VN Ren'Py Aperture [Ch.2] [Vonsatia]

[Ion.TemUS]

Yup he should only think "it's just random girl" that's hot..

It is! Also knowing our MC, it won't change his basic reaction much. He will still be angry and disgusted because that seems to be the type of person he is. So it will have a similar effect, just less personal and less heartbreaking (until he eventually finds out in the end).

and tbh people who like NTS thinks that people who like NTR (like you and me and the majority ) plays as the mc.. that's just fkin nonsense

Idk if they do.
But if they do then they are indeed wrong. At least about some of us.

Perhaps, it's not as much about insertion as it is about attachment to the characters?

For example, when we watch the Red Wedding in Game of Thrones, we don't insert ourselves as the Starks, yet feel all the weight of that incredibly tragic scene, don't we?

I think that's not entirely right. There is enough shows where I self-insert, for example that Game of Thrones example you mentioned.

I think Netori doesn't hit where I see myself either. I like to see myself more on the side of the bull/antagonist, but I don' self-insert as much. I think what is really the most exciting for me is seeing the corruption of the girl towards indecency, but not in the sense of her just becoming a nymphomanic who just goes for everyone, but more that she is attached to one particular character (the bull) and "accepts" maybe a few others or a specific acts with others because the bull likes / demands it.

I haven't yet fully found out why I like MC perspective hidden cheating, but I don't think its that Im seeing myself as the MC. I think its more that the most impact is felt when the perspective is from the MC and you see what the MC sees but also see what the MC doesn't see. Its about the hidden nature and the immorality of what is happening behind it and - again - about the girl's corruption. I do enjoy FMC perspective games too, but they lack the MC limited perspective element, so you have to go out of your way to specifically imagine where the MC is what he sees and what he doesn't and how his experience is if you want that, which makes it less exciting because there is effort in trying to create that perspective on your own and technically its not canon. The game can even sometimes contradict you in your imagination with its dialogue later on which will take you out of it.

Many games apparently solve it by making the MC unbelievably gullible and naive, so a lot probably depends on how exactly it's executed, too?

Which is what I hope Von will NOT do. I think there is a way to have these elements included with the MC being mostly oblivious and not being gullible/naive, but you'd need to think hard about every scenario to make them believable for the MC not to notice what exactly is going on.

I mean we already had a strong setup with the red-herring fake-out we had in Chapter 2 where Keita panicked and thought something was happening to Rin but it turned out it (most probably) wasn't, which I think if that happens a few times it might create a good "shield" against him immediately suspecting something is going on. Because I feel after getting to know her better he will think "she would never do that" and Rin is probably going to be good enough at lying or hiding the truth so it won't at least immediately cross his mind (won't change him from maybe panic-fantasizing about it sometimes). And then we need to make sure that anything Keita sees involves masks / changed haircolor (wig), color contacts, outfits in which she'd be unrecognizable, just enough censorship to make her not identifiable. We need to involve side characters and their friends and things happening to and with them to distract him from whats going on and keep him on his toes, so he doesn't have time to idle and think about it too hard. Stuff like that.

 

[Neryxon]

We miss you in discord bro! Hope you comeback someday.

Thank you! The feeling is mutual.

I would love to. I'm not sure if I can. Personally, I've decided to distance myself from the game because of certain concerns I have at the moment, as I've been very invested in Aperture. It's due to some previous experiences I've had.

I think that's not entirely right. There is enough shows where I self-insert, for example that Game of Thrones example you mentioned.

I think Netori doesn't hit where I see myself either. I like to see myself more on the side of the bull/antagonist, but I don' self-insert as much. I think what is really the most exciting for me is seeing the corruption of the girl towards indecency, but not in the sense of her just becoming a nymphomanic who just goes for everyone, but more that she is attached to one particular character (the bull) and "accepts" maybe a few others or a specific acts with others because the bull likes / demands it.

First of all, thank you for such a great comment. I love discussions that make us think a lot.

As for the idea, what if it depends on the person? I think there's an easy way to find out whether we self-insert and to what extent: if we were given complete freedom in terms of the character creation and their actions, what would we do? How much our appearance, ideas, and decisions would align with those of the MC?

For example, if I were to self-insert myself into the world of Aperture, the story would likely take a very different turn and be a lot less dramatic, fascinating, and compelling than it is now.

At the same time, what if it's not that important? What if it matters a lot more whether we associate with certain perspectives or not?

It's not like attachment requires self-insertion, and that's what we see in our lives on a regular basis, don't we? For instance, when we develop a strong connection to a person, we kind of "synchronize" with them, so their problems become our problems and their successes become our successes, right? An extreme example of that is deep idolization experienced by certain fans towards pop-stars.

Let's take a look at this in the genres. The main premise of NTR stories is the stark contrast between romance and infidelity, isn't it? But how can we experience this potentially profound dynamic of loss and emotional turmoil if instead of associating with the MC who goes through it firsthand, we connect to the antagonist? Doesn't that turn it into a Netori perspective with a completely different dynamic, the dynamic of power fantasy? We are no longer the ones who feel the pain, we are the ones who bring it.

Now, why would we want to feel the pain? I guess it's likely due to the "benign masochism" phenomenon. It may sound outlandish but is, in fact, very widespread. For example, if we drink bitter coffee, get mild pain after a physical exercise, watch tragic movies, play horror games, and so on, we do something physically unpleasant, but also quite enjoyable at the same time, don't we?

I've played games where the antagonist turns out to be more appealing than the protagonist, and you just started rooting for the former. The entire premise of NTR began to break apart and transform into Netori for me, because it became very hard to relate to and feel the very contrast that makes NTR so special in the first place as a player. To draw an analogy, if we play a horror game, we're often supposed to get scared as much as possible, not to dominate over the helpless protagonist, right?

