Java Corrupted Saviors [Release 61b] [CSDev]

[Nobody032]

Im reviewing the save, you have a skill I just dont -_-

day 6 one of them tempted and the other one already with the 2 breaks is impressive

edit : 16 ee used on upgrades by day 6 means you perfectly got e.e from each forsaken as they appeared?

edit2: I tried doing the second orgy, it was...impossible. at 1/1000 damage plus the extra reduction from the undead even the 4 type commander didnt bringer over 1000 damage
The maneuver forsaken also does less than 100 so im lost

That save is actually after I bought a few 2ee upgrades. I think I had spent 8 energy before I got Temptation. Everyone other than Reign was doing +2 generation before the temptation. I had to wait like 2 days too in order to get enough ee to send Cheer again and buy extermination/Evacuation upgrade which lead up to that point(Sometimes it's better to do this than deploying everyday)
Honestly if Cheer was a species forsaken with release then the early damage would have been higher since you can Max out turns way better with releasing at right times.
One thing I should mention is that she was reaching 10k expo in the capture when I was going for aversion at day 19 if I played normally. I had to not use Barrier and instead taunt her twice(To get expo penalty) to prevent that from happening.


Reign is pretty much impossible to damage with 1/1000 reduction. After getting aversion it's better to just train your forsaken or get tempt requirement down (though I doubt you would need to do this). You just need to beat/kill both her partners in the final battle.

Btw She starts with an extra 1/10 reduction at loop 14 and will probably have 1/100 in loop 21. So be prepared for that. You need to get a new break on her each time to win in the final battle.

Would be nice if she got 50% punisher from Propaganda item but I think CSdev probably accounted for that though I don't have the item so I am not sure.

 

[Nobody032]

A question for people, especially those who take Splendor at loop 10: how do your loop 14s go? You have the -50% damage to devil, and at 14 Reign usually has one of them. Usually the goal of my loops at least is to get 1 (or 2, if I am stacking megalomania for my eventual angel) distortion + 2 T4 breaks with punishers on every chosen, and have enough time to train any good potential forsakens, and for loop 14 also finally make Reign into a forsaken so I can get rid of the -10% motivation debuff ASAP. I feel like loop 14 is one of the only places that I have consistent issues with. I can get the distortions, but I can't seem to get the trauma needed for repeated T4s, especially given that I can't setup big (20+ turns orgies) without getting Reign into T3 territory and fucking everything.

I am wondering if it is because I chose to go negotiation + 2x aversion with no newspaper, with makes my EE gains really poor compared to what I am used too, or if Reign + Splendor + devil is actually difficult, or I am just misplaying.

Even on my previous run with 3x tempt I had issues, but that was more because I greeded for a T4 break on Reign at loop 7 so I was stuck trying to get 1M PLEA on Reign in the final battle with a 1/100 damage modifier, and Reign refused to ever use fantasize until the final battle for some reason.

Wait you can actually turn Reign into a forsaken? I thought she would just run away so I just got my 2 t3 breaks and let her get away in loop 14. I usually go for megalomaniac on Splendor then to Victory so the motivation loss is gone for me from loop 15.

The loop I chose had 2 Animalistic chosen I think so can't really answer that. I did distortion-> All breaks on one of the chosen and did Rampage for the other one if I remember right.

 

[fenyx]

I don't see why you need to do the second orgy; in fact I would argue saving her for loop 14 is better (if you are going for Splendor of course). The damage reduction (partially) resets at the end of loop.

I have propaganda in this game, my idea was to inmediatelly distort reign so I could negotiate mostly the rest of the game,and coast out of that
I usually do 1 loop per day, sometimes I get stuck and need 2 days to pass the loop
Last 2 months I have fallen behind. I was unable to get to love (played judgement wrong for some days)
Changed my playstyle because I wanted to see other vignettes and discovered that without the usual rampant forsaken and their tantrums, you almost have no motivation to do anything (at least the way I play) and thought it was a bug.

(you guys have this game down to a T , I mostly try things until it works, and sometimes just take longer or just dont do it at all...my understanding of the game is half intuition because I just dont undertand the math behind it, im playing by observing and try and error)

And then Reign was released.
Everything I was reading in the forum was giving me this idea: "It probably will be easier to inmediatelly distort her than to let her run away" and that was what I was trying to do.

Btw She starts with an extra 1/10 reduction at loop 14 and will probably have 1/100 in loop 21. So be prepared for that. You need to get a new break on her each time to win in the final battle.

Would be nice if she got 50% punisher from Propaganda item but I think CSdev probably accounted for that though I don't have the item so I am not sure.

