I reconize that I use hard pause too much, during dialog and all, and most of the time that's not really necessary. But yes, sometimes I think it is. It's allow me to control how some screen/effect are displaying, or let them having the time to operate properly without taking the risk of an unwanted input.
Moreove, I'm not like he says upper; thinking that "I know what's the player want better than himself" by imposing to them a pause or something, since whatever I do the player can still quickly skip those part, using the fast forward mod, just by pressing left control key or tab, which is overiding the hard pause function.
Thank you Sancho for this insight and explanations.
- Jul 21, 2018
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I disagree, it'll only possibly fuck up certain games where their developer abuses pause to the point users go out of their way to add the RPY. Developers should change their behaviors and correctly code, otherwise RPYs like this wouldn't be necessary in the first place.
My mentioning that "It should work in any/all R'games..." was strictly qualifying it to functionally affect any/all R'games, not that it should be recommended. It's the end user's (and mostly developers at fault) problem if they break something for using it without knowing how it all works, though I'll mention it is undoable. I know people forget, most end-users are absolute dunces about code/development in general. My RPYs are meant to save fellow developers and intermediate users time around enabling console and patching every run. As for its potential to bombard VN devs about their game, I'm glad for that. Pause (hard) can truly fuck off, along with transitions and dialog text tags (at all the wrong moments...like this one). No VN *needs* that if wrote correctly, aside from an inventory *SINGLE MOMENT*, such as in this VN or saving stuff, such as your mods or for cinematic moments (developers need to keep that very short). It's fine that it happens maybe 100 times tops in a VN of great caliber, for those real use moments. But this author...it is frustrating to be swamped by my regulars that ask me to mod stuff and it's almost always the same damn thing. I'm probably going to write up a script to strip {w...} tags, even, to prevent multiple frames.
I definitely get what you mean about idiots, though. But I'd rather sling napalm about pause being so abused and force developers to stop using it. Painful bandaid rip, I know.
...Pause literally warns you to stop trying to control that aspect, it's in the code comments even. Rollback fixes unwanted input, let it happen. Game logic should be designed to work with rollback in Ren'Py games. Only anti-cheat-types and/or DRM-lovers fight rollback. You actually are thinking you know better than the player when you're forcing things this way. It's an easy thing to best-intentions bull-doze through, I'm sure you intend all the best. But no, holding Control is not a solution by any means. That's an extra burden to attempt to undo some unnecessary burden in the first place. It still doesn't alleviate dialog text tag pauses from extra frames. It's an accessibility nightmare.
Granted, overriding pause this way is an overkill RPG/close-range shotgun blast to what could easily be fixed by the developer, but I hope it rips the bandaid quickly and cleanly, seems to be the only way to get developers to stop abusing pause so badly, or adding those horrible dialog text tags like {w}, for example. They're not meant to be used like...this. Cinematic moments...that is what makes it a cinematic moment. Whole VN? That's no different than Diablo/WOW grinding.
But I don't want to sound mean, just desperate to stop the abuse. I wish all the luck to the success of every developer..that's kinda why this. Cheers, though.
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- Jan 19, 2020
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Well, now I have to completely disagree regarding transitions, bottom line. Transitions are the bedrock of scene migration and tempo. Well-produced movies and shows do it constantly and (when done properly) the user doesn't even notice the effect... but they would notice if the scene changes were instantly abrupt without the transitions... that's the point really of using them. There is not one movie you've ever watched that you thought was near perfect that doesn't use transitions by the shit-ton. Same with VN's imho... but I agree they must be timed perfectly and their duration evaluated on a per uses basis (which is what can be very difficult for novice developers especially when choosing between dissolves and fades... which are two completely different effects).
I can't even begin to mention the amount of rookie devs I've worked many hours with that had zero transitions in their VN's which resulted in a very shitty experience for the end user. After time of correctly implementing them at the exact correct moments and duration their VN's became transformed into much more professional products in regards to presentation.
Just my two cents on transitions.