I haven't yet fully found out why I like MC perspective hidden cheating, but I don't think its that Im seeing myself as the MC. I think its more that the most impact is felt when the perspective is from the MC and you see what the MC sees but also see what the MC doesn't see. Its about the hidden nature and the immorality of what is happening behind it and - again - about the girl's corruption. I do enjoy FMC perspective games too, but they lack the MC limited perspective element, so you have to go out of your way to specifically imagine where the MC is what he sees and what he doesn't and how his experience is if you want that, which makes it less exciting because there is effort in trying to create that perspective on your own and technically its not canon. The game can even sometimes contradict you in your imagination with its dialogue later on which will take you out of it.

Perhaps it's also how you said it: in many games it may be hard to explicitly see ourselves as the MC simply because we have a varying degree of how much each of us is aware of, right? The MC would often remain oblivious where the player would get a clear idea of what's going on.

Maybe it can get tricky to see the difference because of how many NTR games are structured? They often rush into the infidelity content and simply establish the romance as a simple fact, don't they? Hence, if we can't associate with the same feelings of love and jealousy that the protagonist may experience because we were never given a chance to develop them, how can we expect the NTR aspect to strike us as hard as it's supposed to in theory?

In fact, that's one of the main concerns I have about the future of Aperture at the moment. According to the latest messages, it does look like Keita and Rin's romance arc as well as the arc of Noriko might be getting rushed, so there's a chance we may never get to develop a deep connection to the characters after all, I'm afraid...

Which is what I hope Von will NOT do. I think there is a way to have these elements included with the MC being mostly oblivious and not being gullible/naive, but you'd need to think hard about every scenario to make them believable for the MC not to notice what exactly is going on.

I remember it was something we've covered on the server, actually.

Suggestions included using different POVs and showing the full picture to the player while giving only breadcrumbs of information to the MC (Keita).

I mean we already had a strong setup with the red-herring fake-out we had in Chapter 2 where Keita panicked and thought something was happening to Rin but it turned out it (most probably) wasn't, which I think if that happens a few times it might create a good "shield" against him immediately suspecting something is going on. Because I feel after getting to know her better he will think "she would never do that" and Rin is probably going to be good enough at lying or hiding the truth so it won't at least immediately cross his mind (won't change him from maybe panic-fantasizing about it sometimes). And then we need to make sure that anything Keita sees involves masks / changed haircolor (wig), color contacts, outfits in which she'd be unrecognizable, just enough censorship to make her not identifiable. We need to involve side characters and their friends and things happening to and with them to distract him from whats going on and keep him on his toes, so he doesn't have time to idle and think about it too hard. Stuff like that.

That reminds me of a desensitization technique I've seen in some horror games. They would let you face something eerie yet seemingly harmless on a regular basis until it finally turns against you. As a result, the fear can hit much harder, because you didn't expect it.

I'm not sure if it would be a good idea to use a changed appearance for Rin, though. Wouldn't that unintentionally confuse the players' minds too, making it harder to appreciate the adult content?

 

[Ion.TemUS]

Doesn't that turn it into a Netori perspective with a completely different dynamic, the dynamic of power fantasy? We are no longer the ones who feel the pain, we are the ones who bring it.

You make some very good points. I can't answer all of them immediately, but I wanted to take out this snippet. I think the main issue might be how Netori stories are usually told. In Netori stories, the focus is often JUST on the bull, its from the perspective of the bull. It leaves out big parts of the perspective of the girl in some cases (good example is Handyman Legend imo, an example that does it "better" imo would be Ntraholic, cause it has a feature to follow the girls day-by-day). Plus, the perspective of the husband/cuck will be almost completely out of the picture, making this emotionally feel more like a classic h-game where you conquer girls and fuck them rather than it being all about corrupting a girl and "taking her away" from the other guy. Maybe if Netori stories would focus more on both perspectives, then it would be closer to what you are saying here, being the ones who bring pain. You cant feel that pain you inflict and the dominance (power dynamics) you have if you leave out a big part of the perspectives of the others who are involved. I think I would actually like Netori more if it did include all perspectives more.

Maybe its also because I do like understanding everyone, bull, cuck and girl. I can do that simultaneously. If I only get part of that perspective it feels like something is missing for me personally.

I've played games where the antagonist turns out to be more appealing than the protagonist, and you just started rooting for the former. The entire premise of NTR began to break apart and transform into Netori for me, because it became very hard to relate to and feel the very contrast that makes NTR so special in the first place as a player. To draw an analogy, if we play a horror game, we're often supposed to get scared as much as possible, not to dominate over the helpless protagonist, right?

I think its not quite that simple. I agree with you mostly, but I feel there needs to be a balance. A bull that you can't understand or that is badly written is also taking you out. I tend to see the bull as the negative, antagonistic, sadistic, "dark" (bit cliche, but idk how to describe it otherwise) side of me. And the MC is the faithful, honest, upstanding, "good" side of me. Sometimes (in fantasy) you don't want your good side to win. You want your bad side, with all its negative aspects (lust-driven, malicious, sadistic) and it's good aspects (clever, driven, ambitious) to win.

That's a very abstract way of seeing it and putting it, and Im sure Im not seeing it like this CONSCIOUSLY, but when thinking it through this look on things feels RIGHT.

But to come back to the original argument, my personal preferences dictate that a "good" NTR game that I personally enjoy both on a narrative level but also sexually is one that strikes the balance. The bull having aspects that make him superior or better or more appealing than the MC can be quite intriquing, as long as its not overdone. Overdone would be if the MC is just a pathetic depressed looser who can't do anything. In that case you'd ask yourself why the FMC fell for him in the first place. What we need is an MC who is "good" enough to potentially compete with the bull, but its not quite enough - be that because of physical limitations, circumstances or because MC didn't pay enough attention or didn't put in enough of an effort, or did so too late. That last part is the flavoring of the story then. Something that causes variety, which keeps the genre (somewhat) fresh and interesting.

