Ren'Py Another Chance [v1.51] [TimeWizardStudios]

[Tehemai]

his own mother and sister are shocked when he's not a complete asshole and pervert

I agree it's not 100% clear but I will say to this that he in fact can still be a complete pervert and all around pretty jerky and they still react not that horribly to it. A lot of those choices even just give them lust. Imo I'm sure his attitude does somewhat factor into his better social results as the relationships develop, but it does seem like his starting point there's already a strong change affecting everyone's general disposition.

As him still holding onto the notions that everyone was an asshole, when he was the one at fault for either bad behavior or, in Lindsey's case, not even trying.

Honestly, I just cannot fathom it being purely him. If that turns out to be true, that would be a rather cheesy cop out for a game this carefully written. That would mean not only did the game gloss over all the real character development that lead to his reform, it would also be an unrealistic background for how he ended up that way. Young people are malleable and highly subject to peer pressure. If life was already beating him down that hard that early for merely mouthing off, he almost certainly would have adapted before adulthood. Even if that meant faking all his social interactions to fit in. And if he is one of the few that just can't adapt, then it would be indicative of a social disorder that prevents him from changing. Hence he could not so easily be reformed by a mere text message telling him to do better this time.

And are we to believe he was also acting like a dick to the janitor as he did to everyone else, but she liked him anyway? Or did he shit on everyone but the janitor? Both are implausible. Janitors are usually the most disrespected staff members by such students for their "dirty" job. And the common janitor-student friendship trope almost always involves the janitor taking an unfortunate social outcast type under their wing. Reason being janitors relate to being unfairly looked down on for their work. It would not make writing sense for that type of character to take pity on a jerk that does it to himself.

Imo, if I had to try to profile him it's far more likely that he is not all wrong about what happened. He obviously made things worse for himself as time went on. But he obviously somewhat fell through the social cracks and got bullied at school, which created the initial behavior. And whereas he sought comfort hanging with the janitor, hanging around with the janitor all the time probably didn't score him any social points even with the nicer kids. Meanwhile back at home, his always working single mom played favorites because of his sister's exceptional academic competence. Neglecting the fact that flora was mistreating him with all the "pranks" which he likely always got blamed for given the parental favoritism.

Easy to see how such a person could shut himself from the world. And it wouldn't take many changes to help him find social footing the second time before he enters the hate spiral that killed off all his relationships.

 

[neodav]

I agree it's not 100% clear but I will say to this that he in fact can still be a complete pervert and all around pretty jerky and they still react not that horribly to it. A lot of those choices even just give them lust. Imo I'm sure his attitude does somewhat factor into his better social results as the relationships develop, but it does seem like his starting point there's already a strong change affecting everyone's general disposition.


Honestly, I just cannot fathom it being purely him. If that turns out to be true, that would be a rather cheesy cop out for a game this carefully written. That would mean not only did the game gloss over all the real character development that lead to his reform, it also would also be an unrealistic background for how he ended up that way. Young people are highly malleable and subject to peer pressure. If life was already beating him down that hard that early in life for something he can so easily change, it is almost certain he would have learned to adapt before adulthood. Even if he had to fake all his interactions with people to fit in. And if he is one of the few that just couldn't adapt, then it would be indicative of some kind of social disorder that prevents him from changing. And hence he could not so easily be reformed by a mere text message telling him to do better this time.

And are we to believe he was also acting like a dick to the janitor as he did to everyone else, but she liked him anyway? Or did he shit on everyone but the janitor? Both are implausible. Janitors are usually the most disrespected staff members by such students for their "dirty" job. And the common janitor-student friendship trope almost always involves the janitor taking an unfortunate social outcast type under their wing. Reason being janitors relate to being unfairly looked down on. It would not make writing sense for that type of character to look after a jerk that purely does it to himself.

I mean, as well written as it is, there's still a fair bit of stuff you need to gloss over. This alternate reality or whatever it is seems to operate pretty heavily on dream logic. Sometimes that's game mechanic stuff like random $20 bills strewn everywhere that replenish every morning, water bottles costing $100, or adventure game-style item combination puzzles. Sometimes it's stuff that's technically possible, but unlikely-to-unthinkable outside of porn, like the previously shy, insecure teacher also having a history of making erotic workout/BDSM tapes (admittedly some supernatural bullshit's involved with her) or the school nurse secretly being the head cheerleader's semi-willing sex slave. Sometimes it's stuff that only works in porn, like aphrodisiacs that instantly make the consumer uncontrollably horny with no side effects. And sometimes it's random stuff that wouldn't even make sense in porn, like a bonsai turning into a tentacle rape tree overnight because you sprayed it with soda or semi-sapient malicious beavers.