There goes my strategy

Wait you can actually turn Reign into a forsaken? I thought she would just run away so I just got my 2 t3 breaks and let her get away in loop 14. I usually go for megalomaniac on Splendor then to Victory so the motivation loss is gone for me from loop 15.

I think i have read around the forum somebody did and the game bugged(and that csdev repaired it) but my memory is fuzzy sometimes.



So... what is your current plan for the game? letting reign run again and again?

My earlier strategy (before love and reign were introduced) was to pick splendor first so more of her penalties were turned into bonus . I had a hard time using a notorious rampant undead, barely winning against victory (and losing the next 2 loops), then I discovered "The power of Temptation TM" and the game became so much easier I havent looked back.
Then I started trying to see vignettes I havent before, and the last 2 months I have fallen behind. Also looked at the wiki and scrapped my save because since reign appears en loop 7 and I already played that, I wanted to play from zero

Some of my plans are unfeasible due to misconceptions around some things about how the game truly works (I thought for example that motivation recharged by it itself just like stamina)

The first time I played this game was at the beggining when there was no Campaign, forgot about it for months (probably even 2 years) and then discovered this was still ongoing, and updated a lot so I jumped into it again

At the time there were no items either (or I didnt find them in the game ) so Im playing the game as if tomorrow newspaper was a cheat (maybe I should abandon this way of thinking,because Im starting to think that csdev considers tomorrows newspaper to be the normal dificulty)
After all, I was able to beat loop 1 without items (there were also no distortions at the time) and without completely understanding the game (pride is a weird thing, isnt it?)

 

[frederikp95]

I know the resources doc mentions links that are 'not official', but it's a little sad that the into guide on the wiki is useless, since the rar download on the page no longer works... I WANT to get into this game...

What I would like to see is a way to import a roster for single play, then someone could make a guide for that roster and (in theory) this guide would never get outdated... I don't know.

I have tried to get into this game 6-7 different times, the longest i made it was tier 1 break, day 12, i think, and i had no idea what i was doing and why it worked.

 

[fenyx]

I know the resources doc mentions links that are 'not official', but it's a little sad that the into guide on the wiki is useless, since the rar download on the page no longer works... I WANT to get into this game...

What I would like to see is a way to import a roster for single play, then someone could make a guide for that roster and (in theory) this guide would never get outdated... I don't know.

I have tried to get into this game 6-7 different times, the longest i made it was tier 1 break, day 12, i think, and i had no idea what i was doing and why it worked.

There are some txt with the game, have you read them?
You will need to have more patience, 12 days is hardly a game, loop 1 is 50 days for example

A problem with your suggestion is that what works with one Chosen doenst necesarily work again, and also some chosen are harder than others by a mile.

How the game works is by doing different types of damage in different ways so that those damage multiply in the right way where you want it (I find "the right way" by trial and error)
Also: the game if full of noobtraps.

For example the early rush takes around 10 days to buy things. then you need only 5 evil energy to get a 4 rounds, 2 capture commander.
That starts the defiling process (that will give you access to more evil energy)

The first few games I played it took forever to discover that using evil energy in other commanders was just sending evil energy into the trash

 

[Nobody032]

So... what is your current plan for the game? letting reign run again and again?

Honestly when I first read about Reign being a reoccurring boss I thought that she would a boss who we will be breaking over the time of her encounters culminating into a final fight at loop 35 along with one other boss before going to face Crown(Or with Crown herself if she is supposed to come at loop 35).

Considering the fact my current item upgrade choices include the "5M requirement for T3 breaks" and "Free motivation for tempted forsaken" (Both of which I would consider a waste of influence personally) I am thinking of just going back and doing the other Reign fight with the devil/animalistic combo.

I mean I play with mostly trial and error too. Usually I will try to make sure I get the most out of the day I do deployments which includes a decent amount of retries and reloads. Mostly your focus should be on getting openings and getting expo levels(Sometimes it's better to start your surround with Humiliate to get level 2/3 expo)

For example you have a Hate/Plea second in command which means usually it's better to release early to get expo levels since you will get 11~ openings even by releasing the chosen early. Manuvering should be left for the last chosen(Who is most difficult to break).

Also it's usually better to release the first chosen just before the second chosen you wanna capture arrives so you can surround the first. Leaving two chosens free, doubles the rate of your extermination.

 

[fenyx]

I mean I play with mostly trial and error too. Usually I will try to make sure I get the most out of the day I do deployments which includes a decent amount of retries and reloads. Mostly your focus should be on getting openings and getting expo levels(Sometimes it's better to start your surround with Humiliate to get level 2/3 expo)

besides the reign thing... what distortion do you want each boss in?

 

[Yddrasil]

Wait you can actually turn Reign into a forsaken?

