RoadWulf

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Nov 18, 2018
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It boils down to this:
You are in control of your actions.
You are not in control of the MC's mind.
You are not in control of the story.
You are not in control of the world or anyone else in it unless the option is given to be.

Incidentally, Kthulian has been reading all of this and has chosen not to reply to you and after this, I'm now finished too.
Constructive criticism only is constructive if it doesn't ask you to change the premise of the plot.
 
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Kadajko

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Oct 28, 2021
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No, I actually listen to most people when they talk. And when they actually know what the fuck they're talking about in the game. You want a game where it's possible to only be with Mida, only think about Mida, only dream about Mida and never have anything happen outside of your control whether it goes against the plot of the game or not.
No, that was never my point, I stated COUNTLESS times, that the game is good regardless. Lets try to have a civil discussion, I am writting essays, not to shit on the game, but because I care. Otherwise I would just leave a ''this game sucks'' comment and move along.

I like non-monogamous games TOO. I just prefer monogamy if I am offered the choice. And the writing of this game TEASED me with the possibility of monogamy many times before it was revealed that it is not possible. All those choices where MC is allowed to say: ''No, I have a girlfriend.'' Followed by MC cheating without a choice.

That's not this game.
That is cool. Just understand that the choices that YOU offer the player make it seem like complete opposite of that, until you make it clear later that it is not that kind of game. YOU offered these choices to the player.

It is like if a game offered the player a CHOICE to comment on girls feet a few times and to say that they were into feet and the girls would tease them with their feet. And then much later in the game in one of the scenes a girl would tease MC with her feet and the MC would canonically reply that he is not into feet and ask her to stop and no footplay or footjobs would ever appear in the game.

No consensual sex happens outside of your control, so Kthu didn't lie.
Besides MC getting raped? Sure, no consensual sex happens outside of dreams.

No relationships happen outside of your control. No sharing scenes happen outside of your control.
Sure, but cheating happens, because MC is in a whole bunch of emotional affairs and kisses girls left and right. Again, please understand what is happening with Isabella, I will post this again, read it, try to understand:
In the tavern Isabella tries to kiss you and you can deny the kiss. Later in the village she tries to kiss MC again, we can deny her again, but she kisses MC anyway - sexual assault, I know it's rofl, but it is what it is. Later in the tent she tries to kiss MC AGAIN, and here comes the very WEIRD part, you can deny her only by telling her that is because you think she is your sister, because of course MC is a horndog and would only deny her because he is not cool with incest, not because he has a GF. And then the FOURTH time MC kisses her himself. So we started out with just being able to deny her, went to being able to deny her but she ignores that and kisses MC anyway, to NOT being able to deny her at all and MC just kisses her himself, cheating on his GF.

My problem here is WHY did you let me NOT kiss her the first time? WHY did you let me NOT kiss her the second time? If in the end they still kiss. What was the point of teasing the player with a CHOICE to not kiss her?

If you like the game, you like the game. That's all there is to it. You can't then turn around and say that find the plot of the game and crucial storytelling parts of the game being out of your control as being bad. Any game that lets you decide 100% of how the story turns out is bad.
I like the game, but are all those random kisses with a bunch of characters crucial if you don' enter into a relationship with them? Are the rape scenes crucial and the story would suffer if the player broke out of mind control before that happened? I have zero complaints about the main story, make that adventure whatever you like, but these things are not even mentioned in the game later.

Did the Kat scene have to happen? Yes, because the mushrooms are joke device that come up a lot. Did you have to fuck her? No.
But you did fuck her, oral sex is sex.

Did the Cari scene have to happen? Yes. Why? Because it was a plot device that led to a bad ending. If you give in and let go, it's a game over. That's the whole point. It's a succubus trying to corrupt you and make you give over to the devils early in the game. I'm sorry that a (then) villain tried to do something plot related to you outside of your control, but that's just how things go.
Sure, that is fine, I would even go as far as to say that things with kissing is more destructive to the relationship than outright getting raped by a demon forcefully, because all those kisses are consensual.

