VN Ren'Py Being a DIK [v0.11.1] [DrPinkCake]

[zoyle]

Precisely. Yet some folk have the impression that DPC is the greatest writer to have ever lived and written a VN....


Almost definitely 100% yes.


Hahahahah brilliant.


Also very accurate. She trusts the MC not to take advantage in that situation, even more so if Josy was involved. All we can go off ultimately is how DPC has written the characters. Using this information, no way in hell would Maya ever become a whore just for the tuition, no matter how desperate she was. Just wouldn't happen. I could actually see (as much as I hate writing this) Josy being more inclined.

There are a million ways to have that conversation without telling Maya everything. I guess I would rather ruin my relationship with Maya by telling her everything than allow her to walk blindly into a situation where she could get hurt. I'm not that selfish to endanger someone over a desire to get my dick wet.

But as someone else mentioned, there is no 3 letter tag on this, so regardless, it probably isn't going to happen either way, even if there will be a dilemma and drama to the effect of.

MC isn't necessarily a user of the service and doesn't necessarily have that information to share with Maya in the first place - you can refuse the number, and you can also accept it and never use the service. The warning scene is placed (intentionally, I imagine) prior to any opportunity for you to use Quinn's services so that there don't have to be branches of MC's warning based on what he knows so early in the game. He tells her what any playthrough would know (Quinn's up to no good) prior to having access to any more specific information.

Now, you can maybe make an argument he should tell her later. I think the biggest problem with that is that most of the period where he should do that they're not speaking (eg episode 4). I'll repeat my question for Cndyr again: where, exactly, or what event do you think should spur the MC to be like 'no no, absolutely not Maya you have to GTFO from the HOTs because you are super in danger'.

 

[Cndyrvr4lf]

MC isn't necessarily a user of the service and doesn't necessarily have that information to share with Maya in the first place - you can refuse the number, and you can also accept it and never use the service. The warning scene is placed (intentionally, I imagine) prior to any opportunity for you to use Quinn's services so that there don't have to be branches of MC's warning based on what he knows so early in the game. He tells her what any playthrough would know (Quinn's up to no good) prior to having access to any more specific information.

Now, you can maybe make an argument he should tell her later. I think the biggest problem with that is that most of the period where he should do that they're not speaking (eg episode 4). I'll repeat my question for Cndyr again: where, exactly, or what event do you think should spur the MC to be like 'no no, absolutely not Maya you have to GTFO from the HOTs because you are super in danger'.

I did answer that you missed it. I am not going back to find it. We have added 10+ pages in just this series

 

[zoyle]

She is deluding herself then. I guess I was spared all that by not being involved in the greek scene when I went to school. I also have never really cared what others thought of me as a person. Honestly I have only really worried about what I think, after all I'm the only person I have to see in the mirror everyday. As long as I am happy with who I am that's good enough. I just can't understand how someone could be so wrapped up in what someone else thinks about them that they would sabotage themselves in order to achieve that.

I mean that's mostly a pretty healthy attitude but I have a hard time believing anyone who tells me they've never in their life experienced an unhealthy, dangerous peer pressure scenario. Even if you weren't popular or didn't have many friends, this stuff comes up. I was far from a popular kid in high school or college, but I still can tell you a story about when some friends of mine decided they wanted to find out what I was like when I was drunk (I never drink), convinced me to come out with a club with them and then pressed me to drink dramatically more than I intended, leading to one of the only nights of my life I literally don't remember. Peer pressure happens in almost every social scenario, but especially so with young people, and people who are lonely, insecure or isolated pretty much constantly make bad decisions because of it.

A big one in particular I think is that even if MC is using quinn's service he doesn't know where the money is going. The situation is very different if Quinn is arranging encounters with girls who want to participate and the girls are getting the money themselves, than if Quinn is actually pimping them. We know that's the case, but our MC has little reason to know that and even less experience with anything like that to work from. It's just not realistic to think he should be as certain about Quinn's bad motives as the player.

