VN Ren'Py A Wife and Mother [P2 v0.225 + P1 v0.152] [Lust & Passion]

[Old Dog]

All things I knew but wanted someone else to confirm.

So the question remains, how come the created scenes % very rarely moves up together with rendered scenes if both jobs can be done at the same time?

That question I cannot answer,only the dev can

 

[Sabertooth__]

I did use the words "fantasy" and "speculation". I don't recall using "reality". It's just my opinion. And as we all know, when it comes to opinions (being like a$$holes) - everyone's got one!

And I am not rebuking your opinion. I just spoke on the chances of this fantasy or speculation being a reality in the game. I too would like to see a new dynamic in the story.

 

[Bane71]

He has the merit of writing a little word of explanation, however there are so many fallacious arguments

- false dilemma : quality and immersive scenes VS shit
- authority arguement : it's my game, I don't have to listen to the remarks
- slippery slope argument : if I want to go faster then I have to ask for help, then I will have to give up part of the project so I will no longer be in control and you will have poor quality (ex : the word 'stranger' rather than 'partner')
- circular reasoning
- etc.
If I arrive with these explanations in front of my boss (or that I hear one of my subordinates tell me that) , it doesn't work out.

However, I think he should not give an estimate of the number of renderings he will do, because we can clearly see the controversy that this causes on this feed, and probably among his patreons. Not even the proportions, because he may feel he has to change the importance of an event and we will fall on him if that is not quite what he said.

I tend to agree with him, if he thinks he needs to add a little* more for the story to hold together better. Are we not on this forum, discussing the smallest little sentences that could be a clue to the continuation of the adventure.
* if it's 30-40% more, that's because he really missed his initial estimate, I don't know if he's a draftsman, but he should make a storyboard, even a simple one to avoid this kind of disappointment.

I note that he has been working non-stop since January, 7/7 8-10h a day, so he has no other activity. Why it doesn't make any difference between when he was taking lessons and when he is almost 100% on the project ? it is not very clear to me.

He has the honesty to admit that he has a certain obsession with constantly wanting to increase the quality of these renderings. He declares that he has reduced the number of renderings as much as possible for the next update, I can't contradict him on that until we have seen the contents of the release. I hope there won't be several almost similar shots, with just a few degrees of camera angle as a difference.

I think there will be good content, but the wait will have been painful, many people felt disillusioned. I hope he will find a way to save time in order to bring the release dates closer without giving us some more than questionable arguments.

For the rest, good job & good luck.

I understand you and agree with you in many ways, but not literally. I think L&P should emphasize that AWAM is primarily a visual novel!
A game is just a way to tell a story, to reveal it in a more multifaceted way.
It is only in this context that the need for deep penetration into the details and nuances of the plot becomes clear. It is clear that this requires a certain amount of text, dialogues, characters' thoughts and, in addition, visualizations.

If we, including myself, perceive AWAM purely as a game, then it is quite natural for everyone to personally see different unnecessary details, both in the text and in the visualizations.

Therefore, I think it would be appropriate for L&P to place accents so that everyone is clear and understandable what its purpose is. Then everyone understands his motives and actions, and I am sure that fewer users will have thoughts about milking!
And if you focus on the novel, and not on the game, then it becomes more appropriate to release updates more often in the amount of 500 - 700 renders as they are ready, without reference to all other plots of the game.
Thus, we will receive updates every 2 - 3 months, which will not be so tiresome.

 

[GingerSweetGirl]

I understand you and agree with you in many ways, but not literally. I think L&P should emphasize that AWAM is primarily a visual novel!
A game is just a way to tell a story, to reveal it in a more multifaceted way.
It is only in this context that the need for deep penetration into the details and nuances of the plot becomes clear. It is clear that this requires a certain amount of text, dialogues, characters' thoughts and, in addition, visualizations.