I'm not sure if it would be a good idea to use a changed appearance for Rin, though. Wouldn't that unintentionally confuse the players' minds too, making it harder to appreciate the adult content?

Depends how you do it I think. Rin needs to be recognizable enough for the player and at the same time just concealed enough for Keita. Its gonna be tricky.

 

[Filipis]

In fact, that's one of the main concerns I have about the future of Aperture at the moment. According to the latest messages, it does look like Keita and Rin's romance arc as well as the arc of Noriko might be getting rushed, so there's a chance we may never get to develop a deep connection to the characters after all, I'm afraid...

Well, if you actually want to see NTR action in your NTR AVN before the heat death of the universe, some mild use of porn logic is necessary to move the "romance" along (if it hasn't been pre-established already).

I think CH2 did a very good job of setting up the presence of romantic feelings between MC and Rin. Anything more than that is icing on the cake - but not a requirement. In the context of Aperture, we would be watching a potential wholesome romance get snubbed, which is equally appetizing IMHO.

 

[Neryxon]

You make some very good points. I can't answer all of them immediately, but I wanted to take out this snippet. I think the main issue might be how Netori stories are usually told. In Netori stories, the focus is often JUST on the bull, its from the perspective of the bull. It leaves out big parts of the perspective of the girl in some cases (good example is Handyman Legend imo, an example that does it "better" imo would be Ntraholic, cause it has a feature to follow the girls day-by-day). Plus, the perspective of the husband/cuck will be almost completely out of the picture, making this emotionally feel more like a classic h-game where you conquer girls and fuck them rather than it being all about corrupting a girl and "taking her away" from the other guy. Maybe if Netori stories would focus more on both perspectives, then it would be closer to what you are saying here, being the ones who bring pain. You cant feel that pain you inflict and the dominance (power dynamics) you have if you leave out a big part of the perspectives of the others who are involved. I think I would actually like Netori more if it did include all perspectives more.


Maybe its also because I do like understanding everyone, bull, cuck and girl. I can do that simultaneously. If I only get part of that perspective it feels like something is missing for me personally.

Yes, that's what I thought, too.
It's a bit funny if such NTR games unintentionally rediscover or reimagine the Netori genre this way.

I think its not quite that simple. I agree with you mostly, but I feel there needs to be a balance. A bull that you can't understand or that is badly written is also taking you out. I tend to see the bull as the negative, antagonistic, sadistic, "dark" (bit cliche, but idk how to describe it otherwise) side of me. And the MC is the faithful, honest, upstanding, "good" side of me. Sometimes (in fantasy) you don't want your good side to win. You want your bad side, with all its negative aspects (lust-driven, malicious, sadistic) and it's good aspects (clever, driven, ambitious) to win.


That's a very abstract way of seeing it and putting it, and Im sure Im not seeing it like this CONSCIOUSLY, but when thinking it through this look on things feels RIGHT.


But to come back to the original argument, my personal preferences dictate that a "good" NTR game that I personally enjoy both on a narrative level but also sexually is one that strikes the balance. The bull having aspects that make him superior or better or more appealing than the MC can be quite intriquing, as long as its not overdone. Overdone would be if the MC is just a pathetic depressed looser who can't do anything. In that case you'd ask yourself why the FMC fell for him in the first place. What we need is an MC who is "good" enough to potentially compete with the bull, but its not quite enough - be that because of physical limitations, circumstances or because MC didn't pay enough attention or didn't put in enough of an effort, or did so too late. That last part is the flavoring of the story then. Something that causes variety, which keeps the genre (somewhat) fresh and interesting.

Oh, absolutely. Uncompelling writing is still uncompelling writing, right?
I should've probably clarified what I meant by "more appealing" antagonists here: those who make you associate with them a lot more strongly than with protagonists. If that pulls the main focus away from the designed perspective and makes us disassociate from the protagonist, then technically we don't see it as NTR anymore, do we?

Depends how you do it I think. Rin needs to be recognizable enough for the player and at the same time just concealed enough for Keita. Its gonna be tricky.

To me, the main concern is probably that the player's mind may not be fully focused on action in such a case. Our eyes might be seeing Rin but the subconscious would be casting doubts: "But what if it's not Rin?" Kind of like the Uncanny Valley effect.

Well, if you actually want to see NTR action in your NTR AVN before the heat death of the universe, some mild use of porn logic is necessary to move the "romance" along (if it hasn't been pre-established already).

I think CH2 did a very good job of setting up the presence of romantic feelings between MC and Rin. Anything more than that is icing on the cake - but not a requirement. In the context of Aperture, we would be watching a potential wholesome romance get snubbed, which is equally appetizing IMHO.

It's a great point. Thank you for bringing it up.

What if that very issue makes developers believe they have to choose rushing content over building up quality and depth of experiences? What if it's one of the main reasons adult projects are held back from reaching their full potential, and one of the main reasons their stories and characters rarely match those of non-adult counterparts?

Here's a simple question we can ask ourselves: how many hours of direct exposure does it realistically take on average for a person to fall in love with a character? Let's recall examples from the best non-adult works. What would we get? I've suggested this before: perhaps at the very least 5 hours and if it's done really well? The more the better?

At the same time, I can completely relate to the idea that a lack of action can make it boring and frustrating. The question is: how would we resolve it? The commonly chosen solution is to sacrifice lead characters, but for what? Why should it ever be an option? As an alternative, wouldn't it be better to introduce rewards of various types and magnitudes that would fill up the space across the entire playthrough? That can be done with content featuring secondary and tertiary characters who would drive the desired action while the main heroines are developed in the story.