Don't get me wrong, it's awesome, but there are some things that don't have total internal consistency no matter how you look at them. It makes me a little nervous that the dev might go for one of the classic cop-out "none of this was real" endings (dream/dying delusion, purgatory/divine test, or fourth wall break/it's a game all along). The writing's good enough that I'm hoping they can come up with something better, but I'm not sure how to stick the landing there. In the meantime, I'm just trying to come up with the most reasonable explanation that requires the least additional explanation.

It being him also explains why he continued to suck so badly after high school, rather than even making a token effort to make something of himself once out of the toxic environment. Don't get me wrong, I've dealt with depression, unemployment, and the ensuing doom spiral, I get the lack of motivation, but I draw the line at blaming everything in the world except yourself for it. Having gone through that kind of depression in my mid-20s, I also take issue with the idea he repeatedly seems to espouse (at least in the prologue) that his life was over and ruined at the ripe old age of 25. I get that it's not easy, and depression makes it way harder, but you have to start somewhere, and the real "Another Chance" is the next day.

 

[Tehemai]

I mean, as well written as it is, there's still a fair bit of stuff you need to gloss over. This alternate reality or whatever it is seems to operate pretty heavily on dream logic. Sometimes that's game mechanic stuff like random $20 bills strewn everywhere that replenish every morning, water bottles costing $100, or adventure game-style item combination puzzles. Sometimes it's stuff that's technically possible, but unlikely-to-unthinkable outside of porn, like the previously shy, insecure teacher also having a history of making erotic workout/BDSM tapes (admittedly some supernatural bullshit's involved with her) or the school nurse secretly being the head cheerleader's semi-willing sex slave. Sometimes it's stuff that only works in porn, like aphrodisiacs that instantly make the consumer uncontrollably horny with no side effects. And sometimes it's random stuff that wouldn't even make sense in porn, like a bonsai turning into a tentacle rape tree overnight because you sprayed it with soda or semi-sapient malicious beavers.

Don't get me wrong, it's awesome, but there are some things that don't have total internal consistency no matter how you look at them. It makes me a little nervous that the dev might go for one of the classic cop-out "none of this was real" endings (dream/dying delusion, purgatory/divine test, or fourth wall break/it's a game all along). The writing's good enough that I'm hoping they can come up with something better, but I'm not sure how to stick the landing there. In the meantime, I'm just trying to come up with the most reasonable explanation that requires the least additional explanation.

It being him also explains why he continued to suck so badly after high school, rather than even making a token effort to make something of himself once out of the toxic environment. Don't get me wrong, I've dealt with depression, unemployment, and the ensuing doom spiral, I get the lack of motivation, but I draw the line at blaming everything in the world except yourself for it. Having gone through that kind of depression in my mid-20s, I also take issue with the idea he repeatedly seems to espouse (at least in the prologue) that his life was over and ruined at the ripe old age of 25. I get that it's not easy, and depression makes it way harder, but you have to start somewhere, and the real "Another Chance" is the next day.

Of course, but it's one thing to gloss over inconsequential things to facilitate gameplay mechanics. It's another entirely to gloss over the entire character development arc of the main character. I doubt the writer would have done that.

Side note, I also edited in a character profile you may have missed since I didn't think you'd reply that quick. I think it better explains his probable situation and why he never bothered trying.

Of course you can always say pull yourself from your bootstraps, but imo I don't think he ever got the opportunity to leave that toxic environment the first time. The barrage of jokes kinda mask the severity, but without Mer's utilitarian interference and/or the speculated looks buff I severely doubt many would pull themselves out of that situation. He didn't even have one relationship he could rely on. Add the bullying we see in the second chance just from kate (literally tied up for days), it's already a fucked situation. And that happens after he self improves and makes friends. Imagine that happening and having no one to go to or even untie you. It's not an exaggeration to say some kids wouldn't have even made it to adulthood in his situation.

 

[CuriousKiyo]

I agree it's not 100% clear but I will say to this that he in fact can still be a complete pervert and all around pretty jerky and they still react not that horribly to it. A lot of those choices even just give them lust. Imo I'm sure his attitude does somewhat factor into his better social results as the relationships develop, but it does seem like his starting point there's already a strong change affecting everyone's general disposition.


Honestly, I just cannot fathom it being purely him. If that turns out to be true, that would be a rather cheesy cop out for a game this carefully written. That would mean not only did the game gloss over all the real character development that lead to his reform, it would also be an unrealistic background for how he ended up that way. Young people are malleable and highly subject to peer pressure. If life was already beating him down that hard that early for merely mouthing off, he almost certainly would have adapted before adulthood. Even if that meant faking all his social interactions to fit in. And if he is one of the few that just can't adapt, then it would be indicative of a social disorder that prevents him from changing. Hence he could not so easily be reformed by a mere text message telling him to do better this time.