 

[xsssssssss]

A big one in particular I think is that even if MC is using quinn's service he doesn't know where the money is going. The situation is very different if Quinn is arranging encounters with girls who want to participate and the girls are getting the money themselves, than if Quinn is actually pimping them. We know that's the case, but our MC has little reason to know that and even less experience with anything like that to work from. It's just not realistic to think he should be as certain about Quinn's bad motives as the player.

The player isn’t certain of her bad motives. We don’t know where all the money is going yet.

 

[Craduco]

Bella needs a new hairstyle imo

 

[moskyx]

From a purely narrative/stylistic point of view, do you think that being able, as players, to watch some cutscenes our MC don't see is somehow damaging our gaming experience?

We're now discussing about Quinn's scheme and it's true that we the players know way more of it than any of our MCs thanks to those cutscenes. While this is how most of films and TV shows work, in those we are just witnesses of events, we don't have the option to play a part on them and it helps us to cope with the 'wrong' choices made by our favourite characters. But here, playing as a certain character, we have more inputs of what's actually going on than our character, and this can lead to some disappointment when we can't do what "we know" we should do. Obviously being able to have a broader look than our MC can be positive because it helps to create some tension and let creators show some power dynamics that are important to the story, but it can also lead to some negative issues as we're talking now.

I honestly prefer to discover things at the same time as my character, it helps me to be more comfortable with the choices made because I feel I made the one I wanted to make with the info available at that moment, even if it proves to be a wrong one in the end. In AL we had that kind of POV narrative and, in that sense, it worked quite well. There were hints here and there so you can't say DPC was fooling you all the way, but we came to the shocking moment with the same info our MC had, so we could understand and share his shock. That's not gonna happen in BaDIK

 

[zoyle]

There's a lot of this 'piracy' word bandied around here. If the game was purely on Steam say for example, the game was pureluy obtained by 'buying' it...then this is a piracy site.

These games are few and far between. If you accept donations, you are giving your game away. It's free, therefore there is no piracy here. There is no legal jargon to agree to either. It's a free product that they accept donations for. If AVN devs have an issue with this, then maybe they should stop accepting 'donations' and make it purely a paywall product with DRM such as Steam. Even if they could give a dollar a month, some people are so obsessed and indoctrinated with Steam, they will still prefer to 'buy' it there.

However they won't, as they know most of their revenue stream (donated) comes from people on sites such as this. It's a double edged sword. Bottom line is, most AVN's are not sold, they are working on them anyway and accept 'donations' from admirers. DPC apparently whines his revenue stream keeps changing (my heart bleeds), well then maybe charge for your product and skip the donations. He won't (none of them will) as they know purely charging for it won't make them enough money (unless they do it purely for the actual fun of it, and that rarely lasts very long).

I do agree on many other points of your post especially no serious programer is ever going to put a porn game on thier CV.

Just my 2cents on this piracy issue.



Josy is all for committment btw. Read that scene again properly. It's Maya who is unsure of firm committment in case it goes wrong and she loses everything. Not Josy.

I just clicked on a notification and it took me back to this post of yours from a few pages back, but I think which girl expresses interest in 'moving slowly' depends on which girl you have sex with in Ep 5. The conversation about moving slowly emotionally starts via the phone calls and texts the MC makes from Isabella's house, and he makes those calls to whichever girl he had sex with. If he went with Josy and slept with her, she brings it up first. If he went with Maya and slept with her, she brings it up first. Then Maya is the one who elaborates further when they have the little gathering in the 2nd-to-last scene of the episode - I'd agree she's probably the instigator, but Josy also expresses the same fear of losing both her loves if it goes wrong in the dorm room before her sex scene. I'd agree Josy is likely to be commitment-ready faster, and there's a variety of good reasons for that, including that she's known the MC a lot longer than Maya, that she's not dealing with changing her entire sexual identity, and that she's not as isolated and dependent on the two of them the way that Maya is. Of course, that's likely to work in the opposite direction - Maya's probably going to be the one who emotionally invests the fastest, for all of those same reasons. That's the way it usually works out.

 

[felicemastronzo]

From a purely narrative/stylistic point of view, do you think that being able, as players, to watch some cutscenes our MC don't see is somehow damaging our gaming experience?