Can this actually work? We don't have to look far. In fact, that's how many successful games tackle the issue. The idea is the same in essence: the rewards are often divided into small short-term, moderate mid-term, and large long-term ones. For instance, if we play The Witcher 3, we don't quit it in frustration after playing for a short while and realizing it can take many tens of hours to save Ciri (one of the key plot points of the game) because there's so much other content to enjoy in the meantime, right? There are small quests and major side stories, minor NPCs and important characters, regular monsters and powerful bosses, etc.

I also share the opinion that Chapter 2 has done a really good job. I even gave it a name: "high-octane slow burn." And if this formula worked so well, why abandon it instead of doubling down on it? Do we really need to sacrifice the very things that have made Aperture so special in favor of more common, yet hackneyed and overly simplistic tropes?

 

[Htoon]

Half the people in this thread:

"Don't mind me, I'll just casually drop my dissertation here" (˶˃ ᵕ ˂˶).

 

[Ion.TemUS]

Well, if you actually want to see NTR action in your NTR AVN before the heat death of the universe, some mild use of porn logic is necessary to move the "romance" along (if it hasn't been pre-established already).

I agree on the first paragraph. Yes, let it take time. But also we cant go like a 9-12 months of development time of an h-game without any at least mild sexual things going on.

I think CH2 did a very good job of setting up the presence of romantic feelings between MC and Rin. Anything more than that is icing on the cake - but not a requirement. In the context of Aperture, we would be watching a potential wholesome romance get snubbed, which is equally appetizing IMHO.

As for this. I agree we set up a solid romance. I still wish it wasn't just over the course of 1 day. So my hope is that Von has Ch. 3 actually stretch out across more time (weeks, months) and lets us settle into the day-to-day sprinkling in developments.

You know, like a good VN from the old days, where you have days of school life and banter and characterization in between. There were some VNs that overdid it and bored you with their "slice of life" content and waited forever for any developments. But there are also those that did just enough of that. Let the "cast" grow, even if there was not a lot happening for days. The in and out of the daily routine gives you the feeling your character really settled into their life. And the best thing is it doesnt need a lot of CGs or crazy set ups for that, you can do all that with the existing backgrounds and the sprites. Funny days, weird days, frustrating days, sad days. Chapter 1 showed this game is heavily inspired by Persona. What does Persona do? exactly that. day to day, some funny stuff, some further characterizations that dont necessarily have anything to do with the main plot but advances relationships, friendships, love, learning, etc. And then BAM, big development.

That way it doesnt feel like Keita and Rin JUST met and they are already super tight. I mean that is what we had in Ch. 2 and it was good to show that this was one of those "fate" meetings where two people meet and quickly develop a bond. But now we need to slow it down with the pacing. At least at the start of Ch. 3. We need some "space". And with that I dont just mean game-time, I mean in-universe time, like we see that in the world of the game, weeks or months pass during Ch. 3.

I miss that about these games because it was the kind of game that I would play or watch a playthrough of for a solid week binge of multiple hours a day and not be bothered or bored by it. I think this is legit what a game like this is missing. Even if its maybe not as much in volume as a classic VN (because that would be too long), but I think a bit of that would be really good for the game (with the main developments and some light NTR spread across that "time" in CH.3).

Because how else are we supposed to subtly notice that "Rin is different" or she "changes" if all we can measure her by is the 2-3 days we have known her.

 

[Neryxon]

I agree on the first paragraph. Yes, let it take time. But also we cant go like a 9-12 months of development time of an h-game without any at least mild sexual things going on.

Yes, this seems to be common logic in many adult games: either we rush content with everyone, or there won't be any H-content for many hours of gameplay. Why would it need to be this way, though? As mentioned above, why not simply introduce characters with smaller roles who participate in action while more important characters are developed throughout the story?

Either way, whether we're talking about just a few minutes or a hundred hours of character development time between each scene, we still need a robust system in place to ensure that the gameplay remains both exciting and fulfilling for the player, don't we?

As for this. I agree we set up a solid romance. I still wish it wasn't just over the course of 1 day. So my hope is that Von has Ch. 3 actually stretch out across more time (weeks, months) and lets us settle into the day-to-day sprinkling in developments.

That way it doesnt feel like Keita and Rin JUST met and they are already super tight. I mean that is what we had in Ch. 2 and it was good to show that this was one of those "fate" meetings where two people meet and quickly develop a bond. But now we need to slow it down with the pacing. At least at the start of Ch. 3. We need some "space". And with that I dont just mean game-time, I mean in-universe time, like we see that in the world of the game, weeks or months pass during Ch. 3.

It does sound like a better alternative. Still, it would be far from an ideal option, wouldn't it?

If time skips could deliver comparable results and substitute character progression, why would we even need the story in the first place, right? For example, why even attempt to gradually develop the relationship between Keita and Rin when we can just skip "straight to the point," so to speak (just like many other NTR games do it)?

At the end of the day, is it really the relationship between the characters or the attachment between the player and those characters that matters the most? And how can we get it without sufficient investments, context, or time? We can't just fall in love with a character because we're told to, can we?

 

[Ion.TemUS]

It does sound like a better alternative. Still, it would be far from an ideal option, wouldn't it?

If time skips could deliver comparable results and substitute character progression, why would we even need the story in the first place, right? For example, why even attempt to gradually develop the relationship between Keita and Rin when we can just skip "straight to the point," so to speak (just like many other NTR games do it)?

At the end of the day, is it really the relationship between the characters or the attachment between the player and those characters that matters the most? And how can we get it without sufficient investments, context, or time? We can't just fall in love with a character because we're told to, can we?

I think you are misunderstanding me. I dont just want a time skip.
I want more time (than what we had so far in Ch1 and Ch2, which was like 2-3 days) to pass in Chapter 3. That doesnt mean I want us to skip over it. That being said its unreasonable to think the dev can just write plot for ... lets say 3 weeks of going to school for Keita and Rin, for the full morning, noon, evening, night cycle for every single day. And it would become boring for the players.

