VN Ren'Py Being a DIK [v0.10.1] [DrPinkCake]

[Conklingc]

Somewhat linear yes but forcing us to romance and do things that go completely against who the MC MIGHT be based on choices/affinity is still stupid. DPC by doing this is ruining his own system. I in know way said "every decision" however some of decisions should be branches not just a momentary slide to the left, show scene, slide to the right, continue with same shit different day. Awe see but by allowing us to design his personality (by use of the affinity) we should impact how he acts/reacts to certain things. However other than minor dialogue changes and seeing a 0/50/100% scene we impact almost nothing. So far we haven't even been able to tell anyone (LI, Side, Tommy, etc. etc.) to just go fuck off. Other than 2 teachers who aren't even listed as side anything's.

I can agree with that, I usually don't think about the affinity system in verall character view because it's something I don't care for (same with free roam and minigames). When forced I make Chik or Dik decisions for a path, but I think the system artificially removes an amount of free choice. I don't expect any of that to change in this game and usually don't mention it, but if the developer asks for feedback at some point I would be happy to suggest not using it in a future game (although, going back to an earlier comment I know there are other people that really like the minigames, free roam, and Chik/Dik or depravity scores - so my tastes aren't universal).

 

[Cndyrvr4lf]

I can agree with that, I usually don't think about the affinity system in verall character view because it's something I don't care for (same with free roam and minigames). When forced I make Chik or Dik decisions for a path, but I think the system artificially removes an amount of free choice. I don't expect any of that to change in this game and usually don't mention it, but if the developer asks for feedback at some point I would be happy to suggest not using it in a future game (although, going back to an earlier comment I know there are other people that really like the minigames, free roam, and Chik/Dik or depravity scores - so my tastes aren't universal).

I am totally in agreement with you. I know DPC has said he doesn't like the RP system because its "to easy to manipulate" but his Affinity system is as well. So I fail to see why he even bothered. I have never liked the affinity system because you can literally go straight DIK/Chick Affinity but do the totally opposite as far as status and yet those Major Choices totally set you role in the game and the minor have 0 impact (other than dialogue pretty much). The reason so many games use RP is because it works, plain and simple.

 

[Malicre]

I can agree with that, I usually don't think about the affinity system in verall character view because it's something I don't care for (same with free roam and minigames). When forced I make Chik or Dik decisions for a path, but I think the system artificially removes an amount of free choice. I don't expect any of that to change in this game and usually don't mention it, but if the developer asks for feedback at some point I would be happy to suggest not using it in a future game (although, going back to an earlier comment I know there are other people that really like the minigames, free roam, and Chik/Dik or depravity scores - so my tastes aren't universal).

That's why i always said they should of made one of the routes require neutral alignment. Maybe they can do something were if you end the game at neutral allignment you get a secret ending route. It's WAY harder to stay neutral then it is to go full DIK/CHICK.

 

[Conklingc]

That's why i always said they should of made one of the routes require neutral alignment. Maybe they can do something were if you end the game at neutral allignment you get a secret ending route. It's WAY harder to stay neutral then it is to go full DIK/CHICK.

He could, but what Cndyrvr4lf was pointing out a player can go in and change their affinity points to be Dik/Neutral/Chik just like changing RP points in other games. Even without cheating it would encourage someone to disengage from the story and just focus on points. I'm not sure there is a solution for a game that offers different ends since there will always be players than want to see them all.

 

[Cndyrvr4lf]

That's why i always said they should of made one of the routes require neutral alignment. Maybe they can do something were if you end the game at neutral allignment you get a secret ending route. It's WAY harder to stay neutral then it is to go full DIK/CHICK.

That's because very few people in reality are truly neutral. How hard would it be to walk through life and not give a shit about anything? That's neutral, neither positive or negative just a simple I don't care either way.

Speaking from a game perspective or a route planning perspective? I could design a neutral route in a heartbeat. Choices - #1 Dik, #2 Chick #3 DIK, etc. etc.

 

[Cndyrvr4lf]

He could, but what Cndyrvr4lf was pointing out a player can go in and change their affinity points to be Dik/Neutral/Chik just like changing RP points in other games. Even without cheating it would encourage someone to disengage from the story and just focus on points. I'm not sure there is a solution for a game that offers different ends since there will always be players than want to see them all.

What I'm really afraid of is that I think DPC has the ending already planned and the only real difference is who is going to be standing beside you. That's why I think this is so forced.

 

[Conklingc]

What I'm really afraid of is that I think DPC has the ending already planned and the only real difference is who is going to be standing beside you. That's why I think this is so forced.

Yeah, Acting Lessons had 22 endings, but they were all basically the same except for who you were with and who your friend was with (or if either of you were single).

