Java Corrupted Saviors [Release 66] [CSDev]

[Antivash]

So much of the things people ask for explanations on over and over are contained in the guides that come with the game.

It is most certainly not. It explains the concept of how its intended to work but it in no way, shape or form explains this:

So for the Dignity T3 break it's not actually obvious that the Adaptation is only usable while not surrounded, especially considering all the T1 Adaptations require being surrounded to use.

These are the only ones that are in any way helpful or unambiguous.



Innocent's "Deal High PLEA damage" and Dignity's "Deal EXPO damage while others are surrounded" are complete garbage and the guide does nothing to clarify anything. What, exactly, does high PLEA mean? Do I need to use Forced Orgasm? Caress? How about Inseminate, that does hate and pleasure damage according to the guide, does that count? If the actual trigger for breaking T3 dignity is the chosen using Striptease, then the in game description is garbage and should be replaced with "Force to use Striptease" or something like that. Because as it stands, it makes it sound like you need to actively do something to the chosen, and not just wait until they use striptease. Being intentionally ambiguous with story elements is fine, but when it comes to communicating how mechanics function, its not. Its garbage game design and/or communication.

TL;DR: The "guide" is really only useful if you want to understand the theory and not the practical. And that makes it kind of useless when you are confronted with ambiguous nonsense like "Deal EXPO damage while others are surrounded". Quoting Yogi Berra: "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is."

On an unrelated note: Are the requirements in the vignette checklist hard limits or can they trigger outside of them?

[ ] Guilty Service
One subject with Morality as Core Vulnerability
Subject must have T1 Innocence Break, T1 Confidence Break, and 100k unresolved SHAM

Like can this one trigger after T2 innocent breaks or higher SHAM levels?

 

[McHuman]

It is most certainly not. It explains the concept of how its intended to work but it in no way, shape or form explains this:

These are the only ones that are in any way helpful or unambiguous.
View attachment 2971241
View attachment 2971242

Innocent's "Deal High PLEA damage" and Dignity's "Deal EXPO damage while others are surrounded" are complete garbage and the guide does nothing to clarify anything. What, exactly, does high PLEA mean? Do I need to use Forced Orgasm? Caress? How about Inseminate, that does hate and pleasure damage according to the guide, does that count? If the actual trigger for breaking T3 dignity is the chosen using Striptease, then the in game description is garbage and should be replaced with "Force to use Striptease" or something like that. Because as it stands, it makes it sound like you need to actively do something to the chosen, and not just wait until they use striptease. Being intentionally ambiguous with story elements is fine, but when it comes to communicating how mechanics function, its not. Its garbage game design and/or communication.

TL;DR: The "guide" is really only useful if you want to understand the theory and not the practical. And that makes it kind of useless when you are confronted with ambiguous nonsense like "Deal EXPO damage while others are surrounded". Quoting Yogi Berra: "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is."

On an unrelated note: Are the requirements in the vignette checklist hard limits or can they trigger outside of them?


Like can this one trigger after T2 innocent breaks or higher SHAM levels?

Yeah, Innocence and and Dignity's are really bad. Honestly I'm not even sure on the strict requirement for them either. I think you need to get them to hit either level 2 or 3 in the circumstance and then they automatically used the associated Adaptation when its available, but I'm not certain. Though to be fair, the current descriptions are better than just saying "get the Chosen to use X Adaptation" considering newer players likely wouldn't even know what those are, and a lot of people don't read the guide. They're not good don't get me wrong, but they're better than just saying to have the Chosen use an ability the player hasn't seen yet and doesn't know about.

As for vignettes, I'm not sure but I want to say that unless the vignette specifically says they can't have a certain break (for example, Blackmailed requires not having broken T2 Dignity), then the listed requirements are just minimum. Cause while I might be wrong, I swear I've gotten the vignettes that only require a T1 break while having higher breaks in the vulnerability.

 

[Madeni]

It is most certainly not. It explains the concept of how its intended to work but it in no way, shape or form explains this:

These are the only ones that are in any way helpful or unambiguous.
View attachment 2971241
View attachment 2971242

Innocent's "Deal High PLEA damage" and Dignity's "Deal EXPO damage while others are surrounded" are complete garbage and the guide does nothing to clarify anything. What, exactly, does high PLEA mean? Do I need to use Forced Orgasm? Caress? How about Inseminate, that does hate and pleasure damage according to the guide, does that count? If the actual trigger for breaking T3 dignity is the chosen using Striptease, then the in game description is garbage and should be replaced with "Force to use Striptease" or something like that. Because as it stands, it makes it sound like you need to actively do something to the chosen, and not just wait until they use striptease. Being intentionally ambiguous with story elements is fine, but when it comes to communicating how mechanics function, its not. Its garbage game design and/or communication.