- Jul 21, 2018
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They're not making a movie. They're making a VN, different medium. "doesn't even notice the effect" ... nail on the head, holy ... it is the most obvious thing here. People expect VNs to change frame by frame, that's Ren'Py's nature. Transitions are for cinematic moments, not the entire VN...they're far too slower and off-timing. And again, this isn't a movie. Perhaps this is the wrong engine and medium to be working with? Zero transitions = most preferred by everyone freaking bugging me to fix other VNs all the time. Perhaps the option to 100% disable transitions and pauses and dialog text tags is necessary...ah, it's in the code, to not force it on people. The developers of Ren'Py itself are even stating it in the distributable code of Ren'PY...that kinda hits it home for me. What you call professional is a matter of taste. Granted, they can do all you like with their VN and you with your mods, of course, it's a GPL-licensed engine. I'm apparently just advocating for some end players across a bunch of VNs that in their opinion and my own are abusing pause. *shrug* That RPY is a pushback against it..a rather strong one (destructive to some games without additional patches). Kinda says something about pausing hard.
Ren'Py even uses an environmental variable (
RENPY_LESS_PAUSES) that can be set system-wide or user-wide to affect ALL Ren'Py games while retaining compatibility (sets dialog text tag time to 0, but doesn't affect those horrible pause hards for UI-compatibility reasons)...that's a big statement to the need for end-users to be able to work around pause/transition/tag abuse. Granted, their approach attempts to keep compatibility in games, but it makes me wonder if they maybe would have liked to go further but were forced to keep compatibility...strong indicators against abuse.Edit: Changed context, forgot who I was addressing for the moment, thought the author. Multitasking.
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- Jan 19, 2020
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Again, not when used correctly. When they are they're a massive improvement.
Even Tom's RenPy tutorials use them in every single scene change.
So, the creator of the engine obviously believe they are integral in use.
There is no Eileen seen without a transition (yes, it's a joke, but it's also true).
Ok now, play nice with me... don't take me out of context. I fully wrote that they would, in fact, notice if they were not there... that's the point. Abrupt scene image changes without the minimum of one-quarter to one-half second resolves are amateur at best, and makes for a very shitty user experience.
Testing case: Take any VN, any of them and remove ALL of the transitional dissolves, fades, swipes, etc and you now have a crappy VN. It's no different then stopping a song instantly then instantly starting the next with no fadeout/fadein. It's the same thing really.
But that's all fine, we all have opinions. Mine is based that the most rookie of VN's that have zero transitions are the worst looking VN's any end user can possibly attempt to enjoy. It's like reading a book with one word per page before you turn to the next page... there's no flow, no tempo, no production value.
I'll concede though that you and I are stubborn in our beliefs and have both gotten so far off topic that we now both are at risk of having this rather civil debate (thank you for that btw) removed by a power-hungry overlord.
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Tutorial, as in they're trying to show how they can be used, not how often. I don't get the Eileen thing, but I've already said that transitions and hard pauses can be useful and used, absolutely...but you ignored the fact that it's literally in the code warning developers not to abuse it. You call a lack of transition amateur, I call it practical, functional, usable. Transitions irritate me and slow me down from content-scanning. It's like being forced to read at a pre-K level of speed. Your test case does nothing to make any point, you're only exclaiming your opinion. You do know that track-fading is optional, yes? I make music, I don't rely on it when it isn't needed. Simply playing songs back, I don't use it. I hate how radios fade between tracks, it's annoying an off-beat. Opinion. But we're talking about VNs. There's a level of accessibility that needs addressing in VNs due to their nature. Being only to read a tiny sentence and then *wait* while it fades away and another fades in, blurred image the entire time, is extremely no-action. You can't literally do anything while waiting for a transition. It's like only being able to drink a drop at a time versus at your own pace your own choice of volume. Infuriating, to some, like some stupid long strip-tease for people that need an adult-related aid on following what I mean. Perhaps you desire or process VNs at slower paces, fine, that's a recommended user-accessibility, love the fact that you can have that, but others need faster, user-controlled experienced. Others...are entirely against such forced slow interactions. Some developers use it just to make a VN appear longer than it is. That too, is annoying. Just mentioning as a side-note, not directed at this thread's game's author(s).