We're now discussing about Quinn's scheme and it's true that we the players know way more of it than any of our MCs thanks to those cutscenes. While this is how most of films and TV shows work, in those we are just witnesses of events, we don't have the option to play a part on them and it helps us to cope with the 'wrong' choices made by our favourite characters. But here, playing as a certain character, we have more inputs of what's actually going on than our character, and this can lead to some disappointment when we can't do what "we know" we should do. Obviously being able to have a broader look than our MC can be positive because it helps to create some tension and let creators show some power dynamics that are important to the story, but it can also lead to some negative issues as we're talking now.

I honestly prefer to discover things at the same time as my character, it helps me to be more comfortable with the choices made because I feel I made the one I wanted to make with the info available at that moment, even if it proves to be a wrong one in the end. In AL we had that kind of POV narrative and, in that sense, it worked quite well. There were hints here and there so you can't say DPC was fooling you all the way, but we came to the shocking moment with the same info our MC had, so we could understand and share his shock. That's not gonna happen in BaDIK

absolutely yes.

as long as they are flashbacks, it's not a big deal, we can always imagine someone telling MC about it.
but when they are private dialogues they distance us from MC, making it less natural to interact with his behavior

it is clear that we are not MC (NTR !!!!!!!), but we are responsible for him

 

[xsssssssss]

From a purely narrative/stylistic point of view, do you think that being able, as players, to watch some cutscenes our MC don't see is somehow damaging our gaming experience?

....

I honestly prefer to discover things at the same time as my character, it helps me to be more comfortable with the choices made because I feel I made the one I wanted to make with the info available at that moment, even if it proves to be a wrong one in the end. In AL we had that kind of POV narrative and, in that sense, it worked quite well. There were hints here and there so you can't say DPC was fooling you all the way, but we came to the shocking moment with the same info our MC had, so we could understand and share his shock. That's not gonna happen in BaDIK

I prefer the being a dik approach. As long as non POV don’t overwhelm the POV ones I think they are very valuable in fleshing out the story of the world.

 

[Cndyrvr4lf]

From a purely narrative/stylistic point of view, do you think that being able, as players, to watch some cutscenes our MC don't see is somehow damaging our gaming experience?

We're now discussing about Quinn's scheme and it's true that we the players know way more of it than any of our MCs thanks to those cutscenes. While this is how most of films and TV shows work, in those we are just witnesses of events, we don't have the option to play a part on them and it helps us to cope with the 'wrong' choices made by our favourite characters. But here, playing as a certain character, we have more inputs of what's actually going on than our character, and this can lead to some disappointment when we can't do what "we know" we should do. Obviously being able to have a broader look than our MC can be positive because it helps to create some tension and let creators show some power dynamics that are important to the story, but it can also lead to some negative issues as we're talking now.

I honestly prefer to discover things at the same time as my character, it helps me to be more comfortable with the choices made because I feel I made the one I wanted to make with the info available at that moment, even if it proves to be a wrong one in the end. In AL we had that kind of POV narrative and, in that sense, it worked quite well. There were hints here and there so you can't say DPC was fooling you all the way, but we came to the shocking moment with the same info our MC had, so we could understand and share his shock. That's not gonna happen in BaDIK

Yeah I know I lose track of what the player knows vs what the MC knows sometimes.

 

[zoyle]

absolutely yes.

as long as they are flashbacks, it's not a big deal, we can always imagine someone telling MC about it.
but when they are private dialogues they distance us from MC, making it less natural to interact with his behavior

it is clear that we are not MC (NTR !!!!!!!), but we are responsible for him

I understand that wish but equally in this kind of game people usually want to be somewhat in control of the ending and they tend to react really badly to games that make them feel like they were gotcha'd and could not achieve the ending they wanted. If we only knew the things MC knows, had no other information about what was going on, and consequently people were less inclined to warn or protect Maya because Quinn seemed less threatening, you'd end up with a lot of people who wanted to wind up with Maya upset in the end that they had ruined that relationship before they knew what was what. That might be realistic, but it's not a great game experience. Think about how people felt and reacted when they found out they could not have a happy ending for every character they cared about in Acting Lessons (which, I note, is created by the same creator as this game! He's no stranger to serious bad outcomes for characters!)