TL;DR: The "guide" is really only useful if you want to understand the theory and not the practical. And that makes it kind of useless when you are confronted with ambiguous nonsense like "Deal EXPO damage while others are surrounded". Quoting Yogi Berra: "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is."

On an unrelated note: Are the requirements in the vignette checklist hard limits or can they trigger outside of them?


Like can this one trigger after T2 innocent breaks or higher SHAM levels?

I think I agree with this statement.
After reading the guide, I believe what this game needs is a proper tutorial in game with a concrete example of how to perform the breaks and how to progress overall.
I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to understand how all those mechanics interact with one-another without a step-by step explanation on how to play the game.
The GOAL system is a step in the right direction but ultimately not enough because it doesn't tell you what are the requirements for getting the effects it wants you to trigger.

It honestly made me think about when I wanted to learn how to play Jack-o-Ninetails. A huge pain in the butt to comprehend the basic mechanics, which was made even more frustrating by the fact that the game didn't need to be this obtuse to begin with because the systems are complex enough to be a challenge on their own.

In both cases the fantasy being sold is excellent with great situations but burried under a confusing and opaque learning curve.
But at least when I was trying to learn Jack-o-Ninetails I could feel when I was on the right track.
Here I could be doing the "correct" thing and still feel like no progress is being made somehow, that's very weird. And since I'm not 100% confident I'm indeed doing the right thing, I start questioning myself and wondering why nothing is changing.

And reading the reviews for this game, I feel validated in this opinion because many of the 4-5 star ratings also point out all those issues as massive pains in the butt to deal with.

But... when it works, it's fantastic, and that I also agree on. There were some very special moments that happened in my short period playing it (3-4h)
I'll keep trying, but I'm losing hope.

 

[Antivash]

I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to understand how all those mechanics interact with one-another without a step-by step explanation on how to play the game.
The GOAL system is a step in the right direction but ultimately not enough because it doesn't tell you what are the requirements for getting the effects it wants you to trigger.

I don't think it needs a step-by-step example, because in most instances its pretty clear what needs what. Like with Drain. You see Chosen using Striptease and Fantasize while not surrounded or captured and can be led to believe Detonate should be the same, but when it only seems to happen to captured Chosen, its pretty easy to link the logic to "Oh, I have to increase this by doing that." That isn't there when the game is telling you to actively do something but is expecting something else entirely different.

The primary issue is that what is communicated is almost entirely theory and not concrete information about specific things. Like Drain and Detonate are easy enough to work out and figure out on your own. Morality and Confidence breaks are very well explained in game. I don't understand how those things can be fine, but Innocence and Dignity get this ambiguous shit. Like, if those two things are the only ones that got more detail, that would be fine with me.

But... when it works, it's fantastic, and that I also agree on. There were some very special moments that happened in my short period playing it (3-4h)
I'll keep trying, but I'm losing hope.

Yeah, I really enjoy both Jack and this. Especially this. But when indication that you are doing something wrong is that you failed to do whatever, with no further details than "it didnt work" to go on, its gets stupidly frustrating.

 

[Dasneaky]

what do forskaen do btw

 

[Antivash]

what do forskaen do btw

Essentially the same role as commanders. On top of the T4 break, they can also cause t2 breaks.

 

[McHuman]

I think I agree with this statement.
After reading the guide, I believe what this game needs is a proper tutorial in game with a concrete example of how to perform the breaks and how to progress overall.
I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to understand how all those mechanics interact with one-another without a step-by step explanation on how to play the game.
The GOAL system is a step in the right direction but ultimately not enough because it doesn't tell you what are the requirements for getting the effects it wants you to trigger.

It honestly made me think about when I wanted to learn how to play Jack-o-Ninetails. A huge pain in the butt to comprehend the basic mechanics, which was made even more frustrating by the fact that the game didn't need to be this obtuse to begin with because the systems are complex enough to be a challenge on their own.

In both cases the fantasy being sold is excellent with great situations but burried under a confusing and opaque learning curve.
But at least when I was trying to learn Jack-o-Ninetails I could feel when I was on the right track.
Here I could be doing the "correct" thing and still feel like no progress is being made somehow, that's very weird. And since I'm not 100% confident I'm indeed doing the right thing, I start questioning myself and wondering why nothing is changing.

And reading the reviews for this game, I feel validated in this opinion because many of the 4-5 star ratings also point out all those issues as massive pains in the butt to deal with.