And are we to believe he was also acting like a dick to the janitor as he did to everyone else, but she liked him anyway? Or did he shit on everyone but the janitor? Both are implausible. Janitors are usually the most disrespected staff members by such students for their "dirty" job. And the common janitor-student friendship trope almost always involves the janitor taking an unfortunate social outcast type under their wing. Reason being janitors relate to being unfairly looked down on for their work. It would not make writing sense for that type of character to take pity on a jerk that does it to himself.

Imo, if I had to try to profile him it's far more likely that he is not all wrong about what happened. He obviously made things worse for himself as time went on. But he obviously somewhat fell through the social cracks and got bullied at school, which created the initial behavior. And whereas he sought comfort hanging with the janitor, hanging around with the janitor all the time probably didn't score him any social points even with the nicer kids. Meanwhile back at home, his always working single mom played favorites because of his sister's exceptional academic competence. Neglecting the fact that flora was mistreating him with all the "pranks" which he likely always got blamed for given the parental favoritism.

Easy to see how such a person could shut himself from the world. And it wouldn't take many changes to help him find social footing the second time before he enters the hate spiral that killed off all his relationships.

I think we're misunderstanding each other a bit and we're actually in agreement. I didn't mean to say that it was all a hundred percent his fault, like you say, it's more a feedback loop where he does something "weird", gets socially isolated, grows more bitter as time goes one and acts worse, all going until he ends up where he was at the intro.
Now, whether this is true:

Of course you can always say pull yourself from your bootstraps, but imo I don't think he ever got the opportunity to leave that toxic environment the first time.

It's really just up to personal opinion, like you said. For what it's worth, the game does seem to be going in the direction that Kate's power over the MC was due to his own cowardice, considering one of the Moments of Glory required for Kate's love route is obtained by the MC just not going along with her games and walking away, and if he doesn't ignore her, then the most severe case of bullying, that being the ropes, happens - side note but I find it funny how even at her worst, Kate still has some decency in leaving you a phone in case you get in serious danger, while Isabelle ignores you after her white whale is mentioned without checking on you to see if you're okay. Isabelle is insane best girl!
Here's where the game's tone sorta harms the narrative, as it's unclear how much of things that happened in the past are meant to be jokes, porn logic or serious. Is Flora justified in her actions because her brother put a slug in her milk that made her sick, or is it a joke? Is Kate's true extent of bullying supposed to be horrible, or is it a setup for femdom, or even a joke at how weak the MC was that he could get held down by a bunch of girls. Personally, I don't think school was THAT actually bad for MC considering how in the flashback he gets along well enough with people, only later in life do things truly get out of control. I doubt these questions would get answered any time soon, so eh, it's anyone's guess.

I mean, as well written as it is, there's still a fair bit of stuff you need to gloss over. This alternate reality or whatever it is seems to operate pretty heavily on dream logic. Sometimes that's game mechanic stuff like random $20 bills strewn everywhere that replenish every morning, water bottles costing $100, or adventure game-style item combination puzzles. Sometimes it's stuff that's technically possible, but unlikely-to-unthinkable outside of porn, like the previously shy, insecure teacher also having a history of making erotic workout/BDSM tapes (admittedly some supernatural bullshit's involved with her) or the school nurse secretly being the head cheerleader's semi-willing sex slave. Sometimes it's stuff that only works in porn, like aphrodisiacs that instantly make the consumer uncontrollably horny with no side effects. And sometimes it's random stuff that wouldn't even make sense in porn, like a bonsai turning into a tentacle rape tree overnight because you sprayed it with soda or semi-sapient malicious beavers.

I mean, a magic cake is the actual, canon reason MC gets written out of the will, so the world was already pretty weird beforehand. I think we just have to accept the more silly aspects of the game and not give them much though.

 

[neodav]

Of course, but it's one thing to gloss over inconsequential things to facilitate gameplay mechanics. It's another entirely to gloss over the entire character development arc of the main character. I doubt the writer would have done that.

Side note, I also edited in a character profile you may have missed since I didn't think you'd reply that quick. I think it better explains his probable situation and why he never bothered trying.

Of course you can always say pull yourself from your bootstraps, but imo I don't think he ever got the opportunity to leave that toxic environment the first time. The barrage of jokes kinda mask the severity, but without Mer's utilitarian interference and/or the speculated looks buff I severely doubt many would pull themselves out of that situation. He didn't even have one relationship he could rely on. Add the bullying we see in the second chance just from kate (literally tied up for days), it's already a fucked situation. And that happens after he self improves and makes friends. Imagine that happening and having no one to go to or even untie you. It's not an exaggeration to say some kids wouldn't have even made it to adulthood in his situation.