Mida only has sex with Fannay and Lili on the Rebel Path. She's part of Bredita's group, she's being corrupted even if it's not by you. So no, she doesn't have any corruption points but you chose the corrupt path, so that happens. But you don't have to LET it happen. So again, it's within your control.
I know I don't have to do those paths, I never let those scenes happen on main playthrough. The fact that she is so eager is what is strange but sure.

Mida shares you with Koneko because, as I stated earlier, the Mushrooms come into play. Kat's alcohol she serves at the party is spiked with it. Mida and Koneko both drink it and get horny. Mida's lustful side takes over and you have the threesome with them. (if you choose to). But afterwards, there is no lasting relationship with Koneko if you don't want there to be and Mida never brings it up again. If you turn them down, Mida does stuff with her (again under the influence of the drugged alcohol) but it never gets brought up again. It's not like she's having an affair, it's entirely possible she doesn't even remember it.
Ok, fair enough.

Yes, the MC is a horndog, he's always been a horndog since he was 10, snuck out of Kat's room and watched Kat and Ayna in the bath in one of the very first scenes of the game. I mean, what did you think you were getting into exactly?
No but.. You see what I mean though... when that happens YOU give the player a choice to LEAVE instead of staying and watching! That is the overarching theme of my argument. You give the player a choice to NOT be a horndog but later make him canonically horndog.

If you gave me NO choices I would shut up straight way, it just has to do with this illusion of choice in these things.

I'm sorry that you feel like this game doesn't let you play the way you want to play, but this is just going to be outside your control and it isn't going to change.
I like the game anyway, like I said I can enjoy a good fuckboy too, I just PREFER monogamy if it is possible.

So you like the game, good. Keep playing it if you feel that way. If you want a solo ending with Mida, it's in the cards. But things are going to happen in the plot that you don't have control over and there's nothing you can do about it.
I will continue to enjoy the game as a non-monogamous game. like I said the game is good.

PS: I am witting words in bold not because I am screaming but when I want to emphasize the words, I just got used to doing it instead of using italics. So I am calm, I am not raging, lol. Some people get the idea from bolded words..
 
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JJJ84

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Cool, and it is unfortunate when writers do now want to acknowledge any criticism, in this case very constructive criticism.

My points summed up very narrowly is:
1) Game is good. I like the game. I can play the game even if monogamy is not included, as I play all sorts of games, which I stated countless times.
2) The game teases the player with a possibility of monogamy with the choices that it offers but doesn't follow through on delivering it. That is deceiving.
3) If the game was a kinetic novel that didn't offer any choices I would shut the fuck up.

That is it.



Sure, and MC likes women. See where I am going with this? Just cuz you like something doesn't mean you are considering to swing in your relationship with maxed out love.
Because what you're saying, is not constructive criticism?
RoadWulf has pretty much explained every single step (especially with his last post above) how to several of those situations can be avoided, and some are just there for story based reasons, and not avoidable.

So a solo-Mida ending will indeed possible.
Anything other than story based scenes with no control (like that Carielle scene, it's done cause one of the branches lead to a bad ending), the player is given the choice to avoid it if it is within control (like with Mida and Fannay).
 

Kadajko

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I know, right? What is it with people trying to pass off one thing and wrap it around as another thing.
lol I'm getting total deja vu from The DeLuca Family thread :HideThePain:
What is it with people going for personal attacks, attempts to frame the argument as insincere, attempts to shut people up instead of actually acknowledging the argument? You would say ANYTHING just to not acknowledge the argument: ''This is a troll'', ''He is just trying to pass off one thing as another'', ''he just wants the game to cater to his wishes.'' ANYTHING instead of actually dismantling the argument, which should be easy if the argument is not valid.
 
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Lordfugi

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I have to !! download part Ataegina 1 to play part 2 what a brain huge nonsense

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RoadWulf

if you have something to say, please say it

Why do you have to download the same game twice to play it? That means I downloaded Ataegina II to see that I can't start it. It means I have to download Ataegina I and then play Ataegina II
 
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JJJ84

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Something which I'd love to see, but I guess in the end it would depend on what Kthulian, RoadWulf and the writers team for Ataegina decides.

At least one solo-adventure with Ayna (yup, solo. So just Ayna).

