Daveiy
Member
- Mar 6, 2018
- 346
- 322
i hate Fantasy and Dream Sequences !! its so annoying and spoils the teasing fun. why do he care to implement those if he can just focus on an actual continuation of the game?
Ren'Py Big Brother: Another Story Rebuild [v0.08.02] [Aleksey90]
- Thread starter Crazygamer43
- Start date
por12
Active Member
- Nov 22, 2020
- 766
- 1,145
My second post went into why I don't think that's true and that alternative solutions exist. It's far from an exhuastive list, I was just trying to demonstrate the point with a couple examples. I agree that releasing it fully formed wouldn't be a viable solution, at least for a small indie developer in this space.
He feeds his subscribers shit. They support him, but he doesn't have to do anything, he's happy with everything. You need to cancel subscriptions in order for it to start working.
I'll never understand this entitled choosing beggar mindset.
"You know what will motivate them to work harder?! Let's remove any incentive and bully them into doing it! That'll work!"
Moronic
Don't take this as advocating for blind support. If you're like me and not happy with the direction the product, you can walk away with your support, give constructive feedback and suggestions, then consider coming back if/when you think they've improved again. If you have faith in the dev and the vision of the project, you might choose to continuing to support it in spite of any grievances. That's subjective and entirely up to the individual and what they think is worth spending their money on.
If you know anything about this type of work (I do it for a living), then you'll know that claims that they're "milking" or "not doing anything" are typically fucking dumb as bricks and the easiest way to tell whether someone understands the space or are just coping. It's like wearing a big sign saying "I don't know how any of this works". One guy a few posts back even suggested the dev should "just hire more help and put more effort in", because a dev who works a full time job and does this project in their spare time, alone, can surely afford to do that. The also suggested the dev should "just use AI" as though that would work and it's an easy fix. How to say you know nothing without saying you know nothing. That's like trying to diffuse a nuclear bomb and saying, "just use google" or "just use a hammer". Don't be that guy, think.
This type of project is hard, requires many completely different skillsets and is a lot of work, especially if you're a solo act and you're already doing it on top of other regular IRL stuff like a full time job (which I believe this dev does, he's mentioned he works/ed in agriculture). Every project has a different scope, with different pipelines, different demands, bottlenecks and limitations. Comparing projects and their progress has limited value. Bringing on additional help, especially when there's no guarantee of compensation and it's to work on someone else vision is even harder.
Don't attribute to malice what can be attributed to incompetence. I see way to many people here jump to the conclusion that this or devs in general are intentionally trying to fuck over their supporters and take advantage of them, when it's far more likely and often seems even self-evident that they're just struggling to balance work on the project with other IRL obligations. You know, things like working a IRL job to pay the bills because the project doesn't make enough money to pay them, who'da thunk?
Badgering the dev and advocating the boycott of support because you don't think they're not slaving away enough is a sure fire way to see a project die. If that's your goal, it's petty and spiteful, but at least its consistent in it's logic. You do you I guess.
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gramaton
Member
- May 16, 2017
- 221
- 370
calm down, gooner. just JF on other shit ffs
Scorby,
If it was a hobby, hardly anyone would say anything. But when you earn money with it, and he apparently earns really well (minus Patreon deductions, Aleksey should be earning a good 1.5 months' salary in Russia), it's no longer so easy. Yes, he's a one-man show and yes, he does it part-time. I just don't see the countervalue to the payers' hope of getting something. In any case, the volume of updates over such a long period of time should not be due to the difficulty of developing the game. Extending dreams shouldn't be that complicated and apart from that, there's hardly anything left over for 4 months of “development time”. Especially as there was more content in the early days when he earned even less. The more he earns, the less content you get. The suspicion can arise.
If you leave out the “dreams”, what progress has been made in the game over the two years?
Overall, it's probably the Patreon model that bothers me so much. It works for everyone (Dev and Patreon), only the payers get less and less for what they paid for. Whether the model works in the long run remains to be seen. If there are more and more people like me who barely even think about finishing the “products” they are supposed to pay for, why should they start paying? Maybe I'm just too critical, I don't know.