So what Im suggesting is what VNs used to do. Introduce a "day-to-day", skip "uneventful days" with either a full skip ("3 days later") or 1-2 dialogue lines about what you were doing those days:

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Its a good compromise that at the same time gives you a feeling of time passing but also does fill the empty space. Your imagination can fill in the rest and the "important days" are being highlighted and picked out. And sometimes the "important days" include just slice-of-life academy shenanigans or side-plots that are happening (a good side effect is Keita being distracted from Rins possible early corruption). That way you are starting to get a sense of the daily routine of Keita and Rin, a sense of the romance between the two, a sense of the friend group dynamic, more of a sense of the antagonists interacting with our group (sprinkled in here and there), a sense of the school environment in general, Rin's home environment, the city.

That is what I meant.

 

[Neryxon]

I think you are misunderstanding me. I dont just want a time skip.

I want more time (than what we had so far in Ch1 and Ch2, which was like 2-3 days) to pass in Chapter 3. That doesnt mean I want us to skip over it. That being said its unreasonable to think the dev can just write plot for ... lets say 3 weeks of going to school for Keita and Rin, for the full morning, noon, evening, night cycle for every single day. And it would become boring for the players.


So what Im suggesting is what VNs used to do. Introduce a "day-to-day", skip "uneventful days" with either a full skip ("3 days later") or 1-2 dialogue lines about what you were doing those days:

Spoiler: scene

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Its a good compromise that at the same time gives you a feeling of time passing but also does fill the empty space. Your imagination can fill in the rest and the "important days" are being highlighted and picked out. And sometimes the "important days" include just slice-of-life academy shenanigans or side-plots that are happening (a good side effect is Keita being distracted from Rins possible early corruption). That way you are starting to get a sense of the daily routine of Keita and Rin, a sense of the romance between the two, a sense of the friend group dynamic, more of a sense of the antagonists interacting with our group (sprinkled in here and there), a sense of the school environment in general, Rin's home environment, the city.


That is what I meant.

Ah, got it, I didn't think about it this way initially. I believe I made such an assumption because the next chapter is currently planned to be of about the same size as the second one, so there shouldn't be much time to flesh such scenarios out. The relationship between Keita and Rin is likely to progress at a very rapid pace, according to the latest posts I've seen.

Thank you for the idea! It could probably require changes in the flow of the story and in the gameplay? I'm not sure I've ever played anything like that myself. You mentioned Persona before. Do they repeat this structure there as well? Personally, I do certainly like this attention to slice-of-life segments, though.

I've made a suggestion regarding this on the server, too (I think it was in #story-ideas). The idea would be to continue the same approach established in the second chapter ("high-octane slow burn"). We got a bit of slice-of-life before the chapter's main storyline, which in turn introduced a lot of captivating action without rushing the overarching plot, right? (I didn't count Keita's confession, since it's something that seems to align with his personality; the ending was open-ended after all.)

So, it would be something similar: relatively short slice-of-life sections in-between main action happening over the course of in-game weeks (and maybe even months), with chapters taking around 3 hours on average to complete (I assume they could be divided into parts if such updates were to take too much time at first). That would also let the player's mind rest after going through more dynamic episodes.

Why 3 hours? There's logic behind it: that could be the length of the main gameplay loop built around the following H-scene schedule:

• 20 min (tertiary character)
• 40 min (tertiary character)
• 1 hour (secondary character)
• 1 hour 20 min (tertiary character)
• 1 hour 40 min (tertiary character)
• 2 hours (secondary character)
• 2 hours 20 min (tertiary character)
• 2 hours 40 min (tertiary character)
• 3 hours (lead character: Rin, Jun, or Noriko)

Personally, I would go for even longer than 3 hours for major characters, while sticking to the same concept, but that would probably be overkill for a VN. H-scenes with tertiary characters could then be implemented via optional POV switches for the most part to avoid breaking the flow.

That is to create space for character and story development, and for anticipation build-up, while increasing the individual value of H-scenes with the most important and attractive heroines (to quote a description of the scarcity principle: "Humans place a higher value on an object that is scarce, and a lower value on those that are in abundance.").

What do you think about it?

(That can be a fun exercise, even though we may never see something like this in the game.)

 

[Ion.TemUS]

Thank you for the idea! It could probably require changes in the flow of the story and in the gameplay? I'm not sure I've ever played anything like that myself. You mentioned Persona before. Do they repeat this structure there as well? Personally, I do certainly like this attention to slice-of-life segments, though.

I mean, I am talking about the general flow of a VN stories. From

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over

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,

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to

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. Or even

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. Some of these are horror-mystery, some are fantasy, some are slice-of-life romance. Some of them are vanilla non-h, others have sexual content. Either way though they have a similar structure.

As for Persona, Persona repeats the day-to-day sequence. You got different times of day and relative free movement within them, while doing certain things at certain times (i.e. school in the morning, clubs or city free time later, dungeon crawling in the afternoon or evening. Certain characters are available to talk to at certain times and certain weekdays. You can do activities, increase stats, etc. And you literally play every single day of the week, month and year that the game plays in. Persona is a JRPG, so its quite different from a VN or what Aperature wants to be. But the basic structure of establishing a "school routine" and having certain slice-of-life day-to-day moments and encounters reaching from comedic and weird over heartwarming and endearing to interesting and contemplative all the way to action and danger. From exploits over school trips to skipping school to do something else, from breaking the law a bit for a "good cause" or out of stupid young people immaturity or curiosity to having a real moment at the end of the day at sunset. Those basic structures and the basic idea I feel could be adopted here in some chapters in Aperature. The VN format lends itself very well to that. And it would really make our characters more alive, interesting, and get us more attached to them.