But... when it works, it's fantastic, and that I also agree on. There were some very special moments that happened in my short period playing it (3-4h)
I'll keep trying, but I'm losing hope.

The sad part is, making a tutorial would actually be pretty easy, the game itself already has the commentary system, so all they need to do to make a tutorial is to make a built in save-file tied to a tutorial button which is an entire game done with the commentary system active explaining all mechanics as they come up and stuff. Admittedly I've never used the commentary system so maybe it'd be a bit harder than I'd think, but the system for it is in place so all it is is a matter of the dev just playing through a single play game. Hell, I think a while back someone in this thread actually did do this themselves, it's just that the save is super outdated and no longer works.

And yeah, it really sucks that the game isn't always super clear whether you're doing the right or wrong thing, which is especially prevalent when dealing with T3 and T4 breaks. Because T3 and T4 breaks cant be done in a single battle, it's really not obvious whether or not you're building up trauma/punisher effectiveness at a good rate unless you end up having an amazing battle and immediately dealing enough trauma to T3 break all four vulnerabilities at once (then cry when you realize it was on a Chosen you were trying to distort but aren't in a position to distort right away forcing you to reload a save) or something.

 

[dekeche]

The comment system may not be working.... I've actually tried making a tutorial, but couldn't figure out how to read back the comments, so was unable to verify that it was working.

 

[McHuman]

The comment system may not be working.... I've actually tried making a tutorial, but couldn't figure out how to read back the comments, so was unable to verify that it was working.

Did you have it set to Read/Write and not just Write in the options?

 

[Antivash]

The sad part is, making a tutorial would actually be pretty easy, the game itself already has the commentary system, so all they need to do to make a tutorial is to make a built in save-file tied to a tutorial button which is an entire game done with the commentary system active explaining all mechanics as they come up and stuff. Admittedly I've never used the commentary system so maybe it'd be a bit harder than I'd think, but the system for it is in place so all it is is a matter of the dev just playing through a single play game. Hell, I think a while back someone in this thread actually did do this themselves, it's just that the save is super outdated and no longer works.

I may take a crack at figuring out how the comment thing works and attempting a tutorial out of it a bit later. I was poking around in the decompiled source code with Recaf (which isn't ideal, considering compiling in Java is lossy, so decompiling is never 100% accurate) to see if I can work out the actual triggers, but stopped a few hours ago. Arknights Contingency Contract 12 event went live and I got distracted with that. I might pick it back up after a few hours of smashing my face into this brick wall, if the concussions dont destroy my memory first.

Hurrah for trading one source of frustration for another.

And yeah, it really sucks that the game isn't always super clear whether you're doing the right or wrong thing, which is especially prevalent when dealing with T3 and T4 breaks. Because T3 and T4 breaks cant be done in a single battle, it's really not obvious whether or not you're building up trauma/punisher effectiveness at a good rate unless you end up having an amazing battle and immediately dealing enough trauma to T3 break all four vulnerabilities at once (then cry when you realize it was on a Chosen you were trying to distort but aren't in a position to distort right away forcing you to reload a save) or something.

Honestly, I think most of the T4's are fine as long as you are paying attention. They have the "+XXX% parasitism" things attached to the appropriate adaption that increases it. The only one I think might need mentioning is something like "Tier 4 effectiveness increase when a Chosen uses the corresponding adaption, with Drain's detonate adaption only triggering if a chosen is captured by a commander or forsaken.

 

[McHuman]

I may take a crack at figuring out how the comment thing works and attempting a tutorial out of it a bit later. I was poking around in the decompiled source code with Recaf (which isn't ideal, considering compiling in Java is lossy, so decompiling is never 100% accurate) to see if I can work out the actual triggers, but stopped a few hours ago. Arknights Contingency Contract 12 event went live and I got distracted with that. I might pick it back up after a few hours of smashing my face into this brick wall, if the concussions dont destroy my memory first.

Yeah, I haven't bothered going for Risk 18 on CC 12 yet, smashing my head into that brick wall doesn't seem like a fun way to spend my day right now.

Honestly, I think most of the T4's are fine as long as you are paying attention. They have the "+XXX% parasitism" things attached to the appropriate adaption that increases it. The only one I think might need mentioning is something like "Tier 4 effectiveness increase when a Chosen uses the corresponding adaption, with Drain's detonate adaption only triggering if a chosen is captured by a commander or forsaken.

Well I more so meant a good rate to build up the effectiveness per day. For example early on I thought Drain effectiveness was just suppose to build up super slow, not cause I didn't know detonate only happened when captured by a Commander, but because I just didn't realize that the Drain gain increase from INJU levels is significantly more than the other T4s with their circumstances, making it far more efficient to use all 3 commander captures on one Chosen instead of one for all three.