We've seen Ayna a lot during our time with Act 1 and Act 2 in this game, but a lot of times we see her either;

- Be in a discussion or meetings with other Elites in the College
- In her room or in the baths in the College
- Be somewhere going around venturing with Bredita (as a duo)

Would be really nice to see her be on a questline just with the MC.
We've already had this with couple of characters (below are ones I can remember);

- Katriona
- Cerea
- Yotul
- Isabella


Just something that came into my mind, given Ayna showed MC her dragon when he asks her about it, how about an event which MC shows Ayna his dragon as part of her arc?
Cause from what I remember, I don't think any of the Elites have seen MC's dragon yet.
She showed him her dragon, so it would be a good payoff of her meeting MC's dragon.
And who knows, they might go dragon riding together, heh.


But, I guess it will be something Kthulian and RoadWulf decides whether it is in the cards or not (if not, it is what it is).
Plus, even if a solo-adventure with Ayna happens, I'm sure it would be better than what I came up with, heh.
 

crabsinthekitchen

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I have to !! download part Ataegina 1 to play part 2 what a brain huge nonsense

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RoadWulf

if you have something to say, please say it

Why do you have to download the same game twice to play it? That means I downloaded Ataegina II to see that I can't start it. It means I have to download Ataegina I and then play Ataegina II
because they are not the same? you play Act 1, it ends, Act 2 starts where Act 1 ended and doesn't have Act 1 (or it would've been like 12GB). or do you watch TV shows out of order too? while having default start for act 2 would've been nice, I can't actually remember any renpy AVN that would do that and there are more than a few that are split into different games
 

Kthulian

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Absolutely, no problem, here is a full list of scenes I didn't like on my attempted monogamous playthrough and I will make it actually extensive, some might seem super cringe, others will be very serious. I will divide it into two categories:


Not SUPER serious but still very bad, because I consider ALL of this cheating as well, if you think it is not imagine your GF doing this with another dude and you would call it NTR very fast:
1) In the tavern Isabella tries to kiss you and you can deny the kiss. Later in the village she tries to kiss MC again, we can deny her again, but she kisses MC anyway - sexual assault, I know it's rofl, but it is what it is. Later in the tent she tries to kiss MC AGAIN, and here comes the very WEIRD part, you can deny her only by telling her that is because you think she is your sister, because of course MC is a horndog and would only deny her because he is not cool with incest, not because he has a GF. And then the FOURTH time MC kisses her himself. So we started out with just being able to deny her, went to being able to deny her but she ignores that and kisses MC anyway, to NOT being able to deny her at all and MC just kisses her himself, cheating on his GF.
2) He is completely chill Isabela sucking his dick in a dream.
3) He lets Lust kiss him.
4) He lets Princess Enainia kiss him and he almost has sex with her and the dialogue choice that makes him not do it he feels like he really wants to and has a kiss with her again. Not in the super serious category because it is a dream.
5) Kisses the librarian when he is back at college and he lets her.
6) Ayna kisses MC before battle with Gluttony and he lets her without objection.
7) Tenizha and another girl proposition themselves to MC and his decline is: ''Maybe next time'' As if he is a regular visitor to prostitutes. I never used prostitute services.

Very serious:
1) MC gets properly raped by Carilielle at the church. Not cool. I don't mind rape in games, I really don't. But I am not fond of MC getting raped, specially when I am trying to do a monogamous playthrough.
2) MC and Katriona giving each other oral under the influence of spores. This is another outright sex with someone who is not his GF that you can't avoid.
3) Mother has sex with MC and he goes along with it enthusiastically, and I got a strong impression that in this case it was not a dream. Keep in mind you allowed MC to deny sex in dreams before ( if this is a dream ) with Enainia, why is this one forced?

