VN Ren'Py A Wife and Mother [v0.195] [Lust & Passion]

[tomeczek32100]

Next update?

 

[Fantabaldu]

 

[farrah]

Except that that's patently false, because of the terrible game design where the lesbian content with Ellie and Patricia is gated behind being forced to get Filthy points and make non-lesbian based choices with men all the time. To get max points with either of them and even get a good degree of their content, you have to basically get involved with a good majority of the male content directly, either to have the Filthy point requirements or needing to trigger certain events just so latter ones happen. Because almost everything involving them isn't even determined by Lesbian points, it's almost all related to Filthy points, and the largest source of them is male-based encounters.

Well, this is not a terrible design. Just some do not understand how this storylines moves and just want lesbian content, not realizing that Sophia Ellie and Patricia are not lesbians. And men in the plot are necessary at the beginning.

 

[lockerxx]

Well, this is not a terrible design. Just some do not understand how this storylines moves and just want lesbian content, not realizing that Sophia Ellie and Patricia are not lesbians. And men in the plot are necessary at the beginning.

easy fix you need flity points for dylan too.

 

[leproso0413]

How can I play on day 17? with the save I have I finish on day 16 and I have the version 0.8 beta

 

[Lion sB4]

How can I play on day 17? with the save I have I finish on day 16 and I have the version 0.8 beta

Same here

 

[Ronin]

I was thinking and what are the chances of this happening:
Sophia goes to a tanning salon (surprise event + she will tan a little more)
When Sophia is inside the tanning bed, she will listen to a conversation between two men. They are Logan and Tyler (they have a session photos and they have to be tanned).
At that time we are going to listen to what they really think about Sophia and Ellie. And it's not going to be good. (Probably at this point, Logan's option to break up begins)
By listening to the whole conversation Sophia is going to spend more time than required and tan a little more.
After dinner with Mr. Bennett. Sophia returns home and meets Ellie. Sophia tells Ellie (truth / lie I do not know) what happened in the tanning salon. And Ellie is going to propose to Sophia to apply body cream to the burns and marks on her back and a little lower...
And that's the hot lesbian scene on the 10th that L&P said there was going to be.

 

[Foxcatcher]

Dev says the next update goes back to 0.05 update.
What month is 0.085 expected to be released?

When the previous plan was 0.025 plan, the 0.085 version of the release was expected in October.

 

[Jack Burton]

Well, while I'm waiting the next update to drop, I thought I'd throw out some classic quotes:

"What the hell does that mean? huh? China is here, I don’t even know what the hell that means, all I know is this “Lo Pan” character comes out of thin air in the middle of a goddamn alley while his buddies are flying around on wires cutting everybody to shreds, and he just stands there waiting for me to drive my truck straight through him, with light coming out of his mouth!”

 

[Dr.SigmundFap]

Well, while I'm waiting the next update to drop, I thought I'd throw out some classic quotes:

"What the hell does that mean? huh? China is here, I don’t even know what the hell that means, all I know is this “Lo Pan” character comes out of thin air in the middle of a goddamn alley while his buddies are flying around on wires cutting everybody to shreds, and he just stands there waiting for me to drive my truck straight through him, with light coming out of his mouth!”

Just remember what ol' Jack Burton does when the earth quakes, and the poison arrows fall from the sky, and the pillars of Heaven shake. Yeah, Jack Burton just looks that big ol' storm right square in the eye and he says, “Give me your best shot, pal. I can take it.

 

[lesbiaN7ncest]

Well, this is not a terrible design. Just some do not understand how this storylines moves and just want lesbian content, not realizing that Sophia Ellie and Patricia are not lesbians. And men in the plot are necessary at the beginning.

No, from a gameplay perspective it IS terrible design. L&P sets it up that there is a lesbian path, but locks a good deal of the lesbian content behind non-lesbian interactions. There is a specific "Lesbian Temptation" stat but it pretty much doesn't even factor into the interactions between Sophia and her two fellow female family. And again it snowballs quickly, and you miss out one ONE interaction with either of them because of not meeting the Filthy point requirements and you can never catch up, because their interactions need to you bleed every single character-based point in order to progress with them.

I get it from the perspective that Sophia should need to be "filthier" to consider them as love interests because of the incest angle and all that, but this is a case where realism is getting in the way of logical and rewarding gameplay. Again, forcing players to do content that is counter-intuitive to the type of experience they want because it has to be done to unlock progression with the characters they do want is bad design. No professional game ever does this in a progression system. You don't play Dragon Age for example and have to flirt with Allister and Zevran just to unlock romance content with Leliana and Morrigan. That would be stupid. But that's exactly what L&P is doing with this.