If it was a hobby, hardly anyone would say anything. But when you earn money with it, and he apparently earns really well (minus Patreon deductions, Aleksey should be earning a good 1.5 months' salary in Russia), it's no longer so easy. Yes, he's a one-man show and yes, he does it part-time. I just don't see the countervalue to the payers' hope of getting something. In any case, the volume of updates over such a long period of time should not be due to the difficulty of developing the game. Extending dreams shouldn't be that complicated and apart from that, there's hardly anything left over for 4 months of “development time”. Especially as there was more content in the early days when he earned even less. The more he earns, the less content you get. The suspicion can arise.
If you leave out the “dreams”, what progress has been made in the game over the two years?
Overall, it's probably the Patreon model that bothers me so much. It works for everyone (Dev and Patreon), only the payers get less and less for what they paid for. Whether the model works in the long run remains to be seen. If there are more and more people like me who barely even think about finishing the “products” they are supposed to pay for, why should they start paying? Maybe I'm just too critical, I don't know.
Just subscripted the Tier 1 in patreon to get the V0.07 update. I am willing to support creator as long as is fair price. If you pay $30 monthly just to get a update or some fan art poster(monthly) every 3-4 months, I am feeling sorry for you. Maybe I am too poor for this price but if monthly charge $5 can get a update monthly I am so willing to pay. I will not sarcasm those user who ask for free sharing since I think internet porn game world is harmonious and welcome to all, if you are wealthy you can pay more for creator or even you are poor(like me) just wait or ask for free share are all be understanded. As a player(even a free rider) can comment a game is good or bad as long as the comment is ture. (Sorry for my poor English writing as English is not my native tongue)
Unless I confuse the original BBAS the first version came out 2019-11-30. version v0.07.p2 was released 2021-10-10 1 year and 10 months. it had actions with Kira and Alice and there was already a conflict with Eric's wallet.
Rebild began 2023-02-26 v0.07 came out 2024-12-28 the difference is also 1 year and 10 months, but there is almost no progress in the game (Eric is not really visible, Kira is not at all) some dreams.
used translator may be errors
Rebild began 2023-02-26 v0.07 came out 2024-12-28 the difference is also 1 year and 10 months, but there is almost no progress in the game (Eric is not really visible, Kira is not at all) some dreams.
used translator may be errors
thinman78 Honestly a lot of those points, assuming they're accurate, are fair.
Having said that we can very roughly estimate what he could be getting from Patreon (not sure about boosty). I'll put the a wall of text on how I got the estimate behind a spoiler to spare those who don't really care how and just want the final figure. It's based on my own experience of running and managing a Patreon,
So he could be making So $13k-$39k a year, with the high end being a pretty unrealistic and very generous estimate. Based on my experience I would guess something like $18-$21k a year, but the metrics I've seen in my experience may not be representative of his case.
If it's on the lower end, then that's not that much money, even for Russia, and that's before considering the current economic situation there. We also don't know and can't account for how that income compares to the income he brings in from his IRL work. It could be a fraction of what he makes meaning the incentive to prioritize it or give up is day job is much lower. We also don't know whether he has other people relying on him such as family or kids, so the risk aversion to commit full time to this project could be much higher. $13k would matter a lot less to someone who makes $50k from their IRL job, lives in an expensive city and has to support a family, as opposed to someone who makes about that much already, lives in a rural village and only supports themselves. What's considered "good money" is relative to the context, not just the national average or the figure alone.
Long and short, with what we know, I don't think we could say with any certainty about whether he's making good money or not, as we simply don't know enough. If he is earning on the higher end of the estimate, then your point would be valid, and I'd happily grant you that, but that's already a pretty generous estimate to begin with so I think that's unlikely and the truth is probably somewhere in-between. So whilst your point that he earns good money could merit consideration, I don't think it carries much weight at the moment as it's too speculative.
However, I still think it's a stretch to assume (as others have, I don't know if you meant this) it's intentional, malicious or that he's being lazy. It's possible sure, but outside of speculation we have no reason to think so and it would be assuming the worse, which people on here seem way too ready to do.
I want to be clear, this may not be an applicable reason, I could be entirely wrong about this, or it may not be the sole explanation for things like the drop of in content volume for each update, but given what I know about the game and the work involved, something like this seems far more likely to me then assuming the dev is milking his supporters.