I don't disagree with you by any means. I think it's a mix of factors. He underwent a lot of genuine bullying, and while it probably didn't have the psychosexual components seen in the game, it was probably brutal. If anything, it might have been worse than what we see in the game, given that conservation of detail means we never actually see any male students like the jocks who were involved in a lot of it. It probably also happened on a regular basis for years, not just the couple of one-off events you trigger when you choose to approach a known bully. No surprise at all that fucked him up.

I just don't buy the MC's claim that the bullying was universal. Rather, it's more likely he responded to the bullying by retreating into his shell, and ignored or didn't see the people who were decent or neutral toward him because he was too wrapped up in his own problems to notice. If we're assuming his prior life resembles the real world, most non-bullies probably didn't pay much attention to him one way or the other unless he did something to actively draw their attention. They were too wrapped up in their own stresses and hardships too (top of my head, his teacher probably really was insecure and Lindsey probably had a ton of pressure to excel on her, for example). If he'd applied himself or made an effort to reach out socially (and not just sexually), even to people he wasn't trying to sleep with, he would probably have found at least a couple of likeable people, but he'd become afraid to and didn't realize the faceless masses had faces of their own. Separately and in addition to that, he fell down the incel rabbit hole, also a common thing in real life, and that convinced him of all sorts of bullshit. He latched onto it because it let him reassure himself that the shit he was dealing with wasn't his fault. Unfortunately, it also enabled his worst behavior, shittiest personality traits, and perverted attitudes toward women, which only amplified his problems by kicking off worse retaliatory bullying and made previously-neutral people more likely to actively avoid/dislike him.

As for his home life, I agree it was a hybrid. There was probably a measure of unintentional Golden Child/Dross Child treatment by his mother growing up, which when combined with plain old sibling rivalry, meant that he gave up on life at home too. When he stopped making any effort and retreated into the lowest expectations and worst behavior, though, that's when he actively became a disappointment and creep under their roof. Differences in ambition aside, no surprise his sister wanted nothing to do with the brother who'd perved on her and their mother throughout her teenage years.

I'm certainly not trying to spout a bunch of "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" crap. Like I said, I've been where he was at the start of the game to an extent. Not quite the same, I had more education, a supportive family, and never fell into incel crap, but unable to find any work in the field I'd studied for, single, woefully out of shape, and dealing with the depression spiral of feeling like a complete failure, knowing I needed to change, and didn't have the wherewithal to actually act on it, which made me hate myself worse. I did eventually find a job (a crap job loading boxes, but it was some sort of job, it helped solve the "out of shape" problem really quick, and my education helped me move up to corporate in short order), and started getting my shit together. I'm not going to pretend for an instant it's easy to overcome, and I don't think less of him for struggling to do so, but it's necessary to at least try to do something, wallowing is the absolute least healthy option. If anything, his ability to afford his rig and the like is evidence that he had at least some support, presumably from his mother, even if she had written him out of the will.

It's not an exaggeration to say some kids wouldn't have even made it to adulthood in his situation.

Believe me, I'm very aware of that part. Suicide's one route he might have gone down (intentionally or through drug abuse), but not the only one. I've been trying to avoid saying this, but we're all presumably adults here, so I'm going to put this out there and trust people to understand I'm not making light of it: If the MC at the start of the game had been into guns as much as he is porn, he'd be a very likely school shooter. The history of extreme bullying, the social isolation, the self-loathing over not amounting to anything... Shit's complicated, but from a layman's perspective, he has "blaze of glory/be remembered for something/I'll show them all" written all over him. It's a piece of mercy that he grows out of that quickly in the new version of reality.

 

[Tehemai]

I think we're misunderstanding each other a bit and we're actually in agreement. I didn't mean to say that it was all a hundred percent his fault, like you say, it's more a feedback loop where he does something "weird", gets socially isolated, grows more bitter as time goes one and acts worse, all going until he ends up where he was at the intro.
Now, whether this is true:

It's really just up to personal opinion, like you said. For what it's worth, the game does seem to be going in the direction that Kate's power over the MC was due to his own cowardice, considering one of the Moments of Glory required for Kate's love route is obtained by the MC just not going along with her games and walking away, and if he doesn't ignore her, then the most severe case of bullying, that being the ropes, happens - side note but I find it funny how even at her worst, Kate still has some decency in leaving you a phone in case you get in serious danger, while Isabelle ignores you after her white whale is mentioned without checking on you to see if you're okay. Isabelle is insane best girl!
Here's where the game's tone sorta harms the narrative, as it's unclear how much of things that happened in the past are meant to be jokes, porn logic or serious. Is Flora justified in her actions because her brother put a slug in her milk that made her sick, or is it a joke? Is Kate's true extent of bullying supposed to be horrible, or is it a setup for femdom, or even a joke at how weak the MC was that he could get held down by a bunch of girls. Personally, I don't think school was THAT actually bad for MC considering how in the flashback he gets along well enough with people, only later in life do things truly get out of control. I doubt these questions would get answered any time soon, so eh, it's anyone's guess.