And Im mainly saying that because Aperature already FEELS like that kind of game, the way its been set up. Chapter 1 had a tiny bit of that already. Just not a whole lot. After all we needed to establish the premise first, introduce all important characters.

So, it would be something similar: relatively short slice-of-life sections in-between main action happening over the course of in-game weeks (and maybe even months), with chapters taking around 3 hours on average to complete (I assume they could be divided into parts if such updates were to take too much time at first). That would also let the player's mind rest after going through more dynamic episodes.

Why 3 hours? There's logic behind it: that could be the length of the main gameplay loop built around the following H-scene schedule:

• 20 min (tertiary character)
• 40 min (tertiary character)
• 1 hour (secondary character)
• 1 hour 20 min (tertiary character)
• 1 hour 40 min (tertiary character)
• 2 hours (secondary character)
• 2 hours 20 min (tertiary character)
• 2 hours 40 min (tertiary character)
• 3 hours (lead character: Rin, Jun, or Noriko)

Personally, I would go for even longer than 3 hours for major characters, while sticking to the same concept, but that would probably be overkill for a VN. H-scenes with tertiary characters could then be implemented via optional POV switches for the most part to avoid breaking the flow.

That is to create space for character and story development, and for anticipation build-up, while increasing the individual value of H-scenes with the most important and attractive heroines (to quote a description of the scarcity principle: "Humans place a higher value on an object that is scarce, and a lower value on those that are in abundance.").

What do you think about it?

(That can be a fun exercise, even though we may never see something like this in the game.)

Basic idea doesnt sound bad.
I wouldn't strucure it as stringently as you did here, also Im not quite sure I get 100% what you mean with the segment lising the different times (minutes, hours). Do you mean the lead character only gets 20 min of development in the Chapter (since you did all secondary and tertiary characters then from 2h40 to 3h the lead characters) ? Or is all these other listing points interactions that sometimes INCLUDE lead characters ?

I think if Von had an additional writer or two and scenes re-use already established locations (so you dont have to generate new backgounds or you only have to slightly change them via A.I. to keep a bit or variety) and already established characters for the most part (sprites are already existing), then this could be a good way to fruther pad out the story and make the world more believable and invest people more in it. Obviously Von would have to proofread side-stories and adjust certain elements to their liking, but beyond that - especially if main characters are involved in some of these stories - it just further sells the world to the player.

 

[Neryxon]

I mean, I am talking about the general flow of a VN stories. From

You must be registered to see the links

over

You must be registered to see the links

,

You must be registered to see the links

to

You must be registered to see the links

.
Or even

You must be registered to see the links

. Some of these are horror-mystery, some are fantasy, some are slice-of-life romance. Some of them are vanilla non-h, others have sexual content. Either way though they have a similar structure.

As for Persona, Persona repeats the day-to-day sequence. You got different times of day and relative free movement within them, while doing certain things at certain times (i.e. school in the morning, clubs or city free time later, dungeon crawling in the afternoon or evening. Certain characters are available to talk to at certain times and certain weekdays. You can do activities, increase stats, etc. And you literally play every single day of the week, month and year that the game plays in. Persona is a JRPG, so its quite different from a VN or what Aperature wants to be. But the basic structure of establishing a "school routine" and having certain slice-of-life day-to-day moments and encounters reaching from comedic and weird over heartwarming and endearing to interesting and contemplative all the way to action and danger. From exploits over school trips to skipping school to do something else, from breaking the law a bit for a "good cause" or out of stupid young people immaturity or curiosity to having a real moment at the end of the day at sunset. Those basic structures and the basic idea I feel could be adopted here in some chapters in Aperature. The VN format lends itself very well to that. And it would really make our characters more alive, interesting, and get us more attached to them.

And Im mainly saying that because Aperature already FEELS like that kind of game, the way its been set up. Chapter 1 had a tiny bit of that already. Just not a whole lot. After all we needed to establish the premise first, introduce all important characters.

Persona did inspire the first Chapter, whereas for the second one it was Cyberpunk 2077, so perhaps Aperture is intended to combine their various elements without necessarily leaning heavily on a high-school routine?

I'd really like to eventually play Persona myself and see how they do it there, since it's a very high-rated series (especially the last few games). One of the concerns I personally have with this is that might be quite challenging to make such regular and repetitive scenarios exciting in comparison to more action-packed plotlines (like the second Chapter). As an alternative, I thought it might be easier to integrate more down-to-earth slice-of-life moments in-between high-stake adventures.

Many adult games I've seen seem to beat around the bush a lot without providing clear goals or meaningful activities to the player. I believe it risks hurting expectations and making significant portions of gameplay feel like a chore, so it's something that would likely need to be carefully considered and designed all the way through.

 

[Ion.TemUS]

Persona did inspire the first Chapter, whereas for the second one it was Cyberpunk 2077, so perhaps Aperture is intended to combine their various elements without necessarily leaning heavily on a high-school routine?

I'd really like to eventually play Persona myself and see how they do it there, since it's a very high-rated series (especially the last few games). One of the concerns I personally have with this is that might be quite challenging to make such regular and repetitive scenarios exciting in comparison to more action-packed plotlines (like the second Chapter). As an alternative, I thought it might be easier to integrate more down-to-earth slice-of-life moments in-between high-stake adventures.

Many adult games I've seen seem to beat around the bush a lot without providing clear goals or meaningful activities to the player. I believe it risks hurting expectations and making significant portions of gameplay feel like a chore, so it's something that would likely need to be carefully considered and designed all the way through.