I don't know why the content, at least as far as the user experiences it, for each update is lighter than it was in the past. I think that is a valid criticism and expressing that sentiment is valid and might warrant an explanation from the dev, especially if his supporters share in that criticism. The crux of what I'm saying is we simply don't know enough to say with any level of certainty why that is and that there are a lot of potential good reasons that explain it. It gets old seeing people on these forums immediately assume the worse and engage in bad faith assumptions. It's lazy and toxic af.
If you can give credit to this dev for anything, it would be that they have continued to work on the project and have consistently gotten 3-4 updates out each year for multiple years now. In my mind they've demonstrated consistency and I think that deserves acknowledgement, especially when being critical of them. I've been pretty outspoken about some of the issues I've had with the project in the past and both the dev and other people associated with the project engaged with my criticism and feedback in good faith and with an open mind. The least we can do is extend that courtesy by default.
Do I wish they'd do certain things differently? Definitely, it's why I'm currently not supporting the game, but still check in on it. Do I think the content has been pretty light in recent patches? Yeah and I don't really understand why they've been so light in comparison to older patches and I think an explanation is warranted at this point (which seems to be what you were advocating for) with a plan on how to rectify it. In about the same span of time the dev has been working on the rebuild version, we've made less than half the progress than in the first iteration. I think frustration around that fact is warranted and the devs haven't done the best job at communicating on that issue. Do I think the dev is a lazy milker who just edges his supporters on keep them paying? No, that seems pretty brain dead to me with nothing to support it.
Holy wall of text, sorry. Kudos if you read this far.
I'm not convinced that he's earning as much as you think he is. I'm not sure what a representative salary in Russia would be (google says $15k, but that doesn't account for the mean, the region, etc), and I have no idea what the purchasing power parity is there, especially with the wartime economy, or what the devs own personal circumstances are (the same money might go a lot further depending on where and how he's living in Russia), so I leave others who might know better to speculate about that.
Having said that we can very roughly estimate what he could be getting from Patreon (not sure about boosty). I'll put the a wall of text on how I got the estimate behind a spoiler to spare those who don't really care how and just want the final figure. It's based on my own experience of running and managing a Patreon,
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So he could be making So $13k-$39k a year, with the high end being a pretty unrealistic and very generous estimate. Based on my experience I would guess something like $18-$21k a year, but the metrics I've seen in my experience may not be representative of his case.
If it's on the lower end, then that's not that much money, even for Russia, and that's before considering the current economic situation there. We also don't know and can't account for how that income compares to the income he brings in from his IRL work. It could be a fraction of what he makes meaning the incentive to prioritize it or give up is day job is much lower. We also don't know whether he has other people relying on him such as family or kids, so the risk aversion to commit full time to this project could be much higher. $13k would matter a lot less to someone who makes $50k from their IRL job, lives in an expensive city and has to support a family, as opposed to someone who makes about that much already, lives in a rural village and only supports themselves. What's considered "good money" is relative to the context, not just the national average or the figure alone.
Long and short, with what we know, I don't think we could say with any certainty about whether he's making good money or not, as we simply don't know enough. If he is earning on the higher end of the estimate, then your point would be valid, and I'd happily grant you that, but that's already a pretty generous estimate to begin with so I think that's unlikely and the truth is probably somewhere in-between. So whilst your point that he earns good money could merit consideration, I don't think it carries much weight at the moment as it's too speculative.
Having said that, I think your point about the updates being more content light then they have been in the past is valid. I've also noticed that as well. I can also see how some one could see it as "The more he earns, the less content you get. The suspicion can arise.".
However, I still think it's a stretch to assume (as others have, I don't know if you meant this) it's intentional, malicious or that he's being lazy. It's possible sure, but outside of speculation we have no reason to think so and it would be assuming the worse, which people on here seem way too ready to do.
There are also good potential explanations for why this might be. The scope of the project and and how it works under the hood has changed pretty dramatically from the first iteration. For example, the old system he used for displaying images was very simple, it was just displaying a base image, with l layered image on top. I don't know the exact mechanics, but based on how I've seen the scenes work and the base assets, the new system is more involved and complex. Almost every image is a multi layered composite, in order to support things like dynamic clothing, allowing for scene variation and easier additions later in development. Supporting that system would mean more development time for the creation of each scene as it has to account for all the linked assets and the states the scene can exist in, as well as a system to manage how and when those states exist. The benefit is you get more mileage out of each scene with more variation and it less time later on should the dev want to add more variants to it, but the trade off is more time creating the scene initially.