 

[anonwk3]

So like many here I have tried to get into this game I download it every odd update to see if I can finally "get it" as it were I've used guides the goal system items etc all ending in failure
So here my question after lots of messing around with the custom team options is there an optimum team for a first run?
I usually try to create a Captain America type leader a Vegeta type arsehole and a Yamcha but that grouping always beats me.

So now i'm going Drill girl Tsundere, Luffy and Krillin I guess they're a little easier but still hand me my arse in the final battle any tips here?

 

[Dasneaky]

so how do i get the choosen to join me?

 

[McHuman]

So like many here I have tried to get into this game I download it every odd update to see if I can finally "get it" as it were I've used guides the goal system items etc all ending in failure
So here my question after lots of messing around with the custom team options is there an optimum team for a first run?
I usually try to create a Captain America type leader a Vegeta type arsehole and a Yamcha but that grouping always beats me.

So now i'm going Drill girl Tsundere, Luffy and Krillin I guess they're a little easier but still hand me my arse in the final battle any tips here?

Honestly, strategy matters more than the specific Chosen, as while yes the Chosen may change your strategy some, the broad strokes are generally the same. I wrote a general early game guide a couple weeks ago that might help, and a couple days ago wrote this overview of some mechanics/modifiers and some more explanation for the strategy in my little guide. Though I will say a Chosen very weak to INJU damage and ensuring no Chosen are completely immune to PLEA damage (or really any damage type, but PLEA in particular) will make things a bit easier, as a Chosen very weak to INJU damage can be very quickly brought to T2 breaks while PLEA damage is helps with getting bigger subsequent surrounds.

so how do i get the choosen to join me?

In the Final Battle (Day 50 for a normal game) you have to lower a Chosen's Resolve to 0% then they'll automatically become a Forsaken.

 

[Dasneaky]

Honestly, strategy matters more than the specific Chosen, as while yes the Chosen may change your strategy some, the broad strokes are generally the same. I wrote a general early game guide a couple weeks ago that might help, and a couple days ago wrote this overview of some mechanics/modifiers and some more explanation for the strategy in my little guide. Though I will say a Chosen very weak to INJU damage and ensuring no Chosen are completely immune to PLEA damage (or really any damage type, but PLEA in particular) will make things a bit easier, as a Chosen very weak to INJU damage can be very quickly brought to T2 breaks while PLEA damage is helps with getting bigger subsequent surrounds.



In the Final Battle (Day 50 for a normal game) you have to lower a Chosen's Resolve to 0% then they'll automatically become a Forsaken.

have a like good sir for some1 new to the game

 

[anonwk3]

Honestly, strategy matters more than the specific Chosen, as while yes the Chosen may change your strategy some, the broad strokes are generally the same. I wrote a general early game guide a couple weeks ago that might help, and a couple days ago wrote this overview of some mechanics/modifiers and some more explanation for the strategy in my little guide. Though I will say a Chosen very weak to INJU damage and ensuring no Chosen are completely immune to PLEA damage (or really any damage type, but PLEA in particular) will make things a bit easier, as a Chosen very weak to INJU damage can be very quickly brought to T2 breaks while PLEA damage is helps with getting bigger subsequent surrounds.



In the Final Battle (Day 50 for a normal game) you have to lower a Chosen's Resolve to 0% then they'll automatically become a Forsaken.

So i'm guessing from what you're saying here that part of the reason i've started to find the game is easier is because i've removed pure paragon types (usually high morality high innocence) as well those have breaks built in. It also seems like I spread the damage too much I read somewhere HATE was a go to iNJU vul chosen is this still the case?

 

[SuperSkippy]

The sad part is, making a tutorial would actually be pretty easy, the game itself already has the commentary system, so all they need to do to make a tutorial is to make a built in save-file tied to a tutorial button which is an entire game done with the commentary system active explaining all mechanics as they come up and stuff. Admittedly I've never used the commentary system so maybe it'd be a bit harder than I'd think, but the system for it is in place so all it is is a matter of the dev just playing through a single play game. Hell, I think a while back someone in this thread actually did do this themselves, it's just that the save is super outdated and no longer works.

And yeah, it really sucks that the game isn't always super clear whether you're doing the right or wrong thing, which is especially prevalent when dealing with T3 and T4 breaks. Because T3 and T4 breaks cant be done in a single battle, it's really not obvious whether or not you're building up trauma/punisher effectiveness at a good rate unless you end up having an amazing battle and immediately dealing enough trauma to T3 break all four vulnerabilities at once (then cry when you realize it was on a Chosen you were trying to distort but aren't in a position to distort right away forcing you to reload a save) or something.