I get that but I think it's a little bit backwards thinking. Of course if MC were in a different situation, he could have had a different outcome. The problem is he couldn't reasonably be expected to do that because his situation was already dire on paper from an early age. He explicitly states the closest he had to a friend was the janitor. That's not normal even for the jerkiest of jerks. Clearly the people at school had already began to ostracize him. And at home he had no father to teach him how to stand up for himself. No mother to do anything but blame him for everything that went wrong. No sister to ever act like anything but a prankster nuisance. So the idea that he should have just studied, worked out and stood up alone to all his bullies is a bit of an absurd ask.

As it is, there is an argument to be made how much is it really him changing or the second chance changing the scenarios enough to give him the tools to become a better person. If no one interfered and he was given a second chance with absolutely no variables changed, he almost certainly would have wound up in the exact same place. Imo, it's only because he for whatever reason now has entirely different social standing that he is able to achieve everything he is achieving. And that new footing seems to be given to him on day 1, not day 100.

For all the shade people throw onto Mer, it may very well end up being her plots that saved his life this time. If she did not manipulate everyone around him, he may not have formed the initial bonds necessary to break the cycle. After all, the two people that really warm up to MC immediately are isabelle and lindsey. And they are exactly the two people she manipulated the most.

I am curious though, what flashback are you speaking of? I've seen a lot of dream sequences but I don't really recall any proper flashbacks. Maybe I have overlooked a scene that reframes this conversation.

I just don't buy the MC's claim that the bullying was universal. Rather, it's more likely he responded to the bullying by retreating into his shell, and ignored or didn't see the people who were decent or neutral toward him because he was too wrapped up in his own problems to notice. If we're assuming his prior life resembles the real world, most non-bullies probably didn't pay much attention to him one way or the other unless he did something to actively draw their attention. They were too wrapped up in their own stresses and hardships too (top of my head, his teacher probably really was insecure and Lindsey probably had a ton of pressure to excel on her, for example). If he'd applied himself or made an effort to reach out socially (and not just sexually), even to people he wasn't trying to sleep with, he would probably have found at least a couple of likeable people, but he'd become afraid to and didn't realize the faceless masses had faces of their own. Seperately and in addition to that, he fell down the incel rabbit hole, also a common thing in real life, and that convinced him of all sorts of bullshit. He latched onto it because it let him reassure himself that the shit he was dealing with wasn't his fault. Unfortunately, it also enabled his worst behavior, shittiest personality traits, and perverted attitudes toward women, which only amplified his problems by kicking off worse retaliatory bullying and made previously-neutral people more likely to actively avoid/dislike him.

As for his home life, I agree it was a hybrid. There was probably a measure of unintentional Golden Child/Dross Child treatment by his mother growing up, which when combined with plain old sibling rivalry, meant that he gave up on life at home too. When he stopped making any effort and retreated into the lowest expectations and worst behavior, though, that's when he actively became a disappointment and creep under their roof. Differences in ambition aside, no surprise his sister wanted nothing to do with the brother who'd perved on her and thier mother throughout her teenage years.

I'm certainly not trying to spout a bunch of "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" crap. Like I said, I've been where he was at the start of the game to an extent. Not quite the same, I had more education, a supportive family, and never fell into incel crap, but unable to find any work in the field I'd studied for, single, woefully out of shape, and dealing with the depression spiral of feeling like a complete failure, knowing I needed to change, and didn't have the wherewithal to actually act on it, which made me hate myself worse. I did eventually find a job (a crap job loading boxes, but it was some sort of job, it helped solve the "out of shape" problem really quick, and my education helped me move up to corporate in short order), and started getting my shit together. I'm not going to pretend for an instant it's easy to overcome, and I don't think less of him for struggling to do so, but it's necessary to do something. If anything, his ability to afford his rig and the like is evidence that he had at least some support, presumably from his mother, even if she had written him out of the will.