If we, including myself, perceive AWAM purely as a game, then it is quite natural for everyone to personally see different unnecessary details, both in the text and in the visualizations.

Therefore, I think it would be appropriate for L&P to place accents so that everyone is clear and understandable what its purpose is. Then everyone understands his motives and actions, and I am sure that fewer users will have thoughts about milking!
And if you focus on the novel, and not on the game, then it becomes more appropriate to release updates more often in the amount of 500 - 700 renders as they are ready, without reference to all other plots of the game.
Thus, we will receive updates every 2 - 3 months, which will not be so tiresome.

I don't agree with this at all.

Game or Visual Novel, neither changes the fact that this product is meandering. Whether this was a game with gameplay elements, or a non-linear visual novel, it doesn't change that there are fundamental structural issues here that prevent the product from being released on a consistent basis.

 

[Dr.SigmundFap]

I understand you and agree with you in many ways, but not literally. I think L&P should emphasize that AWAM is primarily a visual novel!

A game is just a way to tell a story, to reveal it in a more multifaceted way.
It is only in this context that the need for deep penetration into the details and nuances of the plot becomes clear. It is clear that this requires a certain amount of text, dialogues, characters' thoughts and, in addition, visualizations.

He does state that his game is a Visual Novel. You can find this text on his main page. Unless you want him to omit the word "game" from his text?

For a certain amount of text, dialogues, characters' thoughts, and visualizations. L&P stated that the story is written already.



The problem here is that he keeps adding or changing things which, in turn, adds more to his workload. So he's not sticking to his script. I understand sometimes you may have to change things up, but it seems that with every update, we have a change in something with the story. It's almost as he has an Outline for the story, and L&P needs to assemble it.

If we, including myself, perceive AWAM purely as a game, then it is quite natural for everyone to personally see different unnecessary details, both in the text and in the visualizations.

Therefore, I think it would be appropriate for L&P to place accents so that everyone is clear and understandable of what its purpose is. Everyone understands his motives and actions, and I am sure that fewer users will have thoughts about milking!

And if you focus on the novel and not on the game, it becomes more appropriate to release updates more often in the amount of 500 - 700 renders as they are ready, without reference to all other novel or game plots.
Thus, we will receive updates every 2 - 3 months, which will not be so tiresome.

The problem with this statement is he had a plan to release updates quicker. The updates were supposed to be split from Full to Half to One-Third Gamedays. The problem is the change to the script that was already written by L&P. Now, L&P did state that the Major Update Event would take longer. Still, this update wasn't supposed to be a major update, but L&P turned it into a major event, which tells me he added more to the script. If the script is written already, L&P should tell his members when a Major Event is planned, giving his members the expectation that this is a long production event. It's like he's planning on the fly and doesn't have a structure for tackling events in sequential order. Basically, L&P is unorganized. He's shooting from the hip right now. And he admits this in the statement.

 

[GingerSweetGirl]

Basically, L&P is unorganized. He's shooting from the hip right now. And he admits this in the statement.

EXACTLY! It's why his defensive response rings hollow, he's deliberately missing the point that the problem is with his organization. Instead of addressing his disorganization, he's trying to sell people on the idea that everything is going according to plan and that the game has no flaws. He at no point is addressing the structural/fundamental elements of the criticism.

 

[Bane71]

I don't agree with this at all.

Game or Visual Novel, neither changes the fact that this product is meandering. Whether this was a game with gameplay elements, or a non-linear visual novel, it doesn't change that there are fundamental structural issues here that prevent the product from being released on a consistent basis.

Everyone has the right to their personal opinion, that's okay!
This is not the point at all.
The question is, our opinion is a very subjective thing! To be objective enough, you and I need to have much more information about how L&P does its job, about its plans, technical capabilities, etc. not to mention information related to creativity.
Naturally, we have some information, but you must admit it is not enough for a deep, objective assessment. Not to mention the fact that not everyone who evaluates the work of L&P is qualified enough.