I've considered doing this multiple times, but I'm personally of the opinion that it needs more than this actually. This game could be made a lot more accessible with a "real" tutorial that interrupts game text to point out what is actually important on the screen for the game state.

You just bought Psychic Reading? When you click that Info button, something should break the normal flow of the game to explain the parts you're seeing now.

A Chosen came in with pre-broken Mor T2? Draw attention to the moves that they're doing and how they're different from the other Chosen.

A Distortion Plan? What's that, and why should the player care?

You got some Forsaken now? Great, let's start clicking training buttons and figure out which buttons are good to click. What does it mean to "train a Forsaken"?

In the end, this is a beta, so it's not going to appeal to everyone. I can understand the appeal of not making a tutorial-based fixed campaign while game features are still very much being added.

 

[Celerarity]

I've considered doing this multiple times, but I'm personally of the opinion that it needs more than this actually. This game could be made a lot more accessible with a "real" tutorial that interrupts game text to point out what is actually important on the screen for the game state.

You just bought Psychic Reading? When you click that Info button, something should break the normal flow of the game to explain the parts you're seeing now.

A Chosen came in with pre-broken Mor T2? Draw attention to the moves that they're doing and how they're different from the other Chosen.

A Distortion Plan? What's that, and why should the player care?

You got some Forsaken now? Great, let's start clicking training buttons and figure out which buttons are good to click. What does it mean to "train a Forsaken"?

In the end, this is a beta, so it's not going to appeal to everyone. I can understand the appeal of not making a tutorial-based fixed campaign while game features are still very much being added.

Honestly all of that sounds like it could be done with a youtube video, no need for custom coding.

 

[McHuman]

So i'm guessing from what you're saying here that part of the reason i've started to find the game is easier is because i've removed pure paragon types (usually high morality high innocence) as well those have breaks built in. It also seems like I spread the damage too much I read somewhere HATE was a go to iNJU vul chosen is this still the case?

If by Pure Paragon type you mean someone with 100 in a vulnerability, then yes removing those would make the game easier as with 100 in a vulnerability they'd take no base damage to that vulnerability's circumstance damage (only taking the bonus damage from ANGST), the opposite is also true, someone with 0 in a vulnerability would take no base damage in the associated trauma. Removing Chosen with pre-broken vulnerabilities also helps a little.

As for spreading damage, it is actually better to spread damage as they all provide damage boosting modifiers, and it is ideal to get both HATE and INJU leveled. It's just that a Chosen specifically weak to INJU damage is good to target early on as INJU damage has a bigger modifier than HATE but reserved for circumstances, which is better early as T1 and T2 breaks depend on circumstance damage and not trauma damage. HATE however is generally better than INJU in the mid to late game as HATE applies to all damage which lets you build up more Openings while still boosting circumstance leveling, but they're both very good to level still.

I've considered doing this multiple times, but I'm personally of the opinion that it needs more than this actually. This game could be made a lot more accessible with a "real" tutorial that interrupts game text to point out what is actually important on the screen for the game state.

You just bought Psychic Reading? When you click that Info button, something should break the normal flow of the game to explain the parts you're seeing now.

A Chosen came in with pre-broken Mor T2? Draw attention to the moves that they're doing and how they're different from the other Chosen.

A Distortion Plan? What's that, and why should the player care?

You got some Forsaken now? Great, let's start clicking training buttons and figure out which buttons are good to click. What does it mean to "train a Forsaken"?

In the end, this is a beta, so it's not going to appeal to everyone. I can understand the appeal of not making a tutorial-based fixed campaign while game features are still very much being added.

That's fair, a tutorial Single Play tutorial game would need to be basically re-made every time there is a gameplay focused update.

Honestly all of that sounds like it could be done with a youtube video, no need for custom coding.

The thing there is, a video would need to be remade with new updates, while setting up the code to do what they said is a one time set up that can then be easily modified with each update.

 

[Celerarity]

The thing there is, a video would need to be remade with new updates, while setting up the code to do what they said is a one time set up that can then be easily modified with each update.

Everything from the existing comment system to chosen clothes has broken with updates; there's no "one time" feature in a game that is still having its core code developed. Also, "easily" and "modified with each update" don't belong next to each other in a sentence. The more plates you have to keep in the air every time you make a change the slower you can make them.

Additionally, videos don't have to be identical in every way to the current version at any point in time. They just have to be close enough to answer questions people might have after reading the documentation and looking at the game themselves. They're definitely the lower maintenance option.