 

[chocolatemilkgames]

The story has to be somewhat linear, as it is no one likes waiting 3-5 months for an update if he made a separate path in the game for every decision each story would only get an episode every few years and each episode would add even more paths slowing development further.

Even in sandbox games you usually can only get to a result by following a specific path set up by the developer, I like this format better since I don't have to go searching for trigger events. An open world game might be nice, but that would require a huge design team and still would have limited options (Cyberpunk 2077 has been in development for a decade with a huge team and still keeps getting delayed).

I realize there are a lot more people on here who want more choices, but I actually would prefer a more linear path to keep production up and see more of the content in a single play through (I played episode 4 through 5 times to get the 3 paths with some variation in positive and negative results, but would have liked to get the content in one or two plays).

As for the character not sticking to your choices a better way to think of the game is you are following the developer's character, but as the player you get to sway some of his minor decisions rather than seeing him as your character who then acts in ways you don't approve of (I think the main characters in all these games have moments a player wouldn't choose any of the options for their own story).

I can understand wanting more choice, but sandbox porn games are almost always worse off. I find the increased number of choices available means WILDLY less time spent developing character and writing an engaging story. Renders and character models are suddenly lower quality and the development takes far longer for something that ultimately has less content. They can work, but games like this where the focus is on one story with minor character choices often end up having a high quality. I guess that's what it all comes down to though, quality vs quantity.

 

[ename144]

since the narrative center of the first part of the story was Maya and Josy, it could be that in this second part it will be Sage, and therefore the HOT

I'm not sure because Sage is the only one of the LIs that if you ignore her at some point she disappears (MC may not be her fuck buddy, he may not have helped her with Chad etc), so it would take an event that forces MC to getting closer to Sage, this could also be the event itself that brings them closer

One could argue that the scene in Episode 5 were she admits she was mad when the MC turned her down but says the two of them should hang out more is meant to be such a turning point. But like with a lot of things, we'll have to wait for Episode 6 to see if anything comes of it for those not on Sage's path.

Jill is the most canon path in the game.

If you play through to the current end with Scrappy mod then you can see there are no variables for her. The only scene you can skip is the shower scene and relies on you being crap at tennis rather then a dialogue choice. Other then that the only subtle change you can make is to dildo-helmet block her after the Chad fight.

Perhaps choices will have an effect with Jill down the line but right now you are where the author has forced you to be with that relationship.

I don't know. The MC can decide he asked Jill out just to spite Tybalt, and the game does remember that. Similarly, if you decline to kiss her during the date, even Jill will be unconvinced there's much between them.

And as mentioned before, if the MC doesn't win Bella over and tells Jill she shouldn't get close, their romance seems nearly DOA.

So yes, you can't skip many scenes, but you can skip important interactions and substantially alter the tone of their relationship.

 

[Cndyrvr4lf]

I can understand wanting more choice, but sandbox porn games are almost always worse off. I find the increased number of choices available means WILDLY less time spent developing character and writing an engaging story. Renders and character models are suddenly lower quality and the development takes far longer for something that ultimately has less content. They can work, but games like this where the focus is on one story with minor character choices often end up having a high quality. I guess that's what it all comes down to though, quality vs quantity.

I think you are going to the extreme on this. No one is saying we want a million branches or a sandbox/open world game. We just want our choices to actually matter otherwise why even give me a choice?

Edit - I'm not talking about the trivial choices, those are fine. I'm talking about the huge potential choices that should be branches within the game and yet they don't really seem to affect anything either. Example - Maya/Josy Friends or More? Wichever way you choose to go it doesn't really affect anything. Ep5 rolls around and Maya and Josy still are all chipper with you after potentially telling you that your not worth the risk, Josy asks you for help instead of Maya her GF who happens to be standing right there, Josy and Maya both admit they still have feelings for you? So what did our choice represent? One less sex scene but that's about it.

 

[ImperialD]

I think you are going to the extreme on this. No one is saying we want a million branches or a sandbox/open world game. We just want our choices to actually matter otherwise why even give me a choice?

pretty much my thoughts on this

 

[ename144]

That's because very few people in reality are truly neutral. How hard would it be to walk through life and not give a shit about anything? That's neutral, neither positive or negative just a simple I don't care either way.

Speaking from a game perspective or a route planning perspective? I could design a neutral route in a heartbeat. Choices - #1 Dik, #2 Chick #3 DIK, etc. etc.

It's a common problem with morality meters. With good and evil you know where you stand. But with these filthy neutrals...

I can understand wanting more choice, but sandbox porn games are almost always worse off. I find the increased number of choices available means WILDLY less time spent developing character and writing an engaging story. Renders and character models are suddenly lower quality and the development takes far longer for something that ultimately has less content. They can work, but games like this where the focus is on one story with minor character choices often end up having a high quality. I guess that's what it all comes down to though, quality vs quantity.