It reminds me of how in other games and stories you frequently kind of know how things are gonna go. No one's ever written a huge game or a novel series about a hero who fails in the end and the bad guy wins. At worst maybe you lose some companion characters you care about or even the protagonist dies heroically, but you mostly know the good guys are gonna win, and if it's a series you usually know the good guy's gonna survive (Game of Thrones subverted so many expectations exactly because it's so singular in Not Doing This and making people feel insecure about every character's fate, and the main way it's able to do this is by not really having a protagonist).

People want agency and want to craft the story to their liking (and probably their fetish, in an adult game), but they don't want a bad ending, or at least they don't want a bad ending that they can't easily hit the back button a few times or reload a save from 5 minutes ago and make the opposite choice.

Like, one entirely realistic outcome for Being a DIK is that the MC doesn't make his relationship work with any of the girls. That's probably the most likely one! Most college relationships end, badly.

I doubt that's going to be featured as a good ending, though!

 

[Holy Bacchus]

From a purely narrative/stylistic point of view, do you think that being able, as players, to watch some cutscenes our MC don't see is somehow damaging our gaming experience?

We're now discussing about Quinn's scheme and it's true that we the players know way more of it than any of our MCs thanks to those cutscenes. While this is how most of films and TV shows work, in those we are just witnesses of events, we don't have the option to play a part on them and it helps us to cope with the 'wrong' choices made by our favourite characters. But here, playing as a certain character, we have more inputs of what's actually going on than our character, and this can lead to some disappointment when we can't do what "we know" we should do. Obviously being able to have a broader look than our MC can be positive because it helps to create some tension and let creators show some power dynamics that are important to the story, but it can also lead to some negative issues as we're talking now.

I honestly prefer to discover things at the same time as my character, it helps me to be more comfortable with the choices made because I feel I made the one I wanted to make with the info available at that moment, even if it proves to be a wrong one in the end. In AL we had that kind of POV narrative and, in that sense, it worked quite well. There were hints here and there so you can't say DPC was fooling you all the way, but we came to the shocking moment with the same info our MC had, so we could understand and share his shock. That's not gonna happen in BaDIK

In answer to the question, no, I don't think it damages the experience. In most cases, much like a TV show, it's giving us hints about what is to come and thus building up both our anticipation to see how these events will unfold, but also allowing us to think and to theorise about what will happen thus keeping us engaged.

It's only an issue when people forget that we are privy to much more information than the MC, like in the case of Quinn, that it becomes something of an issue when some people are assessing the MC's actions based on what we know and not what he knows. It's easy to judge the MC's action when you have all the information, but he doesn't, and people need to remember to separate those two things out when assessing and judging his actions.

Another issue can be when we see LIs being intimate with others because, even if it is something that has happened or is happening, it's not something most people want to see when they have an emotional investment in certain characters.

There are still lots of things we haven't seen and I don't expect DPC to spill every detail in these non-MC side scenes before the shock reveals, much like it was with the M&J reveal. So when it comes to someone like Bella, we'll get hints, teases, and maybe some parts of her story, but we'll still likely get blindsided by something that we didn't really see coming.

 

[felicemastronzo]

I understand that wish but equally in this kind of game people usually want to be somewhat in control of the ending and they tend to react really badly to games that make them feel like they were gotcha'd and could not achieve the ending they wanted. If we only knew the things MC knows, had no other information about what was going on, and consequently people were less inclined to warn or protect Maya because Quinn seemed less threatening, you'd end up with a lot of people who wanted to wind up with Maya upset in the end that they had ruined that relationship before they knew what was what. That might be realistic, but it's not a great game experience. Think about how people felt and reacted when they found out they could not have a happy ending for every character they cared about in Acting Lessons (which, I note, is created by the same creator as this game! He's no stranger to serious bad outcomes for characters!)