Sure you can; here's Reign on my first save. She has no content and basically unusable, but it saves me from having to deal with her on loop 21 or (god forbid) loop 28.

It's probably "optimal" in the long term to go for 2 T3 + T4 break on loop 7, distortion + T4 on loop 14 and finally get her on loop 21 before she starts with 1/1000 damage reduction; this way you get 100% damage on 2 types in exchange for a slight delay on Splendor breaks (the +2 influence is basically a heavyweight item if you can get it early) and no Reign distortion for loops 8 to 14 (which, given that Splendor is probably your boss choice, doesn't contain any hard fights anyways). But honestly getting just 1 T4 break + 1 T2 break was hard enough on loop 7 and I wasn't willing to spend another week trying to optimise loop 7 for a T3.

what distortion do you want each boss in?

I am quite curious has to what other people have plans for the bosses; in my opinion except for the passives (which are very situation but "free") no boss really has a standout distortion, so usually I just roleplay with them. From mostly looking at them, without that much experience:

Splendor:
Splendor's super easy to analyse, because there is nothing surrounding her distortions: she has the same stats no matter how she is broken, and there is only 3 options. Most of her benefits come from her passives anyways. As an aside, one thing you can do with Splendor is by bargaining to raise the next loop's difficulty/remove her debuff to loop difficulty/sacrifice item to gain influence, you can change which items are offered.

Her punishers are:

• Grateful Breeder (+own training consent modifier per Impregnation)
• Wiping Hypnotist (-victim anger about loved one mistreatment)
• Gluttonous Harvester (+own Stamina regeneration rate per Drain)
• Underhanded Publicist (-% Parasitism Effectiveness required for Parasitism)

Maybe underhanded is useful? But at least for the punishers there is little reason to keep her at low disgrace.

You probably want to do her on loop 10, to get her buffs faster; I am not even certain that this is harder than Victory -> Splendor, at least if you are aiming to complete campaign, but this is speculative (see Despair section below).

• No Distortion (1/6 EE cost instead of 1/4 I think, not that it makes a difference)
  • Technically an option, but without any damage buffs she will never be that strong in combat, so her EE cost doesn't matter. But again, most of her benefits are from her passives, so this is always an easy way out (you don't even have to touch Splendor to beat her this way) while getting 90+% of the rewards.
  • This is also the only way to get Splendor buffs without going megalomania, so it is possible to want this.
• Megalomania (can't get non-boss second-in-commands, can flip another debuff when getting a boss second-in-command)
  • This is quite interesting, both to get her buffs quicker and to have effectively another maneuver forsaken. I still think maneuver is bad (or at least very very situational), and she won't be a standout damage dealer without being second-in-command.
  • Her ability to capture without spend a turn is wild though; 3 turns is basically 2/3 upgrades in terms of fight duration, and HATE/PLEA type can get big surrounds, allowing to get big orgies relatively early if she is a relatively high disgrace forsaken that can be deployed early. Very powerful, though you can't really access it all that fast so it might fall off before you can get it; she doesn't have any big damage buffs after all.
  • I don't see a point keeping her at low disgrace; high EE cost forsakens can do much more than this.
  • You need to want to have another boss second-in-command though, so consider whether you actually want another boss in this role, otherwise you can get stuck with her for a long time, and can't stack the megalomania achievement.
  • Probably the default option, though personally I think the other bosses have better things to do than being stuck in megalomania. I am the resident megalomania hater though, so take that as you will.
• Despair (just gets rid of her)
  • Since you can't sacrifice her, this is the only way not to deal with her bullshit. It's probably not worth it as it removes late game potential, but if you can't beat other bosses with Splendor debuffs you can try this; the despair rework does make it a lot easier to achieve too.
  • As an aside, I wonder if the EE generating items might need to be slightly buffed because a big use for them will be gone with the despair rework. Also Qliphotic Easing looks to be complete ass for a heavyweight, expecially with the +20 starting EE item being in the same tier. Have to use it 5 times to be "better", ignoring the time value of money EE, than Broken shackles, and you still have to repay it.
  • The main calculus would be that you are getting an easier Reign/Victory/Love/Judgment fight for a harder Wisdom/Reason/Crown?/Basis? fight; it's impossible to know if this is worth it without the campaign mode being complete so...
  • The despair bonus is minor since you probably don't have the angel achievement up yet. I think she get the +evacuation bonus, which very good to accelerate later loops, though she won't give all that much.

I wanted to write like a sentence about every boss, but I wrote way to much, and Splendor's the simplest one; I think I'll split this up.

 

[fenyx]

Sure you can; here's Reign on my first save. She has no content and basically unusable, but it saves me from having to deal with her on loop 21 or (god forbid) loop 28.