I want to be clear, this may not be an applicable reason, I could be entirely wrong about this, or it may not be the sole explanation for things like the drop of in content volume for each update, but given what I know about the game and the work involved, something like this seems far more likely to me then assuming the dev is milking his supporters.
I don't know why the content, at least as far as the user experiences it, for each update is lighter than it was in the past. I think that is a valid criticism and expressing that sentiment is valid and might warrant an explanation from the dev, especially if his supporters share in that criticism. The crux of what I'm saying is we simply don't know enough to say with any level of certainty why that is and that there are a lot of potential good reasons that explain it. It gets old seeing people on these forums immediately assume the worse and engage in bad faith assumptions. It's lazy and toxic af.
I think you make a very valid point. Of course there are plenty of examples, both within the space of adult games, and in the gaming industry more broadly, where devs can and have taken their support for granted and not delivered. I'm not saying, and I hope peoples take away from this isn't that we shouldn't call them out for it. I'm saying that we shouldn't make knee-jerk assumptions and jump to conclusions about the dev's motives and intent. The only thing that's good for is killing the project. Half the content on F95 is typically choosing beggars complaining about devs milking their shill supporters whilst waiting for and ironically begging those very same supporters they deride to leak updates. It's fucking cringe.
If you can give credit to this dev for anything, it would be that they have continued to work on the project and have consistently gotten 3-4 updates out each year for multiple years now. In my mind they've demonstrated consistency and I think that deserves acknowledgement, especially when being critical of them. I've been pretty outspoken about some of the issues I've had with the project in the past and both the dev and other people associated with the project engaged with my criticism and feedback in good faith and with an open mind. The least we can do is extend that courtesy by default.
Do I wish they'd do certain things differently? Definitely, it's why I'm currently not supporting the game, but still check in on it. Do I think the content has been pretty light in recent patches? Yeah and I don't really understand why they've been so light in comparison to older patches and I think an explanation is warranted at this point (which seems to be what you were advocating for) with a plan on how to rectify it. In about the same span of time the dev has been working on the rebuild version, we've made less than half the progress than in the first iteration. I think frustration around that fact is warranted and the devs haven't done the best job at communicating on that issue. Do I think the dev is a lazy milker who just edges his supporters on keep them paying? No, that seems pretty brain dead to me with nothing to support it.
Holy wall of text, sorry. Kudos if you read this far.
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for reference if anyone is interested.
The average salary in Russia is 80,000-90,000 rub ($786-885) $15,000, probably politicians/deputies receive and not ordinary people.
in addition to Patreon, he also has a boosty.
The average salary in Russia is 80,000-90,000 rub ($786-885) $15,000, probably politicians/deputies receive and not ordinary people.
in addition to Patreon, he also has a boosty.
For the reason I've mentioned in my last post, using a countries average salary as the sole metric doesn't make sense in this context given that the value of that income is relative to the dev's personal circumstances.
Having said that, do we know how much he makes on Boosty? I failed to consider that and if it is a similar amount to Patreon then it would might lend credence to thinman78's first point and might go against what I've said about the dev not being about to expand his team. If it is roughly the same (effectively doubling the income), then I think what I've said still makes sense, but if its a lot more then yeah, not a good look. It'd make it a lot easier to be critical of the devs.
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Yeah if that's over the course of the games development, approx 4 years, that's not a lot at all.
If that's every month.... where's my pitchfork at.
this is not for all the time and the goal that the author sets can change when he wants.
found 3 copies in the web-arhive and more have already been collected there than now.
so definitely not all the time.
By the way, I read about boosty and realized that "goals" are one-time donations and not money from subscribers
found 3 copies in the web-arhive and more have already been collected there than now.
so definitely not all the time.
By the way, I read about boosty and realized that "goals" are one-time donations and not money from subscribers
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You almost always get content early on as dev wants to build fan base for game, but just about every dev on here slows down development as soon as they get decent amount of supporters, this is the main reason I don't pay if I support you I should feel as though I'm getting something for my money.
Squirtoslav
Member
- Sep 3, 2022
- 362
- 780
Agree, I am willing to pay a one time fair price for a completed game or at lease you can promise monthly decent update for my monthly subscription fee.
rafa30
Engaged Member
- Aug 2, 2017
- 3,832
- 2,573