It reminds me of how in other games and stories you frequently kind of know how things are gonna go. No one's ever written a huge game or a novel series about a hero who fails in the end and the bad guy wins. At worst maybe you lose some companion characters you care about or even the protagonist dies heroically, but you mostly know the good guys are gonna win, and if it's a series you usually know the good guy's gonna survive (Game of Thrones subverted so many expectations exactly because it's so singular in Not Doing This and making people feel insecure about every character's fate, and the main way it's able to do this is by not really having a protagonist).

People want agency and want to craft the story to their liking (and probably their fetish, in an adult game), but they don't want a bad ending, or at least they don't want a bad ending that they can't easily hit the back button a few times or reload a save from 5 minutes ago and make the opposite choice.

the hope that bad things won't happen I gave up after finishing AL

therefore "divine" knowledge only serves to increase frustration (as in AL)

 

[moskyx]

I understand that wish but equally in this kind of game people usually want to be somewhat in control of the ending and they tend to react really badly to games that make them feel like they were gotcha'd and could not achieve the ending they wanted. If we only knew the things MC knows, had no other information about what was going on, and consequently people were less inclined to warn or protect Maya because Quinn seemed less threatening, you'd end up with a lot of people who wanted to wind up with Maya upset in the end that they had ruined that relationship before they knew what was what. That might be realistic, but it's not a great game experience. Think about how people felt and reacted when they found out they could not have a happy ending for every character they cared about in Acting Lessons (which, I note, is created by the same creator as this game! He's no stranger to serious bad outcomes for characters!)

But that has an easy solution. If you know by now Quinn's scheme, you warn Maya. If you don't know it, you'll still have the option to save her later on. If you know it and you didn't warn her, well... that's entirely on you, that's not what a good friend who wants to be something else should have done. That's a good game experience, your choices do matter and their consequences are somehow logical.

 

[zoyle]

But that has an easy solution. If you know by now Quinn's scheme, you warn Maya. If you don't know it, you'll still have the option to save her later on. If you know it and you didn't warn her, well... that's entirely on you, that's not what a good friend who wants to be something else should have done. That's a good game experience, your choices do matter and their consequences are somehow logical.

And indeed, those are the options that have been presented to us. Maya hasn't taken our advice, though, at least not yet (but that doesn't mean she won't remember it when she encounters something shady, which she hasn't done yet). Equally, its possible that those who didn't warn her when they had nothing very substantial will get an opportunity to redeem themselves with another warning and, at least, mitigate the consequences for her.

I feel like the game is being set up in such a way that most sets of decisions will lead to outcomes for Maya that are varying degrees of less than ideal, but if the MC has made all the right choices along the way (from warning her to spending time with her at the party instead of going with Josy, etc), then they'll be able to keep her entirely free of consequences. That may involve a tradeoff making it impossible to have the best outcome for other relationships (in particular, I could see it being impossible to get the best outcomes for both Sage and Maya at the same time).

 

[ename144]

What can he tell her? "I fucked Camila's ass through a glory hole after I called up Quinn"? I don't think that's quite what Maya was looking for when she asked the MC to be honest with her and the MC has the good sense to keep that to himself, not just because of how Maya would react to that, but also because he doesn't know the full story of why Camila did that. He just knows that it happened after calling Quinn which causes him to be wary of her and he simply tells Maya to be wary as well which is really as much as he can do at this point.

He can straight up tell her that Quinn offers sex for money. The MC definitely knows that much and it's far more specific than just saying she's 'evil.'

If he turns down Quinn's offer anything more is speculation, but not all speculation is created equal. The way Quinn describes her restaurant does imply the menu consists of more than just her. If we assume there are other girls, the HOTs are the obvious suspects. I mean who else is there? They'd have to be girls Quinn knows, and teachers or professional hookers wouldn't make any sense. Even if the menu included non-HOT students, you'd expect the HOTs to be disproportionately represented simply because of their reputation and Quinn's social circle.