Did you break her in loop 7, or in 14/21?

 

[Yddrasil]

Did you break her in loop 7, or in 14/21?

T3 INN, then T2 DIG and then (barely) T4 INN on loop 7; tempt on loop 14 and then tempted her in the final battle when she used fantasize.

 

[fenyx]

T3 INN, then T2 DIG and then (barely) T4 INN on loop 7; tempt on loop 14 and then tempted her in the final battle when she used fantasize.

ooooh ok that checks out.

I thought at first someone broke her at 7 and I was wondering how to FUCKING DO THAT BECAUSE IT MAKES NO SENSE (breath in, breath out)

 

[Yddrasil]

ooooh ok that checks out.

I thought at first someone broke her at 7 and I was wondering how to FUCKING DO THAT BECAUSE IT MAKES NO SENSE (breath in, breath out)

500% resolve is not unbeatable once you have a T4 break, even with 1/1000 circumstance. You would have to forfeit the distortion though. Megalomania/Despair can also work, but the other ones are a bit rough yeah.

 

[fenyx]

500% resolve is not unbeatable once you have a T4 break, even with 1/1000 circumstance. You would have to forfeit the distortion though. Megalomania/Despair can also work, but the other ones are a bit rough yeah.

I was joking, I will have to follow your method, but doing and orgy at the last day instead of tempting.
Except the thing is , I was trying to avert her.... without fantasizing, maybe the orgy if she uses the morality move?

Maybe I should restart reign and do a t2 and t3 break instead of 2 different t2?

This game would be so much easier if the chosen didnt regenerate during the fight... like 3 to 4 times easier

 

[Yddrasil]

I was joking, I will have to follow your method, but doing and orgy at the last day instead of tempting.
Except the thing is , I was trying to avert her.... without fantasizing, maybe the orgy if she uses the morality move?

Maybe I should restart reign and do a t2 and t3 break instead of 2 different t2?

This game would be so much easier if the chosen didnt regenerate during the fight... like 3 to 4 times easier

I kinda feel bad making you follow my method that I didn't even test myself. It's very possible that the early orgies are not enough to get T4s and 100EE actions. I'm also kinda used to hardworking publicist undeads, so I might be overestimating the forsakens.

But yes after an orgy u need to break a T2 MOR/CON immediately in the next fight.

 

[Yddrasil]

Victory:

As the counterpart to Splendor, she appropriately focuses on direct combat effects, both as Chosen and as Forsaken. Her punishers are:

• Charming Breeder (+victim max Motivation)
• Instructive Hypnotist (+victim PLEA damage as Forsaken)
• Memorable Harvester (+victim INJU damage as Forsaken)
• Hardworking Publicist (+victim trauma damage as Forsaken)

and wowee these are some punishers, with all of them useful (though she doesn't buff herself) and Hardworking Publicist being one of the best punishers in the game. At this point you had enough loops such that you probably don't need to base your decision exclusively on punishers, but given that she can potentially do all 4 usefully, she can definitely save you some days in later loops by breaking all T4s simultaneously. Definitely can be an argument for not breaking her DIG.

You can fight her on loops 10 or 15 (or 20, if you did Judgment on 15, which is definitely one of the choices of all time). The decision is probably more based upon when do you want to fight Splendor, and I have argued before on doing Splendor first. However, one thing to consider is that getting angel achievement rolling earlier can make the next fights easier; sparing angels can give you bonuses equivalent or better than the 20+ influence items for extermination and evacuation, so there is a point to be made there, as compared to the devils, which have a decent bonus (but ultimately more easily replaceable) but also sucks ass to fight.