I don't think it's entirely off-topic, there is an issue with this game for some people to the point a rather strongly-hard-limiting RPY had to be suggested, but I'll walk away too, got more games to fix for others and I don't do well multitasking.
TLDR: No issue with dialog text tags, pauses, or transitions. Forced, and slow? Some people have issues with that. Those are facts. Opinion: I find it unprofessional to force it and find those things unprofessional of a game. Those are typically last-round decoration for a game. One last fact: They should be user-controlled ultimately, it's for their experience.
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Sancho1969 and BupoTiling03-Retired that's an interesting debate!
But at this point I guess It's almost a philosophical question about player perception in interactive games and how you view this medium yourself.
Apparently, those who regard these pause and transitions as an abject and horrible thing may be those who see NVs as books or comics. An image, a text, that's all.
But I'm no longer part of this clan. Because yes, I consider it's better when the game try to be as dynamic as possible. And the closer it is to a film (movement, sounds, effects) the more immersive it is. This is especially the case when there are many free roam and sandbox parts in the game.
I give a simple example : The player finds himself in a basement and decides to go out to explore the world. He is therefore facing the image of the basement and the following image will be that of the outside world. Putting at that moment, when he leaves the basement, a black fade with a sound of footsteps echoing down the stairs, in my opinion, adds a highly immersive and realistic element to the scene. Because the player has the impression of climbing the stairs himself and this brings a special notion to his adventure. If he immediately went from the image of the basement to the image of the outside world in half a second, it would be as if he had just turned the page of a comic strip to read the rest of the adventure but not to play the rest the adventure.
But at this point I guess It's almost a philosophical question about player perception in interactive games and how you view this medium yourself.
Apparently, those who regard these pause and transitions as an abject and horrible thing may be those who see NVs as books or comics. An image, a text, that's all.
But I'm no longer part of this clan. Because yes, I consider it's better when the game try to be as dynamic as possible. And the closer it is to a film (movement, sounds, effects) the more immersive it is. This is especially the case when there are many free roam and sandbox parts in the game.
I give a simple example : The player finds himself in a basement and decides to go out to explore the world. He is therefore facing the image of the basement and the following image will be that of the outside world. Putting at that moment, when he leaves the basement, a black fade with a sound of footsteps echoing down the stairs, in my opinion, adds a highly immersive and realistic element to the scene. Because the player has the impression of climbing the stairs himself and this brings a special notion to his adventure. If he immediately went from the image of the basement to the image of the outside world in half a second, it would be as if he had just turned the page of a comic strip to read the rest of the adventure but not to play the rest the adventure.
Just don't put you dick in her mouth as soon as you find hernot even edit multi mod can stop jessica suicide... hm
You can play this scene for fun but you should choose the nice option to preserve her mind (don't abuse her) if you want her to stay alive at this point. Just can afford to do thoses two differents path viable right at the begining of the game. So just reassure her for now, there is plenty of time later to play with her little body
As a player, there are arguments for both sides.
The problem with transitions/noises/videos, is that in a VN, where the vast majority of time is spent on still pictures, many people will end up clicking/pushing enter/space, and bork the video, or be annoyed if it's unsinkable, because it adds nothing to the story at all, and most of time rollback to see if we actually missed anything important in the animation/video/transition.
When you get a lot of them, or if they queue each others too often, it gets extremely annoying.
One example of those, are the knocking sound of doors in quite a few sandbox games. When looking for an objective, you can get so many of them sounds in a row, because you're looking at things to do and so on, it simply gets on my tits.
While they can also be good, they do need to be used in moderation, or it simply becomes a major annoyance, at last for me.
Personally, I do not recommend them for "normal repeatable actions", like going up stairs, going outside, changing rooms etc. Otherwise, we just end up with a series of transition when moving rooms, and it's simply annoying.
Sandbox games, unless they are absolutely not visual novels, really should not have many, if any transitions in my opinion.