In fact, if we look at what a pure CHICK MC says when he tries to warn Maya, it seems he has indeed made that connection:


So no, I don't think we can excuse the MC's lousy warning on lack of character knowledge. Yes, MCs who used Quinn's menu might want to omit that fact (though they could still lie and say they turned down the offer), but by the same token MCs who didn't should be that much more motivated to warn Maya specifically.

 

[moskyx]

In answer to the question, no, I don't think it damages the experience. In most cases, much like a TV show, it's giving us hints about what is to come and thus building up both our anticipation to see how these events will unfold, but also allowing us to think and to theorise about what will happen thus keeping us engaged.

It's only an issue when people forget that we are privy to much more information than the MC, like in the case of Quinn, that it becomes something of an issue when some people are assessing the MC's actions based on what we know and not what he knows. It's easy to judge the MC's action when you have all the information, but he doesn't, and people need to remember to separate those two things out when assessing and judging his actions.

Well, but that's exactly what I mean. People get frustrated with their own MC because they know more than him and can't use that info when needed. That's ruining the game experience for them. You're demanding players to step away from the character they are handling, and that's an effort not everybody is able/willing/used to do.

At the same time, I agree with the first part of your comment. If we were as blind as our MC, probably we wouldn't see so many theories and might be asking ourselves what's the actual point of the game, where's the catch.

 

[zoyle]

He can straight up tell her that Quinn offers sex for money. The MC definitely knows that much and it's far more specific than just saying she's 'evil.'

If he turns down Quinn's offer anything more is speculation, but not all speculation is created equal. The way Quinn describes her restaurant does imply the menu consists of more than just her. If we assume there are other girls, the HOTs are the obvious suspects. I mean who else is there? They'd have to be girls Quinn knows, and teachers or professional hookers wouldn't make any sense. Even if the menu included non-HOT students, you'd expect the HOTs to be disproportionately represented simply because of their reputation and Quinn's social circle.

In fact, if we look at what a pure CHICK MC says when he tries to warn Maya, it seems he has indeed made that connection:
View attachment 766016

So no, I don't think we can excuse the MC's lousy warning on lack of character knowledge. Yes, MCs who used Quinn's menu might want to omit that fact (though they could still lie and say they turned down the offer), but by the same token MCs who didn't should be that much more motivated to warn Maya specifically.

On the other hand, that line you showed there is not a thought bubble, they're words MC said directly to Maya. She neither follows up or appears to heed the warning (yet).

With that said, though, I think that's fundamentally realistic: as much as there's a lot going on between MC and Maya, they haven't known each other that long. I don't think it's unrealistic for Maya to more or less take the warning under advisement, but for it to be important to her deciding that yes, something IS wrong with this situation and this is why he warned me, once she ends up in the vicinity of such a situation. Maya doesn't exactly ask MC to elaborate in this scene, so she either doesn't get what he's implying or she doesn't take it seriously yet, and, as you mentioned, he's pretty clear about what he believes.

 

[ename144]

On the other hand, that line you showed there is not a thought bubble, they're words MC said directly to Maya. She neither follows up or appears to heed the warning (yet).

With that said, though, I think that's fundamentally realistic: as much as there's a lot going on between MC and Maya, they haven't known each other that long. I don't think it's unrealistic for Maya to more or less take the warning under advisement, but for it to be important to her deciding that yes, something IS wrong with this situation and this is why he warned me, once she ends up in the vicinity of such a situation. Maya doesn't exactly ask MC to elaborate in this scene, so she either doesn't get what he's implying or she doesn't take it seriously yet, and, as you mentioned, he's pretty clear about what he believes.

But my point is that while it's clear what he believes, it's very unclear what he is warning Maya about. That feels like the worst of both worlds to me.

If he's not going to give Maya a proper warning, why make it clear that he knows enough to give her a better warning?

 

[moskyx]

But my point is that while it's clear what he believes, it's very unclear what he is warning Maya about. That feels like the worst of both worlds to me.

If he's not going to give Maya a proper warning, why make it clear that he knows enough to give her a better warning?

Same reason none of them ever say it loud the name of her summer crush/secret girlfriend even when talking about her.

PLOT-TWIST!!

Don't try to understand it, just put up with it