• No distortion (+125% or +150% damage; these are not in the wiki so I am just assuming, shows how much people are interested in not distorting the bosses I guess)
  • For the circumstances targeted by the distortions, this is strictly worse than the distortion damage bonus as they stack multiplicatively instead.
  • If you want to keep Victory and a mid/high cost nuker that targets 3 types of damage, this can be an option, since you can get 3/4 punishers; although Negotiation/Megalomania is still better, in exchange for potentially doing less trauma without a punisher.
  • At lower costs though, it's harder to justify not just getting the distortion bonus, since you would prefer to target only 2 types anyways.
  • Sometimes a W is a W and you just have to take it though; it's not the end of the world not to get a distortion.
• Rampage (+100% damage, stamina cost of 1%; I am just listing the difference to a base animalistic)
  • If you are using rampage Forsakens as your basic damage dealer, then for most intents and purposes Victory is a straight upgrade. You have to go to unreasonably low EE cost for her to be outperformed damage-wise vs. undeads.
  • If you do want undead rampagers still (for Hot Tag shenanigans, for example), then you would probably avoid this, just to avoid having too many rampagers tantruming, though sticking one of them as trainer can fix this.
  • It’s just a straight damage upgrade, so depending on how attractive the other options are and what you lack, it's not necessary.
  • The 1% stamina cost would synergize with megaloLove, but you can’t get that version of megaloLove when Victory is a forsaken, so there is very little reason to care about it.
• Negotiation (+400% damage, decreased by 10% of total value each deployment)
  • If you think you might have issues with a boss (Judgment), this can definitely solve that.
  • With 400% damage it's probably better as a mid cost forsaken with 3 damage types; it feels like overkill to have a high-cost as well.
  • Suffers from the fact that megaloVictory does something very similar while being also useful against non-bosses.
  • You don’t have to be that sparing with it though; use her 4 times (Judgment, Love, Wisdom, Reason) and you are still sitting at 262% for Crown potentially, which is higher than most Forsakens still.
• Aversion (passive; +20% to bosses, +20% to animalistics)
  • A passive buff means that this is probably a backup choice if nothing is missing from your forsaken roster; however, given that Victory can fill some pretty unique niches, and that negoVictory/megaloVictory are already boss killers, the boss damage seems quite pointless.
  • Given that you have presumably beat Victory and 2 animalistics, I am not certain the animalistic +20% is particularly relevant either.
  • If you want to negotiate Love, this increases to 50% to bosses and 100% for animalistics, in exchange for 2 bosses being effectively useless in combat. I think that both Victory and Love can do much better though.
• Temptation (+100% damage, cycles between moods)
  • Besides being unwieldy, this is numerically not that as good as it might seem at first: she can get higher expertise (let’s say +5% damage) and has +100% PLEA/EXPO, so 410% PLEA/EXPO that is unique to her. Comparatively, a well trained animalistic temptation with the same cost would be +50% from animalistic, +~80% from motivation, and +20% from Splendor which Victory cannot access because she keeps tantruming (this is assumed; but I’m not sure how much motivation damage the tantrum actually does), for 324%. 86% is a decent difference, bigger than a rampageVictory vs. a rampage animalistic, but that is only in 1 out of 4 days, and waiting 3 days is not a trivial number in late game.
  • As such, she can’t become your basic damage dealer (as rampageVictory), but she can’t nuke as hard as negoVictory/megaloVictory.
  • There is also the overkill problem, where a decent animalistic tempted Forsaken can tempt anything anyways, and once tempted the extra damage stops mattering, so Victory’s extra damage doesn’t contribute to much in a lot of cases.
  • If you want to use her, a middle tier EE cost would probably be preferred with INJU/EXPO or HATE/INJU, to capitalize on her strengths; tempting non-tempted Chosens can result in some big orgies this way.
• Megalomania (+100% damage, +50% to bosses)
  • 300% to bosses is a lot of damage. Comparing her and the achievement (300% and 45%, for 435%) vs. negoVictory with angelic second-in-command (400% and 15%, for also 460%) gives quite a favorable comparison after the second usage, though it does remove the 15% buff to all Forsakens that the angelic commander gives.
  • This does prevent you from further stacking the achievement unless you want to ruin Victory, though certain items and megaloLove can fix this.
  • This is also probably what you would want if you went for megaloSplendor.
  • As with negoVictory, high EE cost is probably overkill in most situations, especially given that you want to use pack hunting early and often.
  • Probably default choice.
• Despair without break (?)
  • No clue, depends on the rework.
• Despair with break (+100% damage, +50% INJU/EXPO, unique defiler)
  • The unique defiler (resets extermination with do nothing if it's not full yet) is most likely equivalent to 3 to 5 turns, given that extermination scales exponentially. However, unlike megaloSplendor, despairVictory needs to be free, which makes it a bit awkward to use since ideally she is capturing someone to prepare for the orgy, and once the orgy starts the extermination bar does not matter anymore.
  • Theoretically, her main usage should be resetting extermination before capturing the third chosen, such that the orgy starts before any chosen can fly, so you can orgy again for a total of 25+ rounds.
  • 300% INJU/EXPO is quite unique, though not getting any trauma multiplier makes this a pretty poor combo; release might be your best friend here.
  • I would guess that she wants to be lowish EE cost to accelerate the loop with early orgies, but not too low since a HATE/INJU/EXPO style might be good. honestly would love to hear from people who actually used her.

Summary: Megalomania > Negotiation/Despair > Rampage > Tempt > Aversion

 

[Nobody032]

besides the reign thing... what distortion do you want each boss in?

Right now I am going for Megalomaniac on Splendor->Victory->Love. Not sure what I am going with for Judgement as from what I remember she doesn't exactly have any distortion effect impressive enough to consider.