It remains a VN, it's not a movie. A vn is closer to a comic book, than it is to a movie, I mean, it is in the name visual novel. While some will probably argue that visual can mean movies/animations as well, sure, but how many visual novels you know off have more animations than still pictures? Aside from some made exclusively in 3D (unity and unreal mostly), it's extremely uncommon, and as you'll know, most of those, are not really considered visual novels, but RPGs.
Bottom line at the end of the day: it's your game, your project. You do what you feel is right. If we like it, we'll tell you, if we don't, we'll tell you as well
KhaiFirst
Well-Known Member
- Feb 27, 2021
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is Apocalypse Lover... not babysitter puppy gameJust don't put you dick in her mouth as soon as you find her
You can play this scene for fun but you should choose the nice option to preserve her mind (don't abuse her) if you want her to stay alive at this point. Just can afford to do thoses two differents path viable right at the begining of the game. So just reassure her for now, there is plenty of time later to play with her little body
- Jul 21, 2018
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I think you overestimate immersion techniques. It's also not about philosophy...it's about the *fact* that it irritates some players because it is a forced (and to *them* negative) experience. Not really immersive, feels like you're being held back against experiencing things in the way you want to as a player.
- Jan 19, 2020
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Your opinions are not invalid, that's for sure. Most all end users would agree on abuse of hard pauses.
But (this is important now) regarding transitions you are in a very small minority. Most all end users desire and expect the "v" in "VN" to actually represent visuals in all their properly and aesthetically sequenced glory, otherwise they'd simply read a novel ( [humor] or in the case of AVNs, they'd reach for dad's smut magazines [/humor] ). Again, that doesn't make your opinion any less valid than mine or anyone else's (of course), but to say that transitions between sequenced scenes aren't one of the most important visual effects for immersion is highly debatable at best.
Electronic sequential visual media of every single type all use them: console games, motion pictures of all categories (movies, documentaries, cartoons, music videos, media site clips, etc et al), business and informational presentations (PowerPoint, etc), screensavers (folks actually still use those things), eReaders for static novels (kindle, nook, kobo, etc), laser light shows, on and on. This particular point is just not truly debatable. Hieroglyphics don't count though imho, they are accepted as a transformation of language, not a visual "media"... and certainly not electronic, so we have to draw the line somewhere.
Regarding me reflecting that your take on transitions is an extreme minority viewpoint, I could list thousands of examples but let's go with just one of the most celebrated and successful VN franchises of all time (Myst) which uses transitions (hell man, they all do) and that was released some thirty years ago. Are those literally double-digit millions of end users irritated due to the use of transitions? Virtual bet: dollars to doughnuts not a single one of them ever brought it up.
Again, it doesn't make your opinion invalid or inferior in any way, but that's my case for the true majority for what it's worth.
michel.gellar7
Active Member
- Nov 1, 2018
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Hello there!
I've been replying the game latelay (new save) and I have a bug that makes me stuck :/
The hud disapear at some point and there is no way to progress.
For exemple, when I need to select an item for an action, I can't since the inventory button disapear with the rest of the hud.
Is there a bug patch ?
I've been replying the game latelay (new save) and I have a bug that makes me stuck :/
The hud disapear at some point and there is no way to progress.
For exemple, when I need to select an item for an action, I can't since the inventory button disapear with the rest of the hud.
Is there a bug patch ?
- Jan 19, 2020
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That search bar is a real bitch, ain't it? Answered many times but a few posts above yours as well here for example.
.... in other news, I'm finally at that dreaded "G" screen Explore event coding. Never fear, the UI works correctly in the mod regardless. That said, thank you RtS for giving me a prior problem that I face yet again here... damn MiniStat in the way:
Resolved on hover:
And since SanchoMod already takes the "G" key for itself, I offer:
... and yes, since I allow you an alternative way to turn QA menu On/Off at will I've insured it's auto-On when absolutely needed... even in the prior Inventory events. That's how we roll.
Edit: -Awake-, you should do this to. For example at this location (in case the Player has the UI Off):
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dude check the codes because i really tried everything and nothing is working i keep geting «Wrong patreon code» and i did the thing that you said : 06660 to 18; and 36663 for +18 and still i get wrong patreon code pleaseeee help dude i would love to play the game