I mean that isnt up for debate anyway, which is why I think it makes the most sense to borrow elements of it. In this case the routine. Doesnt need to be every day, you can always skip 2-3 days and just tune in for the highlights. The important thing is that we get a sense of:

1. The main characters' routines:
> Esp. Rin and Keita: what is their academic life like? Who are their friend circles (beyond Jun/Inota)? What clubs are they participating in? What do they do in their free time (afternoon/night)? What hobbies do they have? How do they interact with people / each other?
> The side characters (Jun/Inota//Daizo Jr./Rin's mom/etc.)
> The antagonists: How does their day/week look like (less content on that end but the occasional peek into their life)

2. The general sense of time passing as we get to know our friends/schoolmates/teachers, etc.

3. The atmosphere:
> How is the school climate? What do people talk about? What do they gossip about? What are they worried about? Is there exam phases (how do they work?), are students working or are they from rich families? What are the students into these days (fashion, sports, local celebs, etc.)
> How is the city climate (just raunchy? or are there nice chill places? Where do the young people frequent in their free time? Where do the rich and influential gather?

I think that is the main point. So while weeks are passing we are getting a slice of the most prolific events. And that can be a bit of main plot progression (romance and NTR), that can be stuff happening to or with the side characters (being out in town with Inota and Jun, getting into trouble, coincidentally meeting people from school in the city (Daizo, schoolmates, other teachers) or having interactions during club activity, chasing school rumors or helping other students, having fun in class, having to cram for exams or work on a project), that can also be some quick peeks in behind-the-scenes antagonist events.

So lets say you let 1 month pass. 4 weeks. 7 days a week. That is 28 days. You can skip 2 or 3 days every few days. So you got like...... 13 days of events happening for example. Some is just a quick glimpse into one thing that happened, not more than one event. couple of pages of writing. Some is like a whole day where a lot happens. The remaining 15 days would have little short sentences covering what happened there or transitioning. Like after a day of events on Tuesday skipping the next 3 days by summarizing what happened the next 3 days and then opening back up on Saturday. For example.

 

[CAPFMfr]

Hopefully we see some more ugly guys like the gym teacher and scenes with these sexy side characters. Its the best thing to see these strong women's prideful face turing into lustful slut. Hope we see the strong angry FMC , get corrupted slowly and turn into a nympho slut with slutty expressions.

talk about degenerate.
personally, i like the story more as it is currently. the whole normal > corrupted slut thing throws me off. stories shouldnt need to be constant hentai to be good, and the story is so far going in a good direction; overall, it's very well-made and AI is being rightly used.
just my opinion, though, and you're free to disagree or counter, but i likely won't defend.

 

[Neryxon]

I mean that isnt up for debate anyway, which is why I think it makes the most sense to borrow elements of it. In this case the routine. Doesnt need to be every day, you can always skip 2-3 days and just tune in for the highlights. The important thing is that we get a sense of:


1. The main characters' routines:

> Esp. Rin and Keita: what is their academic life like? Who are their friend circles (beyond Jun/Inota)? What clubs are they participating in? What do they do in their free time (afternoon/night)? What hobbies do they have? How do they interact with people / each other?

> The side characters (Jun/Inota//Daizo Jr./Rin's mom/etc.)

> The antagonists: How does their day/week look like (less content on that end but the occasional peek into their life)


2. The general sense of time passing as we get to know our friends/schoolmates/teachers, etc.


3. The atmosphere:

> How is the school climate? What do people talk about? What do they gossip about? What are they worried about? Is there exam phases (how do they work?), are students working or are they from rich families? What are the students into these days (fashion, sports, local celebs, etc.)

> How is the city climate (just raunchy? or are there nice chill places? Where do the young people frequent in their free time? Where do the rich and influential gather?


I think that is the main point. So while weeks are passing we are getting a slice of the most prolific events. And that can be a bit of main plot progression (romance and NTR), that can be stuff happening to or with the side characters (being out in town with Inota and Jun, getting into trouble, coincidentally meeting people from school in the city (Daizo, schoolmates, other teachers) or having interactions during club activity, chasing school rumors or helping other students, having fun in class, having to cram for exams or work on a project), that can also be some quick peeks in behind-the-scenes antagonist events.


So lets say you let 1 month pass. 4 weeks. 7 days a week. That is 28 days. You can skip 2 or 3 days every few days. So you got like...... 13 days of events happening for example. Some is just a quick glimpse into one thing that happened, not more than one event. couple of pages of writing. Some is like a whole day where a lot happens. The remaining 15 days would have little short sentences covering what happened there or transitioning. Like after a day of events on Tuesday skipping the next 3 days by summarizing what happened the next 3 days and then opening back up on Saturday. For example.

I think it should actually be easy enough to implement the time-passing segments. We had some of it in the second Chapter. Remember when Keita and Rin were traveling around the Downtown District, exploring, taking photos, eavesdropping, running away from danger, etc.? That was also done in a pretty vigorous and concise manner, wasn't it?

That's where many creators I've seen seem to fall into a trap and reverse the pattern. Do you remember games that, instead of focusing on the most important story beats, dramatic dialogue, and lively action first and foremost, tend to give way more preference to exposition and filler segments? That seems to be a very common pitfall. Can the player tolerate it? Maybe. But would this be engaging?

I also believe it would be a good idea to include the things you mentioned in the other two points. Should they actually be made the main focus, or would this be enough to include them around more interesting plotlines? Chapter 2 had a lot tension, challenge, exploration, change of scenery, and so on partially because it was set in various places around the city. Here's an example of points that could describe a part of its main sequence in terms of story design:

1. Keita speaks with Rin before entering the Downtown District (transitional scene)
2. Keita and Rin try to enter the district; the guard gropes Rin (story beat)
3. Keita and Rin take a break at a cafe (transitional scene)
4. Keita makes a decision to follow Rin (story beat)
5. Keita and Rin travel around the district and take photos (story beat)
6. Keita and Rin confront Sumeragi at the club (story beat)
7. Keita leaves the VIP room and watches the performance (transitional scene)
8. Keita overhears the sounds coming from the VIP room (story beat)

(It's not exactly as straightforward, of course, because there are some smaller transitional scenes in-between as well as important beats inside transitional scenes.)