Kinda wish I had a -ee cost punisher so Victory could be better as second in command but guess you cant have everything.

Whenever Wisdom will be released I will probably go for negotiations on Victory and Love instead.

Sure you can; here's Reign on my first save. She has no content and basically unusable, but it saves me from having to deal with her on loop 21 or (god forbid) loop 28.

It's probably "optimal" in the long term to go for 2 T3 + T4 break on loop 7, distortion + T4 on loop 14 and finally get her on loop 21 before she starts with 1/1000 damage reduction; this way you get 100% damage on 2 types in exchange for a slight delay on Splendor breaks (the +2 influence is basically a heavyweight item if you can get it early) and no Reign distortion for loops 8 to 14 (which, given that Splendor is probably your boss choice, doesn't contain any hard fights anyways). But honestly getting just 1 T4 break + 1 T2 break was hard enough on loop 7 and I wasn't willing to spend another week trying to optimise loop 7 for a T3.
View attachment 4471496

Oh yeah that's a good point, need to stack damage buff too. Honestly I wasn't really aware before loop 14 that she gets additonal starting reduction so went with t2->t3->t4 route on her appearance. Well I still gotta go back for changing influence though because one of the item upgrade choice right now is straight up negative for me and the other is pointless as of now so I will be losing all that influence for nothing.

Going to fight Devil+ Animaslistic combo. Let's see how that goes.

 

[Yddrasil]

Judgment:
Judgment is awkward, in the same way that all devils are awkward: by reducing every other Forsaken's motivation, it removes Splendor's 20% damage buff, which is probably the first passive to be flipped. Her raw +150% damage makes her slightly better than Victory (+100% and +20%, for 240%), but makes it so no Forsaken can access the 20% buff. I personally don't see much active use for her simply because she is not significantly better than Victory, and you generally don't need 2 nukers.

Continuing the comparison, her punishers are:

• Corrupting Breeder (-victim EE deployment cost)
• Instructive Hypnotist (+victim PLEA damage as Forsaken)
• Memorable Harvester (+victim INJU damage as Forsaken)
• Underhanded Publicist (-% Parasitism Effectiveness required for Parasitism)

Which are very similar to Victory's. Underhanded Publicist can make for 1 or 2 days shaved off a loop if you don't need the Chosen to become a strong Forsaken, but otherwise she is still more or less comparable to Victory so far.

You can fight her on loops 20 or 25 (or 15 if you really hate yourself), but given that the mechanical Chosens are not out yet, a major differentiating factor on choosing Love or Judgment is not present yet. As it is, she is interchangeable in order.