I agree in principal, but I do think DPC has been inconsistent in how he handles the idea of choices. Most of the time, we get relatively minor decisions that have a small but recognizable effect on the story, and all is well. But not always.

Sometimes the MC is his own person and we are just along for the ride, like when he storms out after the Maya/Josy revelation. Other times, it feels like our decisions have a substantial impact on the game (and sometimes the MC himself); the decision to break his 'code' and fight the jocks is one, the tryst with Jade might be another. And every now and then we get a heavily hyped choice that winds up having far less effect than it first seemed - the infamous library scene being the poster child here.

So while I appreciate the need to keep the story on the rails, I think a lot of the problems are of DPC's own making. He just can't stick to a consistent philosophy of how much impact our choices should have. This is made worse by how tight lipped he has been about just where the game is ultimately headed. He makes a lot of extra work for himself because the audience is often left to read their own interpretations into what a given choice "means," and it's very hard to satisfy all of them.

Mind you, I still love this game so don't take this as me slamming DPC as a writer. But he still has his blind spots, and this seems to be one of the biggest.

 

[Cndyrvr4lf]

It's a common problem with morality meters. With good and evil you know where you stand. But with these filthy neutrals...

It's a problem with game rules vs reality. Absolutes don't work. Good/Evil might work for a general tendency but it isn't a guarantee in reference to everything. Good can still do evil and Evil can still do good. Example - Churches in the dark ages and their actions. Hitler (before he went totally crazy) - Turned Germany into a 1st world nation and really turned them around after WWI (and then he lost it and went crazy and went back to evil). I in know way think Hitler was a good person so please don't go there.

 

[ename144]

Not entirely true. Even when I'm doing edits/ghostwriting for authors, and we collab, a lot of people in these books that are mentioned are there to add some depth to the story. They don't all need to be relevant to be memorable.

If Monica never comes up in the game, it won't hurt the storyline -- (at the same time, she can always be added in later via a presage) -- at least you have that idea that she is a "real" person with a "name." But if none of them were ever mentioned, the pace of the story would feel rushed, despite many parts feeling rushed. But again, he just doesn't know how to write. There are snippets of good writing, and then it's as if he falls into a mood and barrels through some of his ideas and cuts them out completely.

It is not an easy thing to write a story. I've written over a million words before I got the idea of it

Sure, naming characters can help flesh out the world. But it is interesting that Monica is referenced by name so often when other, more significant background characters are not. Maya's dad, for example, has had a much larger impact on the story and even a brief appearance on screen, but no one has ever mentioned his name.

Personally, I think it's actually a side effect of Josy's characterization. She doesn't like or respect Monica, so she prefers to call her by name rather than the semi-honorific "my step-mom." We learn her name in the process more or less as collateral damage.

As for DPC's skills as a writer, I think you're a little hard on him. As I said above, he certainly has weaknesses, but he has very real strengths, too.

 

[seriousssam]

Isn't that just her fetish? She does the same thing with the MC. They don't look alike anyway.

In one scene, Jade Says MC "My career and children" And no husband will tolerate a photo of someone else's boyfriend in the bedroom. Tybalt has the same hair as Jade (Eyebrows like a husband). Heredity.

 

[Manuka]

Sure, naming characters can help flesh out the world. But it is interesting that Monica is referenced by name so often when other, more significant background characters are not. Maya's dad, for example, has had a much larger impact on the story and even a brief appearance on screen, but no one has ever mentioned his name.

Personally, I think it's actually a side effect of Josy's characterization. She doesn't like or respect Monica, so she prefers to call her by name rather than the semi-honorific "my step-mom." We learn her name in the process more or less as collateral damage.

As for DPC's skills as a writer, I think you're a little hard on him. As I said above, he certainly has weaknesses, but he has very real strengths, too.

Aside from this being a sex game.

As a writer I expect criticism, otherwise, none of us would ever write better. I'm not saying he can't write period, or that I'm this glorious writer--we all screw up and make basic mistakes--I'm saying there are rules to writing a convincing story, character, and world-building, and because he's so distracted with images and animation that he hasn't even developed the characters properly. Literally, all the characters are so flip-floppy they can give someone whiplash. If you took the dialogue and changed them around to different characters, you'd never know who it belonged to in the first place. (that's my point).

He seems to be doing this backward and on the fly. Again, he simply (by now) should have understood how to apply the basic 3-character-story-arc methods that apply to novels (visual, screenplay, books), it makes no difference.

 

[ename144]

Aside from this being a sex game.