The question would then be: how could we achieve comparable or better results if we shifted the focus mostly to the academy setting? How can we make sure the player understands what this is all about, where the story is heading, and that transitional scenes serve only as support for story beats rather than as the plot's main pillars?

talk about degenerate.

personally, i like the story more as it is currently. the whole normal > corrupted slut thing throws me off. stories shouldnt need to be constant hentai to be good, and the story is so far going in a good direction; overall, it's very well-made and AI is being rightly used.

just my opinion, though, and you're free to disagree or counter, but i likely won't defend.

I think Zeref@123# would actually agree with you here. This highlights another concern that I have: what if there's actually no need to choose between one or the other, and what if great stories can be extremely lewd, enjoyable, and yet very believable, too?

 

[Zeref@123#]

talk about degenerate.
personally, i like the story more as it is currently. the whole normal > corrupted slut thing throws me off. stories shouldnt need to be constant hentai to be good, and the story is so far going in a good direction; overall, it's very well-made and AI is being rightly used.
just my opinion, though, and you're free to disagree or counter, but i likely won't defend.

Well this is a corruption game so you will get that eventually. So if you don't like corruption, you are playing the wrong game. There is nothing to debate about. The gradual fall of heroine is bound to happen and that's the plan. But the execution is the most important thing. It soon not be too soon. A slow steady process where the FMC herself questions about what she has become and can't stop since she likes it. That's a real corruption game is.

 

[Neryxon]

Well this is a corruption game so you will get that eventually. So if you don't like corruption, you are playing the wrong game. There is nothing to debate about. The gradual fall of heroine is bound to happen and that's the plan. But the execution is the most important thing. It soon not be too soon. A slow steady process where the FMC herself questions about what she has become and can't stop since she likes it. That's a real corruption game is.

The concern was probably due to how many other games tend to handle such plotlines.
It looks like the gradual and believable approaches we've discussed and described are very rare. But maybe in the future such games will become more common?

 

[Ion.TemUS]

I think it should actually be easy enough to implement the time-passing segments. We had some of it in the second Chapter. Remember when Keita and Rin were traveling around the Downtown District, exploring, taking photos, eavesdropping, running away from danger, etc.? That was also done in a pretty vigorous and concise manner, wasn't it?

That's where many creators I've seen seem to fall into a trap and reverse the pattern. Do you remember games that, instead of focusing on the most important story beats, dramatic dialogue, and lively action first and foremost, tend to give way more preference to exposition and filler segments? That seems to be a very common pitfall. Can the player tolerate it? Maybe. But would this be engaging?

I also believe it would be a good idea to include the things you mentioned in the other two points. Should they actually be made the main focus, or would this be enough to include them around more interesting plotlines? Chapter 2 had a lot tension, challenge, exploration, change of scenery, and so on partially because it was set in various places around the city. Here's an example of points that could describe a part of its main sequence in terms of story design:

1. Keita speaks with Rin before entering the Downtown District (transitional scene)
2. Keita and Rin try to enter the district; the guard gropes Rin (story beat)
3. Keita and Rin take a break at a cafe (transitional scene)
4. Keita makes a decision to follow Rin (story beat)
5. Keita and Rin travel around the district and take photos (story beat)
6. Keita and Rin confront Sumeragi at the club (story beat)
7. Keita leaves the VIP room and watches the performance (transitional scene)
8. Keita overhears the sounds coming from the VIP room (story beat)

(It's not exactly as straightforward, of course, because there are some smaller transitional scenes in-between as well as important beats inside transitional scenes.)

The question would then be: how could we achieve comparable or better results if we shifted the focus mostly to the academy setting? How can we make sure the player understands what this is all about, where the story is heading, and that transitional scenes serve only as support for story beats rather than as the plot's main pillars?

Yea, I mean. Mostly agree with your thoughts here.
The interesting thing to highlight is that the separation is of course not all that clear.
Transitional Scenes are often simultaneously story beats or help to underline them.
So naturally we shouldn't assume that "transitional scene" means "less important", because its not.
Perfect example is the cafe break. It was so excellent in establishing Rin's more vulnerable side. Until that point we had seen her 99% stoic and poker-faced. She has been pretty "strong" and "serious". And now we suddenly see her relaxed, self-conscious, embarrassed. This single scene turned her from a "character" into a "human" within the narrative. Her facade was breaking here, she was self-conscious about her choice of drink cause it doesn't match her "tough" exterior image - or maybe even self-image. Embarrassed to be observed by a handsome and nice guy she vibes with doing something "uncool" or "unfitting for the person she is supposed to be".

So these scenes are anything but unimportant, even if they are "transitional scenes" and don't necessarily do anything to advance the main NTR-plotline. After all, they don't just build her character and make the locations feel more real, they also build the romance between the two.

I think one thing we can do to maybe look at why Ch. 2 worked so well is to take it apart and look how we can separate the different parts of it into sections depending on what they relate to (kind of how you did in your example, but for the whole chapter), and maybe also look at Ch. 1 - which was weaker than Ch. 2 but still great - because Ch. 1 relates a lot to the school context. And then maybe try and reverse engineer this for Ch. 4 and onwards to see how the structure can be improved for good world-/character-building and enjoyment. We could do it for Ch. 3 first to be fair, because we dont know how Ch. 4 will be if we do not know the content of Ch. 3, so Ch. 3 is the only thing we can really "predict" if you want. But I think for actual impact on Ch. 3 we are too late at this point. We'll have to see what Von cooked up and then go from there once Ch. 3 is out. But as a hypothetical, and maybe as a blueprint for subsequent chapters, this could be an interesting thought experiment.

 

[bbbray]

When update?

 

[Ion.TemUS]

When update?

When it's ready.
(realistic guess probably March or April)