Side note:
In general MC is a complete horndog, I REALLY dislike how he constantly talks about girls being hot and not being able to resist them in his thoughts. Let the PLAYER decide who MC finds hot, don't make him a canon horndog if you want wholesome relationships to be possible. Because when MC is drooling over every girl it is cringe. Because every time a girl flirts with him or touches him, or is nude near him or kisses him he is like: ''Omg, she is so hot... I.. I..'' etc. And he is completely docile every time someone wants to have his way with him in a dream or otherwise just letting the girls touch his dick however they please and do with him whatever they want, how he is completely chill with girls just getting into the bath with him when he is naked. Sometimes feels like I am playing a slut simulator with a male MC. You might think this is nonsensical but again, imagine you have a love interest in a game like this and she is cool with other dudes beside MC kissing her, having wet dreams about them, being naked around other dudes when they get into the bath with her, constantly drooling about other dudes in her mind etc. Even if she is not outright fucking them, you would still call in NTR wouldn't you? Well when you are trying to do a monogamous playthrough it is just as bad just from the other side.

Side note about Mida:
What the hell happened to Mida throughout the whole game IF you don't ask her to be more slutty during tavern sex and don't raise her Corruption at all. She starts the game by telling Fanny to leave her alone when Fanny hits on her in the beginning if you leave her to her own devices, but later becomes super enthusiastic about sharing the player out of nowhere. Asks the player to take virginity of Koneko and is open to sharing. Why? What is the point of corruption at all? I had maximized love and zero in corruption. What is the point of these corruption points if my GF is going to be a cuckqueen regardless? Why isn't she monogamous and protective of the MC at zero corruption and max love? Though this is more relevant to ACT 2 where she becomes PROPER sharing / cuckqueen no matter your previous choices, because nothing is more romantic than your GF who you tried having a monogamous relationship with conjuring illusions of other naked girls who are not her in the bedroom, right after you denied having a foursome with them.

This is the summary of ACT 1.

Final side note: I don't think you will actually change any of that, it is too much effort only for a few people like myself that actually enjoy monogamous relationships, and just to make it clear, this is a good game, this game is very good as a fuckboy simulator. Just something for you to maybe keep in mind going forward when you make dialogues in your future projects, as a lot of these things are super easy to avoid: ''MC says no, you skip, doesn't effect the story, boom done.'' And ask MC before all the groping and kissing and nakedness starts.
I will answer this one since it was the first comment after mine, the following ones seem like more of the same so answering this one will have to suffice:

So first of all, when someone types "NTR" on a comment is automatically a red flag for me, that discussion has happened many times in the past and I'm tired of it, that's one of the reasons my active time on f95 has decreased.

Second, the game is about (MC) not his girlfriend or any other character, and just like in real life you can control your actions not the actions of others, whatever that means.

Now, the not serious stuff you mentioned.

1) Sexual assault in medieval-ish times, I wouldn't consider a girl kissing you that, but I understand your point. Do you have the choice to not kiss her yourself though?

2) It's a dream.
3) It's a dream. (I think it's the scene you point out)
4) It's a dream.
5) I need to check this one because I'm not sure what do you mean.
6) (MC) is surprised by it, he is not quite sure of what happens or why she kisses him, but we can imagine that it was because it could be their last day alive.
7) "Maybe next time" is a even more polite way to say "No thanks".

Very serious:
1) It's not MC fault, if you are raped in real life, is it your fault? Can you choose not to be raped? If your GF/Wife is raped is it NTR? Will you dump her because she cheated on you with the rapist(s)?
2) True, but if you are drugged and abused or something similiar you can't be responsible for your actions right?
3) It's a dream.

Just like in real world you can't control everything about it, or any of it if we think about it.

MC is a horndog fuck boy: I'm not even sure of what that means, but I can tell you that when I was his age in real life (and almost every other guy I knew) a hot girl could cause unwanted and involuntary body reactions on my part :oops:

About Mida, she has her own personality she is not yours to control, same for any character (Unless you can mind control them but that's a total different point) she grows older and more experienced in life, like it would be in real life, she's naturally a lesbian but for "reasons" MC is different to her.

Thank you for your words and for playing the game, I do enjoy criticism when it's due, and I respect opinions. Trust me, I'm one of those people that believes anyone should be able to say whatever they want as long as it's not a direct threat to others, as everyone should be ready to hear whatever anyone else has to say. That would solve a lot of the world issues.