When you make a game about choices and consequences you need to tie the consequences to the choices in a meaningful way that makes sense to the narrative and rewards the players in an intuitive way. Simple as that. This game doesn't do that because the consequences aren't always reflective of the choices at all, and the choices are deliberately misleading. If you try to follow a pure lesbian path then it's impossible to get the most commonly occurring (and I'd argue most sought after) lesbian options in the game. And this even includes me being generous and having Sophia read a dirty magazine and go along with anything Patricia tells her to do too that aren't directly lesbian content either. Even then you don't have enough Filthy points to unlock some pretty early Patricia encounters and options, and as soon as you miss those you can't get up enough to get several future encounters. And each missed encounter is usually also missed points with her. The same thing quickly happens to Ellie not long afterwards.

 

[goobdoob]

No, from a gameplay perspective it IS terrible design. L&P sets it up that there is a lesbian path, but locks a good deal of the lesbian content behind non-lesbian interactions. There is a specific "Lesbian Temptation" stat but it pretty much doesn't even factor into the interactions between Sophia and her two fellow female family. And again it snowballs quickly, and you miss out one ONE interaction with either of them because of not meeting the Filthy point requirements and you can never catch up, because their interactions need to you bleed every single character-based point in order to progress with them.

I get it from the perspective that Sophia should need to be "filthier" to consider them as love interests because of the incest angle and all that, but this is a case where realism is getting in the way of logical and rewarding gameplay. Again, forcing players to do content that is counter-intuitive to the type of experience they want because it has to be done to unlock progression with the characters they do want is bad design. No professional game ever does this in a progression system. You don't play Dragon Age for example and have to flirt with Allister and Zevran just to unlock romance content with Leliana and Morrigan. That would be stupid. But that's exactly what L&P is doing with this.

When you make a game about choices and consequences you need to tie the consequences to the choices in a meaningful way that makes sense to the narrative and rewards the players in an intuitive way. Simple as that. This game doesn't do that because the consequences aren't always reflective of the choices at all, and the choices are deliberately misleading. If you try to follow a pure lesbian path then it's impossible to get the most commonly occurring (and I'd argue most sought after) lesbian options in the game. And this even includes me being generous and having Sophia read a dirty magazine and go along with anything Patricia tells her to do too that aren't directly lesbian content either. Even then you don't have enough Filthy points to unlock some pretty early Patricia encounters and options, and as soon as you miss those you can't get up enough to get several future encounters. And each missed encounter is usually also missed points with her. The same thing quickly happens to Ellie not long afterwards.

These are well thought-out and cogent arguments.

One problem, though - L&P is not a professional game developer, outside of his Patreon gig doing this. You can't expect him to understand "logical and rewarding gameplay", or expect him to do things at the level of Bioware.

And, as you pointed out, there's the incest angle. So comparing Sophia needing to get filthier to be able to get with her sister and daughter to the lesbian/gay romances in Dragon Age isn't valid.

You wrote "No professional game ever does this in a progression system." But this isn't a professional game. Not by a long shot. This is one dude with a story trying to figure it out as he goes along. And, IMO, not willing to learn from his mistakes.

 

[WildBillKatt]

Took 20 months to get to the 8 month mark, but game is getting good now so I am happy.

 

[lesbiaN7ncest]

These are well thought-out and cogent arguments.

One problem, though - L&P is not a professional game developer, outside of his Patreon gig doing this. You can't expect him to understand "logical and rewarding gameplay", or expect him to do things at the level of Bioware.

No, but he does seem like a perfectionist who wants to make a professional product. And the sad fact is that far less professional porn games made by people I'd argue have less technical skill seem to at least get this simple concept. Most other games I download and play from this site follow the basic formula that choices lead to logical and manageable consequences that make sense. They usually don't force content you don't want upon you just to get the outcome you want (unless they're linear games where you have to see most of the content anyway). Simply put, most porn games at least get the basic concept that if you go for a particular love-interest and you make the right choices, you get the outcome that's expected. They don't hide and block off content behind unrelated love-interests and content.

And, as you pointed out, there's the incest angle. So comparing Sophia needing to get filthier to be able to get with her sister and daughter to the lesbian/gay romances in Dragon Age isn't valid.

I think you've misinterpreted my Dragon Age comparison, perhaps I didn't word it well enough. My comparison was not so much towards Sophia specifically needing to get filthier, but more to the fact that she has to pursue content with other potential love interests that the player may not be interested in in order to unlock the ability to even pursue the ones that they are. That is overall where the problem lies: that in order for Sophia to be a lesbian with her sister and/or daughter, she needs to be a cock-slut with various men.

The problem isn't so much that she needs a certain amount of Filthy points to progress with both Patricia and Ellie, because concept wise that actually makes sense. The problem is that the ONLY PLACE she can obtain the required amount of said points from is from interactions with male characters. Also, again, there's a "Lesbian Temptation" stat in place to govern things, but it doesn't factor in with most Patricia and Ellie interactions so far as requirements go (it's certainly less prevalent than just Filthy). If the game were designed better either the Filthy requirements would be slightly lower with an additional Lesbian Temptation score needed to make up the difference, or overall there should be more opportunity for Sophia to earn Filthy points through female-related encounters.

You wrote "No professional game ever does this in a progression system." But this isn't a professional game. Not by a long shot. This is one dude with a story trying to figure it out as he goes along. And, IMO, not willing to learn from his mistakes.