And then, what are the evaluation criteria?
It must be admitted that the main criterion for evaluating the work of L&P today is the release of updates. ))
But you must admit that this is fundamentally wrong and only based on our expectations.

I think it can be quite objective if we estimate the number of ready-made renderers per day and the amount of text per working day.

When the update is published, we can check these indicators and evaluate its work.

And all the talk that the game contains unnecessary renders, unnecessary arcs and unnecessary descriptions, these are all empty and inconsistent estimates.

 

[Bane71]

View attachment 1148668

He does state that his game is a Visual Novel. You can find this text on his main page. Unless you want him to omit the word "game" from his text?

For a certain amount of text, dialogues, characters' thoughts, and visualizations. L&P stated that the story is written already.

View attachment 1148679

The problem here is that he keeps adding or changing things which, in turn, adds more to his workload. So he's not sticking to his script. I understand sometimes you may have to change things up, but it seems that with every update, we have a change in something with the story. It's almost as he has an Outline for the story, and L&P needs to assemble it.



The problem with this statement is he had a plan to release updates quicker. The updates were supposed to be split from Full to Half to One-Third Gamedays. The problem is the change to the script that was already written by L&P. Now, L&P did state that the Major Update Event would take longer. Still, this update wasn't supposed to be a major update, but L&P turned it into a major event, which tells me he added more to the script. If the script is written already, L&P should tell his members when a Major Event is planned, giving his members the expectation that this is a long production event. It's like he's planning on the fly and doesn't have a structure for tackling events in sequential order. Basically, L&P is unorganized. He's shooting from the hip right now. And he admits this in the statement.

View attachment 1148702

It is for these considerations that you express that I am talking about the need to highlight accents. And it is not you and me who should do this, but L&P. Because you and I and other users have different interpretations. We can argue endlessly, only L&P can put an end to the dispute.

 

[Bane71]

EXACTLY! It's why his defensive response rings hollow, he's deliberately missing the point that the problem is with his organization. Instead of addressing his disorganization, he's trying to sell people on the idea that everything is going according to plan and that the game has no flaws. He at no point is addressing the structural/fundamental elements of the criticism.

For you personally, his defensive reaction sounds meaningless! And for him, for a person who works seven days a week, who creates such a voluminous project, his excuses are just some insignificant element because a person's life is not only his work!

 

[GingerSweetGirl]

Bane71 You are misusing the terms "subjective" and "objective", probably a language barrier thing.

Here's an example of a subjective opinion:

"Dylan sucks because he's not brave enough to ask Sophia for what he wants." This is an opinion that cannot be measured in any way. It's neither right or wrong, it's subjective.

Here's an example of an objective opinion:

"L&P is badly managing this game because he is failing to meet his stated goals despite having the technology required."

It isn't about complaining about "redundant renders" or "walking back and forth", those are symptoms of a the bigger problem. We don't need to know the details of L&P's creative process, all we need to know is what he has told us about his plans. Based upon what he has told us, we can objectively measure how close he is to achieving his goals. Objectively, based upon the goal of improving development time by decreasing the releases to 1/3 of a day, L&P is failing. Objectively, based on what he told us before development began, L&P has failed to follow his own plan for this update.

A subjective opinion would be that L&P is milking his patrons. An objective opinion is that he's failing to meet his stated goals. The reasons for that failure do not matter, it is objectively true that he's failing to meet them. Maybe you think the reasons for that failure excuse it, that is a subjective opinion. But we should all agree that despite the move to 1/3 day updates and improved hardware, we have not received the planned for improvement to development times. That's the objective fact.

 

[Alley_Cat]

Bane71 You are misusing the terms "subjective" and "objective", probably a language barrier thing.

Here's an example of a subjective opinion:

"Dylan sucks because he's not brave enough to ask Sophia for what he wants." This is an opinion that cannot be measured in any way. It's neither right or wrong, it's subjective.