I have to !! download part Ataegina 1 to play part 2 what a brain huge nonsense


Why do you have to download the same game twice to play it? That means I downloaded Ataegina II to see that I can't start it. It means I have to download Ataegina I and then play Ataegina II
You have to download Act I and play until the end. Then you have to download Act II and continue to play the game. (You can even delete Act I after this if you want) I'm not sure what's nonsensical about it :unsure:
 

Kadajko

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1) Sexual assault in medieval-ish times, I wouldn't consider a girl kissing you that, but I understand your point. Do you have the choice to not kiss her yourself though?
No you don't, you can deny her 2 times, third time she kisses MC, fourth time MC kisses her himself without a choice.

5) I need to check this one because I'm not sure what do you mean.
Just that, that librarian and MC kiss consensually.

6) (MC) is surprised by it, he is not quite sure of what happens or why she kisses him, but we can imagine that it was because it could be their last day alive.
Fair enough, just sounded from dialogue like he really enjoyed it.

7) "Maybe next time" is a even more polite way to say "No thanks".
Fair enough.

1) It's not MC fault, if you are raped in real life, is it your fault? Can you choose not to be raped? If your GF/Wife is raped is it NTR? Will you dump her because she cheated on you with the rapist(s)?
2) True, but if you are drugged and abused or something similiar you can't be responsible for your actions right?
3) It's a dream.
Fair enough, I guess if MC is raped, drugged and abused then it is not cheating. I guess I would like it more if that was optional, but it is your creative freedom. I got that you hate it when people mention NTR, just that for me the dislike of unwanted sexual acts of MC is in a way similar to my perception of NTR when it comes to monogamy. Basically I think that a monogamous relationship can be damaged from both sides. So to me what happens to MC is an absolute equivalent of Mida getting raped by a demon and blowing another dude under the influence of spores. While it would not be her fault, it is just not pleasant to see that. Though here I will say again that - I can enjoy NTR games too, this is just an analogy of when I WANTED to play a monogamous relationship. I basically have mental modes in which I play games. Sometimes I want something sweet, sometimes I don't mind something dirty, I can enjoy all types of games, but when I am in a head space where I am trying to do a romantic monogamous playthrough seeing MC getting raped is the equivalent of seeing Mida getting raped. So I mention NTR not as in I think this game has NTR, but as an allegory, it makes me feel the same way when I wasn't ready for that.

MC is a horndog fuck boy: I'm not even sure of what that means, but I can tell you that when I was his age in real life (and almost every other guy I knew) a hot girl could cause unwanted and involuntary body reactions on my part :oops:
I guess out of everything I said that is the most not important jab from myself. It is not that important.

About Mida, she has her own personality she is not yours to control, same for any character (Unless you can mind control them but that's a total different point) she grows older and more experienced in life, like it would be in real life, she's naturally a lesbian but for "reasons" MC is different to her.
Could you remind me where in the plot she goes in detail about being a lesbian?

Thank you for your words and for playing the game, I do enjoy criticism when it's due, and I respect opinions. Trust me, I'm one of those people that believes anyone should be able to say whatever they want as long as it's not a direct threat to others, as everyone should be ready to hear whatever anyone else has to say. That would solve a lot of the world issues.
Thank you too for the response. Although the conversation before with others was a bit less than pleasant, I appreciate it. You and RoadWulf did clear up some things for me.
 
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JJJ84

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Could you remind me where in the plot she goes in detail about being a lesbian?
The game does not literally say she's a "lesbian" with the term itself, but shows in several scenes that Mida is into girls moreso than guys (MC is just the exception).

Mida even from Act 1, it's been clearly established that she likes women.
There's various dialogue referring to it, with her having the hots especially for Ayna.
Heck if player gets the MC to pursue Kat (with that spores scene), then Kat says to her "How about we get Mida to hook up with Ayna so she becomes accepting of our relationship." or something along those lines.
 
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Kthulian

www.kthuliangames.com
Game Developer
Apr 27, 2018
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1)
No you don't, you can deny her 2 times, third time she kisses MC, fourth time MC kisses her himself without a choice.

Just that, that librarian and MC kiss consensually.


2)
Could you remind me where in the plot she goes in detail about being a lesbian?


Thank you too for the response. Although the conversation before with others was a bit less than pleasant, I appreciate it. You and RoadWulf did clear up some things for me.
1) I'll check these ones, if there's no choice for the player then it needs to be changed.