You last point certainly seems to be the case unfortunately. I brought this up in the past and L&P responded, but instead of acknowledging the criticism and heeding the advice he stubbornly put his foot down on the matter and soldiered on stubbornly. And as such the game is getting worse and worse when it comes to this issue for it judging from the most recent updates, because now it's gotten to the point where it's not just points that can cut off content, but specific choices as well.

 

[farrah]

You last point certainly seems to be the case unfortunately. I brought this up in the past and L&P responded, but instead of acknowledging the criticism and heeding the advice he stubbornly put his foot down on the matter and soldiered on stubbornly. And as such the game is getting worse and worse when it comes to this issue for it judging from the most recent updates, because now it's gotten to the point where it's not just Filthy points that can cut off content, but specific choices as well.

You just need to look at the story of Patricia and Ellie completely separate from everything, and in this storyline you have to flirt with men, and no one to forced you to sleep with them . Moreover, I assure you that when Patricia(Ellie) and Sophia reach mutual sympathy and desire, filty points will not be needed at all. But alas, we do not have filthy lesbian woman characters in the game to earn filthy points on them. But that is the concept.
And I understand that you do not like heterosexual content, and I myself am a big fan of lesbian incest. Therefore, I understand your displeasure.

 

[lesbiaN7ncest]

You just need to look at the story of Patricia and Ellie completely separate from everything, and in this storyline you have to flirt with men, and no one to forced you to sleep with them . Moreover, I assure you that when Patricia(Ellie) and Sophia reach mutual sympathy and desire, filty points will not be needed at all. But alas, we do not have filthy lesbian woman characters in the game to earn filthy points on them. But that is the concept.
And I understand that you do not like heterosexual content, and I myself am a big fan of lesbian incest. Therefore, I understand your displeasure.

Looking at it a different way doesn't alter the fact that it's bad game design. When you have different love interest options in a game you should be able to pursue them by pursuing THEM, not being forced to interact with other characters you may not like in order to do so. You shouldn't have to waste your time doing multiple other playthroughs just to figure out what you need to do to get the character(s) you want, it should come naturally. Yes, you should have to make the right choices, but you should be making the right choices with regards to the character you're pursuing, not a bunch of arbitrary random other ones.

Also, what's the point in saying "when Patricia(Ellie) and Sophia reach mutual sympathy and desire, filty points will not be needed at all" when you already have to get the early ones anyway? By then it's too late and doesn't matter. The experience has already been ruined by having to put up with the unwanted content and bad design at the start. If this is "the concept" as you say then it's a terrible concept and terribly executed. Bad design is bad design, and if you have to go through mental gymnastics or alter the rules yourself to make it work, then it just illustrates how bad the design is.

 

[farrah]

unwanted content

That's the whole problem, for you it is unwanted content. But the author was honest from the very beginning and said that it was necessary for their storylines. Therefore, all criticism is based only on personal desires and tastes.

 

[Andre13]

That's the whole problem, for you it is unwanted content. But the author was honest from the very beginning and said that it was necessary for their storylines. Therefore, all criticism is based only on personal desires and tastes.

but then its not so much choice based, as its authors vision of the game, not so much as players, kinda takes the fun out of it...

 

[farrah]

but then its not so much choice based, as its authors vision of the game, not so much as players, kinda takes the fun out of it...

Yeah, is probably the author's idea. Just as without school blackmails events, we will not have sex between Dylan and Sophia in the future.

 

[Taker Fan]

Oh About the choices:

Good wife route 1 : Pure loving wifes + debt free, Ellie is not dating logan, Send dylan to boarding school
Good wife route 2 : Pure loving wifes, debt to the casino mafia, Agree to aiden blackmail
Good wife route 3 : Lesbian cheating wife+ debt free, Ellie is not dating logan, Send dylan to boarding school
Good wife route 4 : Lesbian cheating wife, debt to the casino mafia, Agree to aiden blackmail

Filthy route 1 (non Lesbian) : Debt to the casino mafia, aiden blackmail, Mr.bennett, Tylerr, sam, dylan, museum boys
Filthy route 2 : Debt to the casino mafia, aiden blackmail, Mr.bennett, Tylerr, sam, dylan, museum boys, ellie, patricia
Filthy route 3 (non lesbian) : Debt free, Ellie is not dating logan, Aiden blackmail, Mr.bennett, tylerr, sam, dylan, museum boys
Filthy route 4 : Debt free, aiden blackmail, Mr.bennett, Tylerr, sam, dylan, museum boys, ellie, patricia
Filthy route 5 : Debt free, send dylan to boarding school, Mr.bennett, Tylerr, sam, dylan, museum boys, ellie, patricia

Filthy route 6: Debt to the casino mafia, Tyler, Sam, Museum boys, Ellie, Patricia, no Aiden Blackmail, send Dylan to boarding School, The Maid. Later Maybe(My guess and thinking): Zac, Alyssa, Amber/Dylan affair?

That overview came from KinyGal.The 6th Filthy route was my idea.