As a writer I expect criticism, otherwise, none of us would ever write better. I'm not saying he can't write period, or that I'm this glorious writer--we all screw up and make basic mistakes--I'm saying there are rules to writing a convincing story, character, and world-building, and because he's so distracted with images and animation that he hasn't even developed the characters properly. Literally, all the characters are so flip-floppy they can give someone whiplash. If you took the dialogue and changed them around to different characters, you'd never know who it belonged to in the first place. (that's my point).

He seems to be doing this backward and on the fly. Again, he simply (by now) should have understood how to apply the basic 3-character-story-arc methods that apply to novels (visual, screenplay, books), it makes no difference.

I must disagree. I find the characters have relatively well established personalities, and often even distinctive voices. Swapping their dialog around would be extremely noticeable. In fact, the scenes where the characters act wildly out of character are noteworthy precisely because they are so rare.

I also think you are partially wrong about the rules for writing. Yes, this is a sex game and thus the visuals and animations get a lot of attention. But by the same token, the demands of this story are going to be different than if it were a novel (risque or otherwise). Not all the rules translate across media directly. Using visuals to help establish characters is a vital part of this sort of game.

 

[Manuka]

In one scene, Jade Says MC "The kids have grown ..." And no husband will tolerate a photo of someone else's boyfriend in the bedroom. Tybalt has the same hair as Jade. Heredity.

That's true.

It's a problem with game rules vs reality. Absolutes don't work. Good/Evil might work for a general tendency but it isn't a guarantee in reference to everything. Good can still do evil and Evil can still do good. Example - Churches in the dark ages and their actions. Hitler (before he went totally crazy) - Turned Germany into a 1st world nation and really turned them around after WWI (and then he lost it and went crazy and went back to evil). I in no way think Hitler was a good person so please don't go there.

Good point. In all the books I've read and written, the antagonist vs protagonist is not that different on the morality spectrum. They each have their own view of what's good and what's evil. And both of them feel they are correct. That's why it's important to keep the characters consistent. When you have an MC with such a loving father as Neil and has all this love and respect for him, yet goes and basically leads on as many girls he wants, you have a conflict of character morality, to begin with. That's why the choices are important in games like this. But, it's not like DPA hasn't digressed a bit from his previous versions.

 

[Manuka]

I must disagree. I find the characters have relatively well established personalities, and often even distinctive voices. Swapping their dialog around would be extremely noticeable. In fact, the scenes where the characters act wildly out of character are noteworthy precisely because they are so rare.

I also think you are partially wrong about the rules for writing. Yes, this is a sex game and thus the visuals and animations get a lot of attention. But by the same token, the demands of this story are going to be different than if it were a novel (risque or otherwise). Not all the rules translate across media directly. Using visuals to help establish characters is a vital part of this sort of game.

Acting out of Character is literally the definition of bad writing, btw. Characters in all "well" written stories are consistent. They can have their changes, but it must be consistent with their goals.

Yeah, you're right, the focus is on it being a sex game that is solely driven by pictures (which negates his ability to write convincingly). But we're talking about writing skills. There's one determination just as there is with IQ, or with any skill. It's measured by a basic construct of ability. And there are standards you can't break like structure, or it seems wishy-washy, and no longer a storyline well written. I've edited dozens and dozens of novels, DPC, would never make it as a novelist without pictures. When you see things like "Yeah, well" repeated across all characters, that's poor writing and not distinctive. When you see "Oh... yeah, erhm..." That's also a no-no. And there is so much passive voice in this, it's insane. On top of it, he's writing what I'm assuming in 3rd Omniscient without any limits. There are only a few people in the history of writing that are able to pull that off properly. Very, very, very few.

 

[Conklingc]

Example - Maya/Josy Friends or More? Wichever way you choose to go it doesn't really affect anything. Ep5 rolls around and Maya and Josy still are all chipper with you after potentially telling you that your not worth the risk, Josy asks you for help instead of Maya her GF who happens to be standing right there, Josy and Maya both admit they still have feelings for you? So what did our choice represent? One less sex scene but that's about it.

I think the Maya/Josy situation and how it resolved in the end of episode 4 is one of the most criticized parts of this game so far. I went back to play the rejected by them path for 5 just to see what would happen, and like you said basically you miss out on the sex scene and hanging out on blanket where nothing is resolved, and a phone call later in the episode (although the phone call seemed to have the opposite tone of the blanket discussion in the relationship path suggesting they were going for a full sexual relationship).

On the rejection path the MC barely mentions they dumped him and if you go to Maya continues to profess his undying devotion claiming he would always be there for her (I assume part of this is to reopen the romance path, but it hardly feels like a natural reaction to being dumped). It does go to emphasize it's the developer's character and not ours as after being dumped by two women who pushed for days to get together and talk things out I'd have a hard time imagining ever wanting to speak to them again and would be especially cautious about opening up to them emotionally.