Here's an example of an objective opinion:

"L&P is badly managing this game because he is failing to meet his stated goals despite having the technology required."

It isn't about complaining about "redundant renders" or "walking back and forth", those are symptoms of a the bigger problem. We don't need to know the details of L&P's creative process, all we need to know is what he has told us about his plans. Based upon what he has told us, we can objectively measure how close he is to achieving his goals. Objectively, based upon the goal of improving development time by decreasing the releases to 1/3 of a day, L&P is failing. Objectively, based on what he told us before development began, L&P has failed to follow his own plan for this update.

A subjective opinion would be that L&P is milking his patrons. An objective opinion is that he's failing to meet his stated goals. The reasons for that failure do not matter, it is objectively true that he's failing to meet them. Maybe you think the reasons for that failure excuse it, that is a subjective opinion. But we should all agree that despite the move to 1/3 day updates and improved hardware, we have not received the planned for improvement to development times. That's the objective fact.

I thought the whole point of going from 1/2 to 1/3 days wasn't so much to improve development time, but release time, since people were getting impatient with the long development times.

Even upgrading his graphics cards wasn't to improve development time, but to enable updates in 1080p, in accordance with his financing goals.

But I'll need clarification on that. Can't seem to find it in my bookmarks.

 

[Bane71]

Bane71 You are misusing the terms "subjective" and "objective", probably a language barrier thing.

Here's an example of a subjective opinion:

"Dylan sucks because he's not brave enough to ask Sophia for what he wants." This is an opinion that cannot be measured in any way. It's neither right or wrong, it's subjective.

Here's an example of an objective opinion:

"L&P is badly managing this game because he is failing to meet his stated goals despite having the technology required."

It isn't about complaining about "redundant renders" or "walking back and forth", those are symptoms of a the bigger problem. We don't need to know the details of L&P's creative process, all we need to know is what he has told us about his plans. Based upon what he has told us, we can objectively measure how close he is to achieving his goals. Objectively, based upon the goal of improving development time by decreasing the releases to 1/3 of a day, L&P is failing. Objectively, based on what he told us before development began, L&P has failed to follow his own plan for this update.

A subjective opinion would be that L&P is milking his patrons. An objective opinion is that he's failing to meet his stated goals. The reasons for that failure do not matter, it is objectively true that he's failing to meet them. Maybe you think the reasons for that failure excuse it, that is a subjective opinion. But we should all agree that despite the move to 1/3 day updates and improved hardware, we have not received the planned for improvement to development times. That's the objective fact.

Believe me, I understand you perfectly, but nevertheless I cannot agree with you.

I think everyone should understand that writing a novel and, on its basis, creating a computer game combines two important processes, namely the creative process and technical elements.
It is absolutely and completely natural that these processes are interdependent and can influence changes in the original design and plan.
When I say this, I am not trying to justify L&P, it is not at all that it is being criticized! The fact is that many people have a very narrow view of the tasks facing the creator of AWAM!

But again, I do not impose my point of view on anyone, I only express it.

 

[GingerSweetGirl]

I thought the whole point of going from 1/2 to 1/3 days wasn't so much to improve development time, but release time, since people were getting impatient with the long development times.

Even upgrading his graphics cards wasn't to improve development time, but to enable updates in 1080p, in accordance with his financing goals.

But I'll need clarification on that. Can't seem to find it in my bookmarks.

I'm using development time and release time interchangeably since one influences the other.

As for the graphics cards, I was certain it was suppose to make rendering faster. But if it wasn't, the objective fact hasn't changed that RELEASE TIME hasn't improved.

 

[Bane71]

I thought the whole point of going from 1/2 to 1/3 days wasn't so much to improve development time, but release time, since people were getting impatient with the long development times.

Even upgrading his graphics cards wasn't to improve development time, but to enable updates in 1080p, in accordance with his financing goals.