• No distortion (+175% or +200% damage)
  • Exactly the same reasoning applies for Victory as for Judgment, since they are so similar in role.
  • Don't do this. I really doubt the extra T4 break achievement stacks are worth it at loop 20+.
• Rampage (+150% damage, +50% all circumstance, +10% damage per tantrumed Forsaken)
  • You can choose to focus on not improving motivation, and just get a +10% damage boost every day for Judgment; downside is that you might not get to use other Forsakens when you need them.
  • Something like Scarring/Corrupting Breeder and Hardworking Publicist can make it so she would be a relatively low cost Forsaken that can do HATE/INJU or PLEA/INJU and can be used to break any Chosen and trigger most distortions. Afterwards, you would probably want to switch to other Forsakens when you are accumulating EE for the fianl battle though, so she cannot be a solo damage dealer as with an Undead tempt/rampage Forsaken.
  • If that is not appealing though (if you already have a Victory in a similar role, or a very strong Undead or Angel buffed Animalistic), it might be wise to avoid rampaging Judgment.
• Negotiation (+150% damage, +15%/+60% damage per T1/T3 Break by target):
  • T1 and T3 are quite awkward as breakpoints. The ideal first fights later in the loop breaks multiple T2s in a single day, and then distorting and getting 2 or 3 T1s the next. As such negoJugdment doesn't help accelerate this stage of the game. It is in fact very possible (an d quicker, if you do not care about achievements) to win a stage without breaking a T1/T3 to begin with.
  • After you start breaking T3 though, she is suited to creating massive orgies (with traumatize) which is needed to get 50EE downtimes or multiple T4 breaks for achievement stacking against late game damage reductions. I would argue that this isn't a particularly valuable role to fill, since you can shore up EE concerns with Laboratory and getting multiple T4 break achievements has marginal value.
• Aversion (+150% damage, flip an extra Splendor passive)
  • She is potentially the first boss with access to the Orgy defiler, and is a significant upgrade to a devil/animalistic averted forsaken.
  • Defiler orgies are really only great for triggered aversion early, as the damge reduction is huge; and triggering big orgies is what negoJudgment can do as well so combat-wise there is little reason to do this.
  • Her damage is very similar to aversionLove; thus if you just wanted and strong Orgy defiler you would also need to consider what to do with Love as well.
  • As an aside, the wiki claims +50% INJU/EXPO instead of HATE/INJU, which I am assuming is wrong.
  • The Splendor passive part is mixed: you probably removed the -motivation and -devil damage. You can get Reign on 14, Victory on 15 (which can count for 2 if you megalomania-ed Splendor and Victory) and potentially Love on 20, which is 4 chances to flip passives. So you have probably 1 or 2 passives left to flip, and if there is only 1 the extra flip is pointless. If there is 2 left, the "cannot be trained" passive can be left alone without too much harm, and keeping bargains to reroll for items is a legitimate strategy, so there is arguments as to why you would want to NOT flip the passives quickly as well.
• Temptation (passive, +20% damage to bosses and devil)
  • This one is arguably more interesting that aversionVictory. You would already have had an oppurtunity to get a boss nuker, and this can enhance Victory further if you are building an uber-Victory, and damage to devils might still be useful after defeating Judgment.
  • Since the Judgment is somewhat situational to use, the opportunity cost to keep Judgment passive is less as well.
  • This would still depend on how Wisdom/Reason/Crown pans out, since it can be overkill as well.
  • However, see Despair without T4 breaks for potentially better passive.
• Megalomania (+150% damage, deployments reduces all other Forsaken's obedience, training obedience removes other's motivation)
  • Why would you want this; stamina isn't a huge issue if you have more than 1 useable forsaken, so long term this is maybe a 5% damage buff through more training at most for other Forsaken.
  • Seriously am I missing a synergy somewhere?
  • Numerically this is only better than megaloVictory against non-bosses; I really don't see why you would prefer this.
• Despair without T4 breaks (angel no longer absorb from devil, 2x spare bonus)
  • At this point you should have a few angel achievements. If you have level 1, this would give 4x bonus, while simply using another distortion and retiring after getting level 2 achievement would be 3x bonus; the difference would be something like +4 evacuation or +4% extermination. If you already have level 2, it would be a 6x bonus, which is an overall benefit of +12 evac or +12% extermination. That is fairly close to passively having 1 extra round every fight, and this is especially valuable in day 1, allowing for day 1 tempts/rampages which massively accelerate the loop.
  • I would argue this is better than aversionVictory if you have the angel achievement at level 2 or above.
  • Angel no longer absorbing from devils can also simplify future loops significantly if you have issues, and cripples the Love fight.
• Despair with T4 breaks (+150% damage, +50% INJU/EXPO, unique defiler, reduce EE cost based on downtime)
  • The defiler is good when (a) you want to get an orgy before doing distortions, and this prevents you from messing up a future rampage, for example or (b) you really hate Book of Inviolable Taboos and you don't care for the T4 achievement (which is 100% fair, I hate it as well). In either case I think you can just play around it, so its more of a luxury than a necessity.
  • However, combined with the potential day 1 rampage, you can potentially throw out a 30+ EE despairJudgment on day 2 while having Networked Consciousness and/or Barrier and getting T3 (or even T4, see her DIG punisher) breaks on day 3, which generates (with laboratory) enough EE for the final battle on day 4. She looks great if you want to speedrun a loop.

Overall I would say Despair without T4 > Despair with T4 > Temptation > Rampage/Negotiation > Aversion > Megalomania

 

[Yddrasil]

Love:
What to do to Love is heavily dependent on what you did to Victory (and vice-versa, to some extent). Her leader innate is 3x (instead of 2x) retire bonus, which can be an extra 5% damage to orgies or 1 more round a fight, which is always decent as a back up option.

Her punishers are:

• Earnest Breeder (-victim Hostility)
• Careful Hypnotist (-victim Deviancy)
• Timid Harvester (-victim Obedience)
• Demoralizing Publicist (-starting Resolve for all Chosen)

I know it's not possible with the way the punishers are determined, but I am a bit sad that she doesn't have Redeeming Publicist. Furthermore of all -victim corruptions, -disgrace is probably the best one as well. As such, she doesn't have any exceptional punishers to use.

As with Judgment, there is no big reason to do her on loop 20 or 25 yet.