Believe me, I'm very aware of that part. Suicide's one route he might have gone down (intentionally or through drug abuse), but not the only one. I've been trying to avoid saying this, but we're all presumably adults here, so I'm going to put this out there and trust people to understand I'm not making light of it: If the MC at the start of the game had been into guns as much as he is porn, he'd be a very likely school shooter. The history of extreme bullying, the social isolation, the self-loathing over not amounting to anything... Shit's complicated, but from a layman's perspective, he has "blaze of glory/be remembered for something/I'll show them all" written all over him. It's a piece of mercy that he grows out of that quickly in the new version of reality.

That's the thing, I don't really see how you expect him to realistically do any of the things you expect of him while still being a believable human. As you mentioned, there is a difference here of having a supportive family. In other words, a basic foundation we take for granted that he did not have. He doesn't appear to have a father figure in his life to teach him these things. And he had a largely absentee (at best) mother on top of all his other issues. What little family he had was anything but supportive, despite both being in a great position to help.

He had absolutely no basic footing to pull this rabbit out of the hat. It's only because the second chance basically changed his initial circumstances that he's able to do everything he's doing. And imo, the proof of this not really being his fault is that in fact his life does change on the second chance despite not having any real catalyst that would explain a change in his "incel" personality. It's not like someone took the time to teach him a lesson between life 1 and life 2. He went straight from life 1 to life 2. He was the exact same guy in a slightly altered circumstance. And the main alteration was indeed just a few people's general disposition towards him and that is what in turn changed his own personality. Which frankly, is pretty much exactly what he theorized was the problem in his first life.

 

[neodav]

I am curious though, what flashback are you speaking of? I've seen a lot of dream sequences but I don't really recall any proper flashbacks. Maybe I have overlooked a scene that reframes this conversation.

At a guess, I think they're referring to the car wash. He's on semi-decent terms with his sister and most of the girls (though Kate was still vile), he at least has the option to comfort his crying mother in a bikini (and it's mentioned he canonically made fun of her, which surely didn't help her feelings for him), and most vitally, Lindsey actually came over to help him with the janitor's closet and was nice/friendly to him on the one occasion he'd actually spoken to her. I don't think it undermines the very real bullying he faced (especially since, again, we never actually see the abuse he doubtless gets from the other guys at the school or what Kate's posse is like separately from Kate), but there were signs that things weren't always completely awful.

What little family he had was anything but supportive, despite both being in a great position to help.

We don't actually know that, because we never saw him try anything. We don't know that they wouldn't have helped if he showed any desire or attempt to turn his life around. Hell, in the intro, he outright talks about all the opportunities he passed on and things he could have done but never did. We don't know what he would or wouldn't be capable of if he tried to do so. It doesn't have to be major, but basic hygiene, going out for a walk, or sending out an application for some minimum wage nothing of a job would be more than we actually see. Baby steps are still steps, but he became so gun-shy because of prior failures that he seemingly gave up on trying at all. Honestly, some of what you see as signs of manipulation or being in another world, like people laughing at a joke or being nice back when he's nice to them (especially Isabelle, who's never met him before and so her only exposure to him is potentially him being friendly), feels less like him thinking something's off and more like him going "wait, that actually worked?" He might be butting up against the new reality, or maybe he's butting up against his own preconceptions and narrative.

 

[Tehemai]

At a guess, I think they're referring to the car wash. He's on semi-decent terms with his sister and most of the girls (though Kate was still vile), he at least has the option to comfort his crying mother in a bikini (and it's mentioned he canonically made fun of her, which surely didn't help her feelings for him), and most vitally, Lindsey actually came over to help him with the janitor's closet and was nice/friendly to him on the one occasion he'd actually spoken to her. I don't think it undermines the very real bullying he faced (especially since, again, we never actually see the abuse he doubtless gets from the other guys at the school or what Kate's posse is like separately from Kate), but there were signs that things weren't always completely awful.

Lol it can't be, that's literally written as the least realistic dream out of all of them. They obviously never organized a school bikini car wash, that was a reoccurring sexy dream of his. They were all intentionally incredibly out of character in that one for comedic effect. With only a brief reprieve for an emotional moment with his mom which is probably foreshadowing something for later.

 

[neodav]

Out of all of them, that one? Lol that's literally written as the least realistic dream out of all of them. They obviously never organized a school bikini car wash, that was a reoccurring sexy dream of his. They were all intentionally incredibly out of character in that one for comedic effect. With only a brief reprieve for an emotional moment with his mom which is probably foreshadowing something for later.

Like I said, that's just a top-of-my-head guess on my part. I agree with you that it's unrealistic and plays a lot of it for jokes, but the MC generally notes the parts of it where he's just fantasizing or diverged from reality (like if you take the signs and run instead of groveling to Kate, he openly wishes he hadn't groveled in reality, and he notes that he really did make fun of his mother at her most vulnerable, which suggests that some parts of that day were real). It's also really not the time for a pointless comedic scene considering it immediately follows Lindsey's suicide attempt and ends with him watching the ambulance speed away, so it's very possible, even likely, the devs were setting something up there that's more serious than it first appeared.

