begin with.

 

[Evangelion-01]

1. You almost certainly already talked to him about Tia by that point, and he had nothing useful to say except he doesn't like her, which suggests against him having any useful info.

So you never encountered a situation when dialogues change based on story progression?
gues you are a bit to early in the game than.

2. If you're trying to argue Rick would have more knowledge about her history, when he would have been all of a few years old at any time you weren't also in Arenfield is genuinely absurd. As I said, it makes far more sense to go to someone older in the community who would have already been a teenager or adult when Tia showed up.

People talk and kids are curious, obviously the elders must have told the kids a reason why Tia is different and why they should keep their distance or at least be careful around her.

3. Going to Rick for this makes zero sense. The only thing constituting a hint is that he is the only character who will have had a Tia specific dialogue option, but as he doesn't make sense as a source of this info and you likely already did that dialogue option, it's not a very good one... and hints that rely not on in-narrative reasoning but metagame are bad design anyway.

Failing to follow the devs logic (which seems to be a personal issue since most guys got it on the first try) is not meta game or bad design.
I see this is an personal issue to you but really makeing any more obvious hints would make this a VN with combat elements... you are supposed to walk around and explore the changeing world.

 

[Yotetar]

I can understand that criticism in a way. However, the "flaw" is in the medium. Emily should have logically bolted out of her room immediately, thinking it's MC. That would've "solved" everything. However, Chyos wanted to give the player the opportunity to prevent the capture from happening if they had other plans. Arbitrarily forcing the player's hand in a sandbox game to focus on a certain quest is generally a bad idea. With this choice, if the player just wanted to sleep for the night before continuing... I dunno, Tia's story... they can. "Oh, don't capture Emily tonight please, thank you."

That could work at first baby steps of the game, where you have basically, nothing to do,so it could be hard to earn money or to save her, but we are not at that stage, so it should be changed, or give another path where you can progress story without rescuing her( even if I would not like it).

 

[Evangelion-01]

That could work at first baby steps of the game, where you have basically, nothing to do,so it could be hard to earn money or to save her, but we are not at that stage, so it should be changed, or give another path where you can progress story without rescuing her( even if I would not like it).

I think Chyos made a pretty good point in the rescue being necessary, as that is the turning point of him and Emilys relationship.
Changeing that trigger moment can hardly be achieved with a simple change in the lines and seems unecesary complicated if you ask me.