2) She doesn't have to clearly state that she's a lesbian, did you clearly state that you are heterosexual during our conversation, or did I? I just assume you are, but I could be wrong.

Cheers!
 
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Kadajko

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2) She doesn't have to clearly state that she's a lesbian, did you clearly state that you are heterosexual during our conversation, or did I? I just assume you are, but I could be wrong.
Cheers!
I mean.. I judge a person by their actions if they don't state their sexuality. MC fucks girls so he is straight, Mida fucks MC and wants to fuck girls so she is bisexual. MC is an exception for most of the girls, since.. all the main ones don't fuck any other guy besides MC. If she enjoys dick she can't be a lesbian right? o_O
 

JJJ84

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I mean.. I judge a person by their actions if they don't state their sexuality. MC fucks girls so he is straight, Mida fucks MC and wants to fuck girls so she is bisexual. MC is an exception for most of the girls, since.. all the main ones don't fuck any other guy besides MC. If she enjoys dick she can't be a lesbian right? o_O
lol dude, does the terminology (lesbian or bi) really mean that much to you?
Just let it go man.

I mean both RoadWulf and Kthulian have said Mida is a Lesbian, but if you think she's not, then you can think think she's not.
No need to question them about something inconsequential, which I think is a bit absurd at this point.
 

Kadajko

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lol dude, does the terminology (lesbian or bi) really mean that much to you?
Just let it go man.

I mean both RoadWulf and Kthulian have said Mida is a Lesbian, but if you think she's not, then you can think think she's not.
No need to question them about something inconsequential, which I think is a bit absurd at this point.
Calm your tits, I am not attacking them for it. Just from the way they worded things it sounded to me like there was literally a conversation somewhere in the game that I missed or forgot about in which Mida discloses that she is a lesbian and was always attracted only to girls, and from what RoadWulf said it sounded like she is not even genuinely attracted to MC but it was because of magic, and that is why he is an exception.
 

JJJ84

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Calm your tits, I am not attacking them for it. Just from the way they worded things it sounded to me like there was literally a conversation somewhere in the game that I missed or forgot about in which Mida discloses that she is a lesbian and was always attracted only to girls, and from what RoadWulf said it sounded like she is not even genuinely attracted to MC but it was because of magic, and that is why he is an exception.
Who said anything about you attacking them?
I'm saying this cause you seem way too obsessed about this than a person should be (from your very first post with Mida liking girls which you had an issue with before RoadWulf & Kthulian's explanation, and now with the whole leading question " If she enjoys dick she can't be a lesbian right?" lol it's pretty obvious).

And as I've said before (and it's my third time saying it in reply to you smh), the game does not technically use the term term "Lesbian". It just states in couple of instances (through flashbacks and other characters dialogues when referring to Mida) that she prefers women more than men (with MC only being the exception).
Simple as that.

So at the end of it all, why should the whole terminology and definition of "Lesbian" "Bisexual" even matter?
In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter at all.
If you think Mida's a bi, just think of her as bi lol

That's why I'm saying you should let it go.
It's such an insignificant matter yet you're obsessing about it so much lmao.
 
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Kadajko

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I'm saying this cause you seem way too obsessed about this than a person should be (from your very first post with Mida liking girls which you had an issue with before RoadWulf & Kthulian's explanation
No, I started to be so interested with it after RoadWulf said and I quote, and I will hide it because he wanted to hide it that:

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

That is the only reason I cared to elaborate.

If she enjoys dick she can't be a lesbian right?
Absolutely correct statement. That is common sense. Gay guys can also enjoy pussy right?
 

HornyyPussy

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What is it with people going for personal attacks, attempts to frame the argument as insincere, attempts to shut people up instead of actually acknowledging the argument? You would say ANYTHING just to not acknowledge the argument: ''This is a troll'', ''He is just trying to pass off one thing as another'', ''he just wants the game to cater to his wishes.'' ANYTHING instead of actually dismantling the argument, which should be easy if the argument is not valid.
Because both Dev's have completely dismantled everything you said several times already......

At this point you're just coming of as obsessed, mostly saying that both dev's are wrong regarding their own game.
 
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