 

[CuriousKiyo]

I get that but I think it's a little bit backwards thinking. Of course if MC were in a different situation, he could have had a different outcome. The problem is he couldn't reasonably be expected to do that because his situation was already dire on paper from an early age. He explicitly states the closest he had to a friend was the janitor. That's not normal even for the jerkiest of jerks. Clearly the people at school had already began to ostracize him. And at home he had no father to teach him how to stand up for himself. No mother to do anything but blame him for everything that went wrong. No sister to ever act like anything but a prankster nuisance. So the idea that he should have just studied, worked out and stood up alone to all his bullies is a bit of an absurd ask.

I do think you may be, indeed, reading a bit too much into things. The game lays out again and again how regretful the mc is about how things turned out and always puts the blame on him. The thing, I think, we're supposed to take away is that the mc is taking this chance to make things better. If the world was also changed to make it easier it'd kinda undermine a lot of the development he's received, though this could be possible. I'll get back to that later.
And also I find the home situation to be bit of a self fulfilling prophecy. Flora and her brother were in the same situation initially, so unless she is a prodigy who does things easier, which I find unlikely as multiple we're shown how diligent she is, the only reason why she has it easier is, unironically, because she actually works harder. This also comes into a play with an amusing line where Flora complains about how hard she has to work to earn her mother's approval while the mc can do the bare minimum and fuck her gain her love.

If no one interfered and he was given a second chance with absolutely no variables changed, he almost certainly would have wound up in the exact same place.

Knowledge about the future seems like a pretty good variable to change.

For all the shade people throw onto Mer, it may very well end up being her plots that saved his life this time. If she did not manipulate everyone around him, he may not have formed the initial bonds necessary to break the cycle. After all, the two people that really warm up to MC immediately are isabelle and lindsey. And they are exactly the two people she manipulated the most.

This is a very good point and now we return to what I said earlier about things changing. I do agree that the main catalysts for the change are these two. Hell, if memory serves correctly, the only reason Lindsey and mc got close was due to her falling, maybe by Mer's influence. So I don't think mc's social standing got changed outright, but the situations were designed to give him an easier shot.

I am curious though, what flashback are you speaking of? I've seen a lot of dream sequences but I don't really recall any proper flashbacks. Maybe I have overlooked a scene that reframes this conversation.

This one:

At a guess, I think they're referring to the car wash. He's on semi-decent terms with his sister and most of the girls (though Kate was still vile), he at least has the option to comfort his crying mother in a bikini (and it's mentioned he canonically made fun of her, which surely didn't help her feelings for him), and most vitally, Lindsey actually came over to help him with the janitor's closet and was nice/friendly to him on the one occasion he'd actually spoken to her. I don't think it undermines the very real bullying he faced (especially since, again, we never actually see the abuse he doubtless gets from the other guys at the school or what Kate's posse is like separately from Kate), but there were signs that things weren't always completely awful.

Out of all of them, that one? Lol that's literally written as the least realistic dream out of all of them. They obviously never organized a school bikini car wash, that was obviously a reoccurring sexy dream of his. They were all intentionally incredibly out of character in that one for comedic effect. With only a brief reprieve for an emotional moment with his mom which is probably foreshadowing something for later.

Now I think you're discrediting the thing too much. Of course there are things the mc embellishes, he even admits as much, but the event most definitely still happened. This flashback occurs right after Lindsey jumps, it was a memory of the one time they talked. The mom part confirms that a car wash did happen, as why would the mc remember her crying and feeling bad about it if he was fantasizing.
It being just all fake would ruin the scene and take away the from emotional impact of Lindsey jumping.

 

[Tehemai]

Like I said, that's just a top-of-my-head guess on my part. I agree with you that it's unrealistic and plays a lot of it for jokes, but the MC generally notes the parts of it where he's just fantasizing or diverged from reality (like if you take the signs and run instead of groveling to Kate, he openly wishes he hadn't groveled in reality, which suggests that some part of that day was real). It's also really not the time for a pointless comedic scene considering it immediately follows Lindsey's suicide attempt and ends with him watching the ambulance speed away, so it's very possible, even likely, the devs were setting something up there that's more serious than it first appeared.

Now I think you're discrediting the thing too much. Of course there are things the mc embellishes, he even admits as much, but the event most definitely still happened. This flashback occurs right after Lindsey jumps, it was a memory of the one time they talked. The mom part confirms that a car wash did happen, as why would the mc remember her crying and feeling bad about it if he was fantasizing.
It being just all fake would ruin the scene and take away the from emotional impact of Lindsey jumping.