• Rampage (passive, +20% to bosses, +12.5% per angel ally)
  • As with temptJudgment, this can help uber-Victory to nuke bosses. Unlike temptJudgment though, Love has other, potentially better options as well.
  • This passive is especially good against Judgment, so can be considered if you have issues there. therwise, I would not reccomend it.
• Negotiation with aversionVictory (extra +30% nonmultiplicative damage to bosses, +80% to animalistics)
  • This is more of less equivalent to rampageLove, with a bit more boss damage for a les useful damage boost to non-bosses.
  • aversionVictory is bad, and using Love to buff the passive is probably a poor decision unless you are planning to use Judgment as your basic damage dealer. The value of this is again dependent on Wisdom/reason/Crown.
• Negotiation with nobreakdespairVictory (?)
  • No opinion until the rework comes out.
• Negotiation with forsakenVictory (+10% damage to Wisdom and Victory per deploy, no cost to deploy after Wisdom and Victory).
  • Ignoring Wisdom, this would be good on a high EE cost Love and a low-ish cost Victory; but even then without any other damage boost a high cost Love would still be underwhelming. You are essentially giving 10% damage boost every 2 days to Victory, which seems somewhat comparable to rampageJudgment, trading damage for convinience while needing to use up 2 bosses. As of right now that seems underwhelming.
  • The value thus heavily depends on what Wisdom can do.
  • Speculating ahead, the idea of using low cost Wisdom > high cost negoLove > repeat until you are ready to nuke Crown with negoVictory is appealing to the part of my brain that likes big numbers.
• Aversion (+200% damage, x2 capture duration)
  • Very similar damage wise to aversionJudgment, and thus replaceable. However, Love's passive bonuses are better than Judgment's, so the opportunity cost is higher for aversionLove.
  • The x2 capture duration means that you would need to use 1 to 3 more releases as well, and you would not get significantly greater duration except on the third Chosen; as such it's probably not very good.
• Temptation (passive, +20% damage to Chosen with no MOR/CON breaks)
  • In a scenario well you want tempts on future bosses, this is almost strictly better than the other damage passives.
  • Whether you want this is thus very simple: if you want tempts it's great, if you are not fcusing on tempts then it's almost useless.
• Megalomania with aversionVictory/nobreakdespairVictory (+1/2 of remaining stamina as damage to all Forsakens, remove all remaining stamina)
  • Another big (potentially +40%) damage passive for every Forsaken. Since it's multiplicative, assuming you have enough Forsaken to constantly have 100%+ stamina, this raises non-boss Forsakens to boss levels (for example, rampageAnimalistic is almost equivalent to rampageVictory) and raises Judgment even further.
  • A setup with megaloLove, a few strong low cost undead/animalistic Forsakens and a high-cost Judgment as nuker is probably overall just as strong if not stronger than a setup focusing on megaloVictory and megaloLove.
  • Playstyle-dependent.
• Megalomania (Reinstates Victory as second-in-command, +50% damage to Victory)
  • Are you basing your strategy around Victory? If so, get this.
  • This also help mitigate megaloVictory's downside of not being able to stack the achievement.
  • Depends on the future, but this definitely pushes for a low cost Victory or low-mid cost 3-type Victory to minimise overkill.
  • There is also the option of giving negoVictory the megalomania bonus for real big numbers.
• Despair (2x bonus from sparing)
  • I assume that it stacks with her innate 3x bonus, which gives, with achievements, I think 20% damage to surrounded chosen, or 100 evacuation or 100% extermination. That is of similar value to the other passives, but without the restrictions.
  • If it doesn't, that would seem like an oversight, though the precise wording of Angel Leader does imply this.
  • If so there is a world where 4 stacks of the despair achievement is worth getting over the extra sparing bonus, but that world is very improbable.

Overall, I'd say Megalomania (either version, depending on playstyle) > Despair (of it does stack) > Temptation (situational) > Sparing > Negotiation (for now) > Aversion > Rampage > Despair (if the multiplication does not stack). I think a big fork in the road is based around which version of megaloLove you would want to have, which influences what Judgment and Victory will be.

 

[TheFakeOne23]

Hi, 2 bugs I´ve noticed during character creation (campaign):

Custom clothing and weapons frequently either disapper and leave her base outfit as nude, or revert to a default outfit. I think it has something to do with race, because it didn´t happen (at least not yet) with basic human chosen, so far I´ve only confirmed it happening to undeads and angels, but the other non-base humans might have the same issue.
*Edit: Finishing the chosen and then editing their clothes afterwards seems to function properly, but I´ll have to check with the other affected ones tomorrow, right now I´m too annoyed and tired to continue testing.

Not a huge bug, but I´ve noticed that when trying to enter a custom race name for angels specifically it simply reverts to the last selected pre-made race name (Other races seem unaffected when I tested them)

And yes, I´m using the latest version.

 

[DisasterOnLegs]

I wanted to write like a sentence about every boss, but I wrote way to much, and Splendor's the simplest one; I think I'll split this up.

Hey Yddrasil, you mind if I compact these in .txt files with/without the commentary and post here for other people? Maybe it's about time to compile guides from f95 and include them in the main post, who knows...