But I'll need clarification on that. Can't seem to find it in my bookmarks.

You are absolutely right!
And I suggest that L&P go even further and issue updates when 500 - 700 renders are ready, regardless of the plot. And of course this will not speed up creation, but will only shorten the time between updates.

 

[GingerSweetGirl]

You are absolutely right!
And I suggest that L&P go even further and issue updates when 500 - 700 renders are ready, regardless of the plot. And of course this will not speed up creation, but will only shorten the time between updates.

It's an idea worth exploring. But whatever the number of renders, the most important thing will be that L&P sticks to some sort of plan. He gets into trouble when the scope of the update changes.

 

[Alley_Cat]

You are absolutely right!
And I suggest that L&P go even further and issue updates when 500 - 700 renders are ready, regardless of the plot. And of course this will not speed up creation, but will only shorten the time between updates.

Fairly sure he stated somewhere he floated that option too, that he could release updates after "big" events. But what constitutes a "big" event seems to be completely arbitrary, much like what gingersweetgirl is saying. The events of this update were meant to be small, but L&P has evidently changed his mind.

That said, this is still information that I've picked up along the way, and don't have immediate quotes for, so can be taken with as many grains as salt as one wants. But if a patron has a quote one way or another, I'd be much obliged.

 

[GingerSweetGirl]

Fairly sure he stated somewhere he floated that option too, that he could release updates after "big" events. But what constitutes a "big" event seems to be completely arbitrary, much like what gingersweetgirl is saying. The events of this update were meant to be small, but L&P has evidently changed his mind.

That said, this is still information that I've picked up along the way, and don't have immediate quotes for, so can be taken with as many grains as salt as one wants. But if a patron has a quote one way or another, I'd be much obliged.

It was an idea that was floated, but I think it was unofficially rejected in favor of the 1/3 day releases.

 

[Bane71]

Fairly sure he stated somewhere he floated that option too, that he could release updates after "big" events. But what constitutes a "big" event seems to be completely arbitrary, much like what gingersweetgirl is saying. The events of this update were meant to be small, but L&P has evidently changed his mind.

That said, this is still information that I've picked up along the way, and don't have immediate quotes for, so can be taken with as many grains as salt as one wants. But if a patron has a quote one way or another, I'd be much obliged.

L&P is worried that the small update will not include all arcs of the game and there will be those who will not receive the continuation of their favorite storyline in the update.

I suppose that this is not so problematic, because due to the long wait, most of us go through all possible arcs, even those that we don't like.
In my opinion, the update may well contain even one event, if it is large enough and contains from 500 to 700 renders. Also, it can be updates with 2 or 3 events of the game day, the main reference point, in my opinion, should be the number of renders.

This is the only way to ensure that updates come out more often today.
This will surely remove the annoyance of users and the pressure on L&P, and will allow him to calmly look for ways to fill the updates with content, whether it is the help of some specialists or something else.

 

[GingerSweetGirl]

The worry I have though is that such a structure will give L&P more license to overly elongate scenes. The guy clearly has a hard time reeling himself in, so he would need to be disciplined. Otherwise I can see him committing 400 renders to something like the nursing home event WITHOUT a corresponding increase in the amount of story progression. Again, I think the idea is worth exploring, but whether it's this idea, or 1/3 day updates, it's all dependent on L&P being disciplined and sticking to a plan.

 

[Bane71]

The worry I have though is that such a structure will give L&P more license to overly elongate scenes. The guy clearly has a hard time reeling himself in, so he would need to be disciplined. Otherwise I can see him committing 400 renders to something like the nursing home event WITHOUT a corresponding increase in the amount of story progression. Again, I think the idea is worth exploring, but whether it's this idea, or 1/3 day updates, it's all dependent on L&P being disciplined and sticking to a plan.

))) yes, such a danger exists hypothetically! But that's only if we assume that the L&P is completely inadequate.