I thought he was thinking back to his most fond escapist fantasy because he's trying to run away from thinking about what just happened in real life. In any case, with everything hilariously embellished specifically to make it pleasant, it's obviously the worst frame of reference one could use to judge how they treated him back then. That's exactly what he would most likely change first. Which the event also makes clear from the first lines of dialogue uttered.

Edit: Tbh going through the event again, I can't really make sense of it. It seems way too out of character for a bikini car wash to have happened in any capacity. And yet oddly enough the MC does speak like it somewhat did. I just don't see how Jo of all characters would ever greenlight soft prostituting her students for mere dance funds. Only thing I can think of is they're hinting that Jo swapped personalities just like Mrs L in the shift. But that would just raise more questions than it answers.

This is a very good point and now we return to what I said earlier about things changing. I do agree that the main catalysts for the change are these two. Hell, if memory serves correctly, the only reason Lindsey and mc got close was due to her falling, maybe by Mer's influence. So I don't think mc's social standing got changed outright, but the situations were designed to give him an easier shot.

Not confirmed to be Mer but her newfound clumsiness is definitely one of the confirmed changes in the timeline. So imo, I really do think the changes deserve the bulk of the credit for MC succeeding. The change in personality is more a byproduct of that, not the cause of it.

Knowledge about the future seems like a pretty good variable to change.

But really not an explanation that justifies this specific correction in behavior. If anything with all the terrible memories of his family allegedly mistreating him, the obvious use of that knowledge by a spiteful incel would be malice not kindness. If he's indeed an incel unjustly blaming others, why would he think he should be the one to reform? It doesn't make sense to suddenly blame himself without additional intervention. That type of premise without a lesson would obviously instead setup for a revenge storyline. Not what we got.

Imo, the only way the story makes sense is if he was largely telling the truth. And because he now has some baseline footing, he has a second chance at making a life worth living. Maybe not as typical a second chance story we're all used to hearing where bad guy turns good. But I don't think it undermines anything. If anything, the nuance makes the character development of every character more interesting.

 

[DeVo1234]

Is there an updated walkthrough for this game? The one linked on the first page is from 2 years ago

 

[Gicoo]

Is there an updated walkthrough for this game? The one linked on the first page is from 2 years ago

With Chapter Select and Fast Mode a walkthrough is redundant.

 

[edgetheman]

Does this game punish you for romancing multiple girls?

 

[FGM01]

Had to load an older save to finally unfuck my game to where it wasn't broken. The last 2 quests were playing at the same time and I couldn't even progress either of them. Of course, never made a statement with Jacklyn in my main file, so I dunno why I'm bothering so hard to keep it lol. Hope that doesn't bite me in the ass when it eventually comes time for her to dabble with Flora.

 

[Parrbapp]

Does this game punish you for romancing multiple girls?

Yes, if with "punish" you mean lock out of certain content

 

[edgetheman]

Yes, if with "punish" you mean lock out of certain content

I mean like will I end up alone or do girls find out your cheating and can end things with you?

 

[CuriousKiyo]

I just don't see how Jo of all characters would ever greenlight soft prostituting her students for mere dance funds.

On the contrary, she is someone who'd do that a hundred percent. It's hinted that she sucked her way to the top so much she developed chronic throat pain. She is very much not against using sex to get what she wants.

So imo, I really do think the changes deserve the bulk of the credit for MC succeeding.

I just replayed the very beginning, and from the first moment, even before he met anyone, the mc is already resolute to changing his ways. Most of his actions this part of the game are predicated with him saying "I didn't do this before, let's change that." So I think the mc isn't quite the loser we thought, as even before meeting any of the changes to make things easier for him, he stll wanted to change. Would he have succeded if everything was the same? Maybe not, but his outlook changing was him and him alone.

 

[DeVo1234]

With Chapter Select and Fast Mode a walkthrough is redundant.

Not sure if I agree with that, for example in the first quest with Kate and the Nurse there is a unique interaction with the Nurse if you have a photo of her or something, and I have no idea how to get said photo.

Yes, if with "punish" you mean lock out of certain content

Also I'd want to know what actions lock me out of certain content, which is something a walkthrough would be handy for

 

[CuriousKiyo]

Not sure if I agree with that, for example in the first quest with Kate and the Nurse there is a unique interaction with the Nurse if you have a photo of her or something, and I have no idea how to get said photo.


Also I'd want to know what actions lock me out of certain content, which is something a walkthrough would be handy for

Everytime there's a really important choice which locks scenes, the game tells you. The one exception is that you need to do some very specific choices in season 1 to unlock a route in 2 that are very easy to miss.